Why can't social care be funded through National Insurance?

Home Forum Chat Forum Why can't social care be funded through National Insurance?

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 69 total)
  • Why can't social care be funded through National Insurance?
  • Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    I can't understand why it can't be done by putting a charge against the property of those that own one.

    simonfbarnes
    Member

    £10k, more than enough to pay for social care

    for a couple of weeks…

    coffeeking
    Member

    indeed social care is vastly expensive. Maybe an age-based cull?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Nick – the problem with that is it needs to be paid for now – not in 40 years time. So funding is need now. Also all the national insurance is already spent on things

    also I real really doubt the tory figures. £8000 goes nowhere – that relies on people who are not going to use it taking out the insurance ( even then its pie in the sky) which is if it is not compulsory will not happen.

    Wwaswas – that is more or less the current position.

    Again – its not rocket science – either people pay for social care thru selling their assets or there is a huge amount of money needed from elsewhere – worth a couple of p on income tax for example

    simonfbarnes
    Member

    Maybe an age-based cull?

    we consider it a kindness to our pets…

    I'd much rather be culled than degenerate into pathetic dementia!

    coffeeking
    Member

    Nick – the problem with that is it needs to be paid for now – not in 40 years time. So funding is need now. Also all the national insurance is already spent on things

    Ahh, so bad planning and preparation by the current government?

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    I'd much rather be culled than degenerate into pathetic dementia!

    That needs to go on a T-shirt!

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    I expect most people would look at 'age related cull' and place themsleves firmly in the 'not yet cullable' camp!

    Logans Run anyone?

    wwaswas – Member
    I expect most people would look at 'age related cull' and place themsleves firmly in the 'not yet cullable' camp!

    Logans Run anyone?

    Only if I get Jenny Agutter…

    Junkyard
    Member

    I'd much rather be culled than degenerate into pathetic dementia!

    How many votes do we need to say you have early dementia before we can come round with the bombers?

    The name death tax is just to get people all emotive…will you really need the money from the sale of your house in the afterlife? Having the care free at the point of delivery and paid for from your estate on death does not seem that unreasonable a compromise to me.
    We cannot afford care without a tax hike and it would mean workers now paying for the care of those not working now [ as well as their pensions …the money did not go into a fund]. It will be costly….very costly
    Honestly who is going to pay the optional 8k insurance and you cannot get care for free unless your family do it Love the Tories spending pledges, tax cuts , budgets slashed ….does not seem at all possible to those who can count.
    A shame that every complicated issues descends into a political dog fight rather than us all being adult about it and making some hard choices in order to work out the best way to pay for the increasingly elderly population.

    starseven
    Member

    Limit health care to people who have paid in the kitty and their relatives. Problem solved.

    uplink
    Member

    How many votes do we need to say you have early dementia before we can come round with the bombers?

    Just keep things simple

    You've got 9 darts to hit double top
    If you manage it between attempts 1 & 6, you're fine
    7 & 9 you're on a warning
    over 9 – you're out

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    Has anyone read David Willetts on this? I've not yet and suspect I should…

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    If you want to raise money from the taxes hit those that make billions.

    http://robinhoodtax.org.uk/

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    coffeeking – Member

    Nick – the problem with that is it needs to be paid for now – not in 40 years time. So funding is need now. Also all the national insurance is already spent on things

    Ahh, so bad planning and preparation by the current government?

    Nope – bad planning adn delivery from many goverments since the 60s.

    I started work in Care of the elderly in the 70s – virtually all provision was done by the state – either residential homes run by local government or NHS care. With the aging poulation this was increasingly under strain and underprovisioned. thatchers tory government took the decision that private care in the form of nursing homes should be the norm – paid for by the patients with state funds available for those who could not afford to pay. This leads to the sale of houses to pay for vcare.

    Some advantages in this – the NHS care was somewhat "one size fits all" and successive regulatory regimes have improved standards in the private homes all single room en suite now for example. You never got that in the NHS

    unfortunately for the last 20 years there has been huge pressure on costs as the state fees paid have not kept up with costs. This has led to downward pressure on wages meaning recruitment and retention of staff has become very difficult and thus quality of care has started to suffer.

    No political party will grasp this nettle – quality care costs, it has to be paid for from somewhere and any funding solution is unfair on someone.

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    A shame that every complicated issues descends into a political dog fight rather than us all being adult about it and making some hard choices in order to work out the best way to pay for the increasingly elderly population.

    The trouble is, any large sum of money changing hands between the populace and the government is going to be very very unpopular.

    I'd rather see people being able to hold onto the family home rather than being forced into selling it to pay for the 'death tax', finding a way to address the current shortfall whilst introducing a paye system would be good, but the shortfall is obviously a big problem.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    starseven – Member

    Limit health care to people who have paid in the kitty and their relatives. Problem solved.
    No health care for the person born with Downs syndrome then? NO healthcare for the children of young parents?

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    This leads to the sale of houses to pay for vcare.

    And the popularity of release equity schemes 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Nick – find some way to fund £30 000+ Pa cost of quality care?

    Why should the family home be left untouched? Its not the patient who benefits from this – its the children who inherit. You are asking the taxpayer to subsidise the inheritence of middleclass children.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    what TJ says, why should I not use my 'savings' (in the form of bricks and mortar) to fund my care in old age?

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    A has a house, which is worth lots of money. A wants to have quality residential care because he is old. He doesn't want to sell his house to pay for it, because he wants to leave it to his children when he dies. So he insists the money should be provided by someone else. Preferably everybody, including other people's children, who are trying to save up to buy houses.

    So A's children get a nice wodge of money at the expense of everybody who is working when A needs care.

    This is, quite bluntly, some of the most unfair and regressive taxation imaginable.

    coffeeking
    Member

    . You are asking the taxpayer to subsidise the inheritence of middleclass children.

    not just middle class though is it, it's not really a class thing at all, plenty of working class people own their own homes by retirement age.

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    You are asking the taxpayer to subsidise the inheritence of middleclass children.

    So taxpayers and middleclass parents are different people?

    All I'm suggesting is that everyone pays what is fair given their income, so a poverty stricken sink-estate terminally unemployable person pays nothing, owns nothing, sells nothing.

    A 'middleclass' professional earning £50k a year will subsidise them in all likelihood.

    I don't think anything is stopping anyone for using their means to pay for care in old age?

    DrP
    Member

    Eek – me and TJ agree!

    I feel very strongly that once someone is unable to manage in their own home and requires care, the 'un-needed' home becomes an assett to fund their care. Of course, this becomes complicated if a partner still lives there, and this is where the 'death tax' will cover.

    It would be 'nice' if the children could inherit the house, but it would also be 'nice' if santa gave me a new bike for christmas… Inheritance from your parents should only become a 'right' once you're [the parents]living needs have been met – if this requires freeing up cash from a house sale, so be it.

    There is little other option (apart from a crystal in your hand…)

    DrP

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    he insists the money should be provided by someone else

    so he hasn't paid any taxes or ni in his life?

    Junkyard
    Member

    I'd rather see people being able to hold onto the family home rather than being forced into selling it to pay for the 'death tax'

    they are selling their home to pay for health care after they have died it is not the same thing at all.
    Instead you want me[and other tax payers] to pay for someone who has some wealth in an asset worth hundreds of thousands of pounds so that they can die rich and pass it in to their kids.
    Like I said better if people could stay rational [and actually accurate]rather than get all emotove about a "death tax". You are alive and paying for your own care by using funds released from your assets when you die?

    EDIT:

    Nick – Member

    he insists the money should be provided by someone else

    so he hasn't paid any taxes or ni in his life?

    He has NOT paid taxes or NI that contribute to free health care for the elderly ?

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    All this talk of death taxes, £8000 optional insurance at 65 etc just seems overly complicated to me.

    Why not just add a penny to the pound in employee national insurance, and then provide a 'free' service for all, if some people want to go private then like health care they can.

    If the average wage is £25k a year, a person will earn a £1m over 40 years, 1% of this is £10k, more than enough to pay for social care (if the Cons numbers for an £8k optional insurance scheme at 65 are correct…), plus it's means tested all the way through life and is therefore fairer, isn't it?

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    He has Nick, but they have been used to pay for things other than the escalating cost of his care. If there was a current massive NI surplus haging around waiting to pay for his care now then we wouldn't be discussing this. 🙂

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    I'm not getting emotive about a death tax, what do you want to call it?

    I don't want you and other taxpayers to pay for someone, I want them to pay for themselves through taxation during their lifetime, just like we all do for our National Health Care system (which some use more than others).

    Putting aside the problem with a shortfall right now, why isn't that fairer? Is it because people are stressing over not getting 'what they have paid for' if they die early?

    starseven
    Member

    starseven – Member

    Limit health care to people who have paid in the kitty and their relatives. Problem solved.

    No health care for the person born with Downs syndrome then? NO healthcare for the children of young parents?

    "and their relatives" I'm sure its within our wit to structure eligibilty fairly.

    Why should I pay for dossers and parasites.

    thegreatape
    Member

    If people were prepared to look after their own elderly parents when they could no longer look after themselves, there would still be a nice inheritance for them.

    (I appreciate that people's needs vary and this wouldn't always be possible, but I bet in many cases it would).

    Junkyard
    Member

    I'm not getting emotive about a death tax, what do you want to call it?

    Well not a death tax repeatedly 🙄 it is not a death tax Are you being taxed for dieing or are you paying for your own care? I am not even certain you can accurately call it a tax. Inheritance tax is a tax for dieing this is NOT the same thing at all is it?

    National Health Care system

    What is this you are describing?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Nick – Member

    ……………….
    I don't want you and other taxpayers to pay for someone, I want them to pay for themselves through taxation during their lifetime, just like we all do for our National Health Care system (which some use more than others).

    ………..

    Its perfectly possible but would be more than a couple of pence on income tax in total – or a 50% tax on over £100 000 earners. Its an awful lot of money that is needed. folk will not vote for an increase in income tax either

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    starseven – Member

    "and their relatives" I'm sure its within our wit to structure eligibilty fairly.

    Why should I pay for dossers and parasites.

    go on then. You work out the eligibility criteria for who lives and who dies – and I will pick holes in it.

    Woman of 16 gives birth and dies in childbirth. Father is unidentified. Child is profoundly disabled and requires healthcare. Does he live or die?

    Talkemada
    Member

    Only if I get Jenny Agutter…

    Isn't there a scene in Logan's Run, where she gets her Fou-Fou out? I'm sure there is, there was when I saw it on telly years ago, but every time I've seen it since, there's no Fou-Fou. Maybe I just dreamt it.

    Premier Icon votchy
    Subscriber

    Right then, I'm off to sell my house then live in rented accomodation for the rest of my life and p1ss all my income up the wall and advise my children to do the same so when the day comes that I need care the state can pay for it like it should, I have paid in to the system all my working life (from age 16), why should I have to pay twice ie buy a house to pay for care later? Either we have a NHS or we have private health care. And as mentioned above, lets stop spending our money on other countries problems and sort out our own mess first, then when that is done we can start helping others. it's about time this country looked after those that put in to the system and start f*cking those that don't off back where they came from.

    Talkemada
    Member

    Votchy, you really need to learn to express yourself more, you know, say what you really mean… 😀

    breatheeasy
    Member

    Putting aside the problem with a shortfall right now, why isn't that fairer? Is it because people are stressing over not getting 'what they have paid for' if they die early?

    I think Votchy kinda summed it up (with some subtlety…).

    Difficult for people to feel it's a 'fair' system that they can sit in one bed when they are old beside some other scrounger who's not done a days work yet is getting his bed for free.

    The so-called 'death tax' is going to get loads of complaints that poor off people have had to sell the family house that their parents wanted to leave them because they couldn't afford the, say, £8000.

    I'm not really sure what the answer is. Maybe it could be an expansion of the NHS rather than paying over the odds for private nursing homes making a pretty penny for the owners.

    Hey, maybe instead of a bankers tax we could could have a 'private nursing home' windfall tax…

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    I'm not really sure what the answer is. Maybe it could be an expansion of the NHS rather than paying over the odds for private nursing homes making a pretty penny for the owners.

    Most private nursing homes make very little profit – especially those relying on state funding. Private nursing homes are also significantly cheaper than NHS care – mainly 'cos salaries are a lot lower – thus the difficulty they have in recruiting good staff.

    As I said above – its unfair in any way its paid for –

    current system – if you have a house you sell it to pay for care and end up next to the person who has been on benefits all their life

    However if you don't sell the home to pay for care then the taxpayer pays for your care thus allowing you to pass on the home to your children – so the taxpayer pays out money so your children can inherit. You still end up in the same bed with the same care.

    either way looks unfair.

    Talkemada
    Member

    Difficult for people to feel it's a 'fair' system that they can sit in one bed when they are old beside some other scrounger who's not done a days work yet is getting his bed for free.

    That's if you attach a monetary value to the 'right' to receive health care, rather than seeing it as something every Human Being is entitled to regardless of how much or how little they've paid into the 'system'.

    The Tories especially love to plant such seeds of thought into the minds of the public, as this then makes cutting or privatising health care provision easier for people to accept.

    The reality is, that there are very few real 'scroungers', and that most folk work as hard as each other. Shouldn't people receive something according to their own personal endeavour, rather than how much money they generate?

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 69 total)

The topic ‘Why can't social care be funded through National Insurance?’ is closed to new replies.