Anyone done one?
Done a bit of research into who runs them and where. 3 of us want to learn basic crampon, ice axe and arrest technique as well as avalanche risk assessment and nav – lots of outfits offer this in a 2 day course for around £150 not including accommodation. A couple do it in the Lakes which would be hugely beneficial in terms of logistics as we’d be coming up from East Mids. Most however operate from Scotland where the snow is more likely.
Driving to either Glencoe, Fort Bill or Aviemore is a ball ache in terms of time even though we could split the driving. In some ways it makes more sense to fly to Inverness and taxi it to Aviemore where you’re pretty much guaranteed snow – plus you get up to the snow easy on the fenicular railway. Obviously you’re then talking another £100 plus for flights each. Same craic for GC & FB…flying to Glasgow still leaves a 2 hr plus drive but you’re almost guaranteed snow.

The Lakes – one outfit says if no snow they will brush up on nav and refund half the money. The other, Summitreks, charge a fair chunk more at £250. The guy Ron says in 15 years of running the course from Helvellyn he has never not had snow – when I asked what he’d do if no snow he just suggested booking it last minute which isn’t ideal as one on us works in Bristol. So, using Summitreks is an expensive risk as I see it.

Do we: risk the £150 Lakes driving up after work Fri then drive back when done – 3 hrs each way OR go proper north where there’s a much better chance of doing what you’ve paid for but with all the added faff abs cost involved plus extra days off work potentially (I want to keep hold of these as much as I can for actual holiday time).

Dilemma. Anyone have any experience of said courses etc you could impart? Will be chatting about this over NYE beers tonight so anything I take to the party (as it were) would be great…cheers

PS I tore my Achilles 3 years ago – will this put a lot of strain on it?

We went to Plas Y Brenin in Snowdonia a few years back. Might be worth checking the snow stats? We had loads the weekend we went.

It was this course.

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses-detail.php?coursecode=WWM01&irisref=248

£185 without accommodation and £245 with. It’s worth checking the reviews for an idea of what they do if there isn’t any snow.

Iain at Kendal mountaineering is a good friend…

Worth a try?
Lakes WInter Courses

Give Paul a call.

http://mountainmagic.org.uk

Imo, Cairngorms are most reliable snow and varied options for winter training days.

I done one of these one day courses a good few years back and although basic in terms of content it covered enough to get me comfortable winter hillwalking. Never felt the need to do any more.

https://www.tiso.com/courses/winter-skills

Edit: Although the info states the courses start on a Friday – this is just a meet up on Friday evening after hours in the shop to discuss arrangements and go through kit etc for the following day. On the Saturday morninig you make your own way to the argeed destination to meet at the start time. You can arrange lift shares etc on the Friday evening if enough people are booked on.

Just copied this from mountainmagic facebook.

Winter Skills for Mountain Walking – 10% Discount!

One of the best value mountain courses in Scotland just got even better. We have 3 spaces left on our course in January, there are just 4 weeks to go, Christmas is coming and we’d love to fill it, so have £50 off on us…

Now the price is just £450 with 1 instructor to 6 clients, five quality mountain days, informative evening workshops, seven nights in a comfortable chalet and all your healthy food too.

You’ll have five quality mountain days with a professional instructor and much more. With seven nights the chalet you can enjoy a more relaxed and flexible approach to your course. You’ll have an extra day to play with, so you can rest tired legs in the middle of the week or avoid the occasional storm that’s a bit too gnarly to walk and climb in.

The food is based on your preferences and prepared at flexible times, so we are free to follow the best of the weather. We could start early, walk with the moon and the stars, see a beautiful mountain dawn and be back in the chalet before a storm, or we could sleep in through bad weather and enjoy a stunning summit sunset before dinner.

Giving you the skills and experience to enjoy the mountains is the main aim, closely followed by the best possible opportunity to enjoy the mountains’ magic in the company of like-minded people. We love to bring people together to experience the beauty of nature, the excitement of adventure and share the happiness they bring.

Winter mountaineers for twenty years or more and qualified members of the Association of Mountaineering Instructors, we love to see you enjoying yourself in the mountains and it gives us great pleasure to see you develop into competent and confident mountaineers. Over the course of the week, you’ll have the opportunity to develop and practice the following:

• Selecting the right winter clothing and equipment for comfort and safety.
• Using avalanche reports, weather forecasts and timing to plan your day well.
• Understanding how snow pack forms and changes to assess avalanche risk.
• Navigating in the dark, snow and a full white-out with efficiency and speed.
Winter Skills
• Moving in balance on easy ice, rock and snow with an ice axe and crampons.
• Using an ice axe to stop slips with the self-belay and self-arrest techniques.
• Minimising risks like loose rock, cornices, strong winds and snow bridges.
• Action to take in an emergency and building an improvised snow shelter.

The size of your group will be sociable and small enough for you to ask questions and benefit from 1:1 coaching time. Ice axes and crampons are included in the price and you can hire winter boots if you need them. For the full kit lists, take a look at the links to the course brochures on the Mountain Magic website and please feel free to ask for advice on new purchases.

Course Brochure:

http://mountainmagic.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Scottish-Winter-Skills.pdf

Customer Feedback:

“Thank you! It was an awesome week and I am wishing we could do it all again.” – Frances

“A brilliant week with amazing memories, breath-taking scenery and new winter skills.” – Roger

“Truly amazing! I came out of the valley feeling uplifted and in awe of the mountains.” – Georgie

“Even if the weather hadn’t been so perfect, the week would have been spot on for me.” – Jan

“A fantastic week with lots of special memories. I’d highly recommend Mountain Magic to anyone”. – Claire

“Thanks for a great course. I really enjoyed it! Good food, good company and I learned a lot.” – Gavin

Course Date:

13th – 20th January

Booking:

Message from this page, call 0300 030 1045 or email winter@mountainmagic.org to book your place.

We’ll send you a 15% discount code that’s valid in all Cotswold Outdoor stores and all Snow & Rock stores too.

We’re looking forward to meeting you! 🙂

As Matt suggests, it’s basically a gamble. Cairngorm is the most likely place to have (the various types of) snow and ice. Glenmore has an excellent reputation too.

I’d say it’s worth the investment.

Why not take a bit extra time, drive up with your bikes, and do some riding in the area too?

We went to Plas Y Brenin in Snowdonia a few years back

They decamp to Glen Coe for the winter season to run their winter courses (or at least always did).

I did all my courses with PyB or Glenmore Lodge as being our National Mountain Centres you generally get the best instruction and VFM (subsidised by the tax payer). I’m sure there are other good guides out there, but PyB and GL specialise in teaching / training so are probably the best bet.

This is the kind of thing that should be done properly or not at all. I’m sure there are legitimate alternatives but personally I wouldn’t look past Glenmore Lodge. I’ve done 2 courses there now, including 5 day winter skills, and they’ve both been outstanding.

I’m sure there are legitimate alternatives

Any MIC (Mountain Instructor Certificate) is qualified to teach winter walking / climbing skills. They churn out a few dozen each year between them (PYB/GL).

The main advantage of PYB/GL is (or at least was) that the course was subsidised by the tax payer so you only paid a fraction of the real cost. They also both offer decent accommodation / restaurant / bar etc. If you were an MIC setting up to compete, you’d struggle to match their pricing.

I did mine with Jagged Globe in Glencoe, but that was 15 years ago. I’d second/third/whatever the advice that the Cairngorms are likely to he more reliable for decent conditions than Lochaber which is warmer and wetter. Work sent me on a course at Glenmore Lodge and they were excellent.

To be fair you’d travel a fair bit on either course (GL in Aviemore / PYB based in GC), each will visit the other side of Scotland chasing good conditions or meet in the middle at Creag Meagaidh (sp).

Done a bit of digging.
Glenmore Lodge is favourite at the mo purely because of the higher chance of snow.
Flying to Inverness adds cost but far less pain than driving. They do an all-in package too which appeals – food, digs and kit.

Plas Y Brenin off similar package at similar cost and obviously easier to get to.
Critically though snow cannot be guaranteed and they run the course even if there’s no snow.
I want to finish the course knowing how to use crampons and do an ice axe arrest so if no snow in N Wales I’d have to book another one which I’d be loathe to do.

Makes total sense paying more and getting snow – to me and my mate there seems little point in doing a WSC with no snow….waiting to hear back off GL tomorrow as the Jocks are still off drinking Irn Bru*

*no offence to any reading Scottishers 😉

I’ve done the Glenmore course and on the first night we had 50 cms of snow. This turned out to be quite limiting on what we could do due to the averlanche risk.

Plas Y Brenin isn’t necessarily easier to get to if there is snow and they don’t grit the A5.

There wasn’t much navigation instruction on the PYB course. Day 1 was kicking steps, crampons and ice axe, and quite good fun. Day 2 was just an unpleasant route march in zero visibility up a hill in boots three sizes too big. Very pretty for the first and last 100m. If you’re fitter than me then you may enjoy it more.

Take ski goggles. I never needed my map or compass.

Plas Y Brenin isn’t necessarily easier to get to if there is snow and they don’t grit the A5

A5 is gritted fairly well.
I was there in December with the nice bit of snow. Admittedly the final part of the drive on friday was nightmarish with heavy snow showers after the gritters had been and delayed the drive back until the monday but it was pretty clear (reason I stayed was I was more worried about how well south of England would handle the lesser amounts of snow).
I would go for Scotland though since better chance of good conditions (either with Glenmore lodge or PYB on tour).

Yesterday on Helvellyn (weather line pic)

Plas Y Brenin off similar package at similar cost and obviously easier to get to.
Critically though snow cannot be guaranteed and they run the course even if there’s no snow.
I want to finish the course knowing how to use crampons and do an ice axe arrest so if no snow in N Wales I’d have to book another one which I’d be loathe to do.

You didn’t do much digging, they offer Scottish winter courses….

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses-scottish-winter.php

There wasn’t much navigation instruction on the PYB course

Which one did you do?

Thank you Mr Flap – I meant general research amongst lots of providers to get to this point, including flights, trains etc etc. PYB Scottish winter skills is 5 days, not the same as the Welsh 2 day offering.

PS I tore my Achilles 3 years ago – will this put a lot of strain on it?

Unless I’ve missed it then nobody has answered this. So I will. Front pointing puts a lot of strain on calf muscles and Achilles tendon, as in shed loads. I’ve used leather boots, plastic mountaineering boots and ski touring boots. The ski-touring boots limited the ability to drop the heel but were the best from the fatigue point of view.

I suggest findding a telegraph pole to practice on before starting up a long pitch in the hope your tendon will hold up.

I did this around ten years ago with gelenmore lodge and could not rate them more highly . We were lucky with conditions . Lady instructor was great , level was just right and conditions and scenergy were perfect . I wore a borrowed pair of Plastic boots for the week , which they lent me . Woukd do it in scarpa mantas if I did again , as super stiff plastic boots were overkill as nothing was too steep . Point five gully was the steepest climb we did .

Glenmore Lodge, and hope you don’t get a repeat of the storm of 86. 🙂

Martin Moran’s book ‘Scotland’s Winter Mountains’ is a brilliant way to get you inspired.

There wasn’t much navigation instruction on the PYB course

Which one did you do? [/quote]

The weekend Welsh Winter Skills one.

One other thing – make sure your boots fit. PyB had a deal with Scarpa and Scarpa boots have a narrow toe box, so they kitted me out in size 13s with three layers of socks. Don’t let them do that to you. Even if the instructor is outside revving the minibus and the stores guys are all busy helping the attractive young woman insist on getting boots that fit.

Unless I’ve missed it then nobody has answered this. So I will. Front pointing puts a lot of strain on calf muscles and Achilles tendon, as in shed loads.

I suggest findding a telegraph pole to practice on before starting up a long pitch in the hope your tendon will hold up.

I doubt you’d be doing much proper front-pointing on a basic winter mountain walking skills course, but you will be walking up steep snow slopes, sometimes kicking in with the toe of your boot. There are crampon techniques to avoid this, but on steep slopes without crampons, it’ll probably be part of the course. I’d go walk up some steep hills toe first and see how you cope.

I’m not sure anyone’s said this, but if you can, go for a week-long course rather than a two-dayer. You’ll cover stuff more thoroughly and in the case of Scotland, it makes the long journey more reasonable.

I’ve done a couple of Glenmore Lodge courses over the years and like others above, I’d thoroughly recommend them. There’s a high likelihood of snow in the norther corries of Cairngorm, the instruction and resources/facilities are excellent, there’s a whiff of history about the place and it’s excellent value for money. Snow conditions tend to be more reliable Feb/March, but our winters are so random these days, that it’s a bit of a lottery really.

There wasn’t much navigation instruction on the PYB course

Which one did you do?

The weekend Welsh Winter Skills one.[/quote]

OK, on a two day course I can sort of see why they didn’t do much as to do it properly you’d spend 2 days solid on it.

Personally I would recommend a 5 day course as you’ll have time to get competent on everything rather than just brush over things. Navigating in 100mph winds in a white out on the Cairngorm plateau takes some practice!

Personally I would recommend a 5 day course as you’ll have time to get competent on everything rather than just brush over things.

Good point. If it’s a 2 day course and you are having to travel/walk to the snow then your actual time on it will be severely constrained.

My first (winter) course was a 6 day Intro to Winter Mountaineering at Glenmore Lodge (early 90s). Taught me loads of stuff I still use in the hills every time I’m out. IIRC it cost something like £525, but it was a long time ago…

The instructors were both UIAGM Guides, Chris Forrest and Dave something or other…

The most useful thing I learnt was their seven navigation steps for each leg / bearing….

1. Estimate the bearing
2. Take the bearing (1 & 2 are to help avoid having the map upside down eg in strong winds and getting 180 deg out as you’re being battered)
3. Measure the length and convert to paces
4. Estimate the time (always use two metrics for length of the leg)
5. Work out the gradient (up / down / flat)
6. Note any features eg streams, fences
7. Note any danger areas eg cliffs etc

You pace and time each leg, walking on a bearing, checking the gradient and features off as you go along.

I’m looking at 2 day courses myself. I’ve got a place to stay already so just want some instructor based advice on winter walking – crampons, self arrest, reading conditions etc

The glenmore lodge course is £225, more expensive than most. It doesn’t seem to tally with the fact they’re subsidised. What more do you get with them compared with others, apart from lunch being provided?

Edit – I also know they do equipment hire for free, which is good as my boots are only B1. But not sure that covers the difference. Cairngormadventureguides are £140 for two days

I was looking at GL too. Their inclusive course in £275.
For that you get digs on Fri and Sat nights…all food Sat and brek and lunch Sun.
You buy food Fri night.
They’ll pick you up and drop you off in Aviemore (Fri/Sun after course).
You can’t stay Sun night.
All kit is part of cost.

We ended up hiring a guide in the Lakes in the end – 17/18 Feb.
Risky as snow not guaranteed but no snow means no course and no money changes hands – call made on the Thurs/Fri before…he’ll monitor the weather as lives there.
Got a flat rate for weekend so the more that take part the cheaper per person – 2 of us at the mo. Trying to get some others keen to join in.
Based around Helvellyn.
YH booked and sort food ourselves.
This works as we don’t want to give up much holiday to get it done – flying to Inverness means 2 full holiday days.
If no snow we’ll just have a good walk anyway and poss do course in Scotland later or next year.
We’re happy with the potential compromise.

EDIT…just read you’re not inclusive.
Most others are £150ish for 2 days.
Seems the subsidising comes into play when you go inclusive then to get digs and all food for just £50 more.

I don’t know if it’s still the case but GL used to include evening lectures/training once you were off the hill (short days and all that).

Plus, they often get up the ski road when it’s otherwise closed to the public.

I can highly recommend GL, you need to be the best of the best to work there (same wit PyB). Plus they take CPD seriously. A real centre of excellence.

Also, Cairngorms is the most reliable place for snow and the plateau (in poor viability) is about as challenging as it gets navigation wise.

The glenmore lodge course is £225, more expensive than most. It doesn’t seem to tally with the fact they’re subsidised. What more do you get with them compared with others, apart from lunch being provided?

Does that include accommodation?

We ended up hiring a guide in the Lakes in the end – 17/18 Feb.

How much and how big is the group?

GL is £225 without accomodation, £265 with accomodation

I’m going to go up with my famiy and have already booked self catering for 5 nights – I’ll naff off in the daytime

My b1 boots might not be enough so I might need to borrow B2 boots. That’s £12-15 from a shop, but free from GL

But GL is charging 50% more than other providers I’ve found, which seems a lot! I can get a weekend of winter skills and an ice axe for the same money from another outfit

The subsidy seems to be in the accomodation, which works out as very cheap, rather than the instruction

I’m not berating them, just trying to understand what 50% more really gets you

I’m not berating them, just trying to understand what 50% more really gets you

I think you’re right in that the accommodation is disproportionately subsidised, but given that most people doing Glenmore course will be residential, that makes a certain amount of sense.

What you are getting is top-level instruction from carefully chosen, full-time, professional instructors, who historically have included some of the best winter mountaineers around from an institution with decades of experience and expertise. I guess in essence, you’re paying for the peace of mind of knowing that you’ll get top-level instruction and the back-up of a well-oiled machine.

Not saying that individual instructors elsewhere and smaller guiding companies aren’t good, some of them are superb, but with the likes of PyB or GL you’re getting a pretty much guaranteed level of excellence. I don’t know anyone who’s been to either national mountain centre and not come away satisfied.

They’ll also provide pretty much all the equipment you’ll need. Btw, when you’re practicing self arrest, it may be worth borrowing some lodge shell clothing for the day rather than risk trashing your own stuff. You certainly used to be able to do that. And yes, you’ll need stiffer than B1-rated boots for step kicking in neve etc.

I’m not berating them, just trying to understand what 50% more really gets you

I guess the main difference is a well (fairly) paid full time instructor with a pension, sickness pay, CPD, paid training etc vs a self employed MIC who does instruction as a side line / WE hobby and works in an outdoor shop selling fleeces 9-5.

The glenmore lodge course is £225, more expensive than most. It doesn’t seem to tally with the fact they’re subsidised. What more do you get with them compared with others, apart from lunch being provided?

Instructors who are paid a decent, permanent salary.*
Unlike the rest of the outdoor world who seem happy still to work 6 days a week and earn £20k a year.
.
.
.
.
*The reason they get this is because they are at the top of their game – in experience, qualifications and staying up to date. I have a friend who spends summer as one of their MTB folk and winter leading ski-touring and winter walking courses. It isn’t unusual for him to summit Cairngorm twice in a day with clients on ski-touring courses, after a breakfast/dawn raid on the summit ‘for fun’ before work. He is MIA, MIC, Winter and Summer ML, EuropeanML SPA (and course director for most of those as well); MTB UKCC L3, MTB and road DSU, TrailCycleLeader, Cytech and course director, UKCC L3 Canoe, BASP/FIPs trainer, BASI coach, sailor etc etc That is likely 25k cost of attaining those qualifications.

I echo what everyone else has said about GL and PYB. Their instruction, equipment and administration is superb. Coupled with pretty much guaranteed snow in Cairngorms means that GL is the only place I would go for winter training.

How much and how big is the group?

Our instructor is charging £360 for the 2 days.
That cost is split between however many I can get to join us…at the mo it’s costing us £180 as just 2 of us.
Trying to get a couple of others which will half the cost.

As Scotroutes says, GL do evening lectures too and the facility itself is superb. Decent grub and local beers too. The accessibility of the high mountains really maximises hill time too.