Why are people so against immigration?

It’s the latter Cougar

From what he’s told me this is pretty much the norm, the extremists hitting the headlines shortly after bits of them have hit several walls are not following any form of Islam that most British Muslims recognise.

It’s like all the nonsense about the danger of illegal migrants doing terrorisms – almost every single act of terror carried out in this country has been by British-born UK nationals.

Lets be honest, you’re never going to get an actual answer to the original question on STW

I think the question has been answer well by multiple people.  Its just few of us agree with the why and have challenged those that do for the “evidence” they keep saying there is out there

I think it’s easy to point the finger at immigrants for running down areas of cities like Birmingham, but in reality it’s an economic thing. Immigrants tend to be the poorest so they end up in the cheapest parts of town, which tend to also be the most deprived.

But after reading this article, the immigration numbers are way higher than I thought they would be, but as it says, most are in the south east of England.

Britain can’t afford another Birmingham every two years

But even in a smallish town like the one where I live, there are quite a few people that are not from Scotland, including myself. This includes Italian, Japanese, thai, indian, South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies, Poles, Ukrainians and loads of English.

The real issue is that we have an aging population and there are plenty of people choosing not to have kids, so who is going to be doing the jobs in the future? Well immigrants of course. Simple economics, when you have a local shortfall in a resource, you import that resource from somewhere else.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/children-of-migrants-in-the-uk/

What we need is sensible migration laws and to actually police the illegal migration that is just criminal extortion of vulnerable people. Stop the Boats is a valid objective, both for the country and the trafficed people. Sadly it isn’t what we are actually doing.

I’ve not really got much to add other than to say I’m glad of immigration as without it I’d not be here with my mother being a German immigrant just after the Second World War. And to that end, I’d not have a brother in law (Jamaican) or sister in law (Korean). Immigration has made my life a whole lot richer.

The whole narrative of “No Space” is hilarious. I fly over the country every day, and even the SE is barely touched. 70% of uk land is “Utilused Agricultural Area” but only 30% of that is actual crops. Most of it is just massive private estates you can’t access or see. If we actively managed our building programme instead of leaving it in the hands of a few companies massive land banks it would be a start.

We certainly don’t have enough infrastructure or services, but that isn’t the fault of immigrants.

what if they built on your favourite trail?

.

Call me old-fashioned but I wouldn’t want to persecute the most vulnerable people on earth because of where I want to ride.

Plenty of golf courses – use them.

I agree helping the most vulnerable is something to do and be proud of, just don’t allow it to be taken advantage of . just sensible planning ahead which is something that can’t be left to the polititions sadly.

I think it’s easy to point the finger at immigrants for running down areas of cities like Birmingham, but in reality it’s an economic thing. Immigrants tend to be the poorest so they end up in the cheapest parts of town, which tend to also be the most deprived.

I know exactly what went wrong in Accrington and many other East Lancashire towns. We were a cotton town, the Spinning Jenny was invented about 2 miles from where I used to live. The cotton trade dried up, all the mills closed and nothing replaced it. The local economy went into freefall, the town never recovered.  The town centre today is dominated by fast-food outlets, pound shops, charity shops and bookmakers.  It’s the place to be if you want a ham-flavoured pizza and five copies of Scene It!

What we need is sensible migration laws and to actually police the illegal migration that is just criminal extortion of vulnerable people.

If they’re already acting illegally, what do you suggest a change in the law would achieve?

The cotton trade dried up, all the mills closed and nothing replaced it. The local economy went into freefall, the town never recovered.

Similar to Bradford. See also mining towns/villages I’d imagine as well.

I think the question has been answer well by multiple people. Its just few of us agree with the why and have challenged those that do for the “evidence” they keep saying there is out there

Well this evidence thing works both ways don’t you know.

sirromj

Well this evidence thing works both ways don’t you know.

Well, you aren’t wrong.

To be honest though, it’s easy to come up with evidence that supports a need for migration, the NHS simply couldn’t currently function without it, ditto the care sector. Longer term we also need more younger workers to support an aging population via their taxes and the actual work they do. I’m sure there are other sectors and aspects that I’m not even aware of that benefit greatly too.

Long term, should we train more of our own doctors and nurses? Yes but that will take years and people are dying/suffering now waiting for procedures and medical help.

When your elderly parent is in a hospital hallway for days or your kid has been waiting over 12 hours in A&E to be seen, immigration policy goes way, way down most people’s priority list.

Sure as hell does for me, that’s for sure.😁

@sirromj –

Why are people so against immigration?

There’s plenty of actual facts and evidence there, and a link to the Migration Observatory (which is an academic institution at Oxford University with no bias either way). Most of the data suggests immigrants are beneficial.

funkmasterp

I have a Brazilian

Cannot get image out of head

^^ We’re a broad church on STW.

Unlike, erm, the average brazilian.

When your elderly parent is in a hospital hallway for days or your kid has been waiting over 12 hours in A&E to be seen, immigration policy goes way, way down most people’s priority list.

Sure as hell does for me, that’s for sure.😁

… which is part of the problem.  If we cared more about positive immigration, we’d have more doctors/staff and thus shorter waiting times.  Viewed as a percentage of the population, more people work in the NHS than use it.

How soon we forget.  The reason we have the immigration we do is because after WWII we were ****ed and practically begged people from overseas to come help us rebuild.

If we cared more about positive immigration, we’d have more doctors/staff and thus shorter waiting times.

Precisely.

I refer you to my previous post.  We need to move the conversation about immigration away from all the stuff about illegal immigration, asylum seekers and people smuggling etc, which is what 99% of the “general public” are squabbling about (despite the fact that most people probably agree what needs to be done – anyone disagree that the boats need to be stopped?) and back towards actual immigration for the benefit of the country.

How many workers do we need in medical/care sector, where do we need them, and how are we going to fill that gap with training and/or immigration.  How are we going to make sure that those people are going to be paid enough to properly contribute to society?  How will local infrastructure be strengthened to accommodate x new people?  What about housing?  What about their families?  What are our future needs year on year, and what % of these should be met domestically vs via immigration.

We need to start talking about the grown-up stuff, not just all this “ban the boats” shit

All your great points above look too much like hard work to me so I am going with “stop the boats”

there are twenty odd horses at the riding school. The have their friends, alliances and enemies just like humans. Put a new horse it the field and it will get bitten and kicked.

Within the field horses form tribes often based on colour.

Introduce two new horses to a field together and the strongest will try to defend the weakest from the attacks of the others. They live in a gheto in a corner of the fied and have trouble getting at the hay and water. There’s a pecking with the  new arrivals at the bottom.

Take four horses and put them in another field, say three brown ones and one white one. The white one will get chased around bitten and kicked.

Horses are xenophobic, tribal and racist, so are humans.

Bloody piebalds, coming over here with your fancy apples…

(despite the fact that most people probably agree what needs to be done – anyone disagree that the boats need to be stopped?)

well actually 😉

the boats currently provide a “filter” so that most of the physically weakest are excluded; they have to either be willing to work for buttons to pay off a debt, entrepreneurial enough to get the cash for the trafficker, or have some family money, and they are willing to risk their lives to be here – sounds like exactly the sort of things the tories look for in citizens!

meanwhile we have 18 yr olds moaning that they don’t want to do National Service… perhaps everyone should be dumped in France and made to find their own way back.

oh, I can imagine a tv show about it – would we go with “Hunted International” or “Race across the channel” or perhaps we could give them a bit of a hand with some big inflatables and make “Total Wipeout the Return”.

in seriousness – everyone agrees that organised criminals smuggling people across the channel in overloaded unsuitable small boats is not a good idea.  Nobody agrees how to stop it – typical government approach of ban it and police it clearly fails.  So you are left with removing the incentive – logically you make mechanisms for people to apply from somewhere in France (or other countries) and then travel safely with the paperwork.  I sometimes think the current government is trying to solve the problem by making the UK an unattractive place to be (for everyone) with shit infrastructure a broken healthcare system etc, perhaps that’s to discourage migration!

Cougar

Because it’s STW, or because those who are opposed appear to lack the ability to articulate why?

It’s because it’s STW. It’s a bubble that is not reflective of wider society. Even forums such as /r/unitedkingdom on Reddit which were heavily pro-immigration even just a year or two back (possibly even more-so than STW) are now saying it needs to be dialed back a bit.

My own experience & view on immigration is similar to DT78 earlier in the thread, however I avoided posting because I couldn’t be arsed to deal with the possibility of a pile-on from certain members.  I’d imagine many people avoid putting their head above the parapet for the same reason and as a result, it can be a bit of an echo chamber.

STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.

People who live amongst it daily have less liberal views.

STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.

People who live amongst it daily have less liberal views.

OK, so talk us through it. What would change if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration? Genuinely curious here

people’s opinions would change. That’s what I’m saying.

I’m not being a d*ck, just want to understand better. You’re saying people’s opinions would change just by seeing immigrants around them? White immigrants too, or just ethnic minority?

Thing is, I think you’re right; but if people’s opinions change just because of *seeing* immigrants every day, then the answer is nimbyism at best, or just racism. The arguments of “….because they use the NHS/ take our housing/ etc” come *afterwards*, to excuse the immediate gut reaction of not liking them.

Even my distinctly middle class village has seen a lot of immigration in the last 10 years, as eastern Europeans and other nationalities have moved in to work at the adjacent storage/distribution centre.

The village shops get more trade, and a new one has just opened, the primary school has enough kids going in to keep numbers up, the care homes are fully staffed, we have kids from several backgrounds in our Scout and Guide groups and the various sports teams which has really broadened the outlook of all concerned.

Most importantly, people of black or asian appearance no longer get abused in the street,  as they did 20 years when we first moved here. Channel 4 used to film documentaries about the BNP round here.

Because it’s STW, or because those who are opposed appear to lack the ability to articulate why?

Because the middle classes suffer little to no negative impact from immigration and, as seen in this thread, think its great, and that anyone who disagrees with them must be stupid, racist, or gullible (or all three).

What negative effect does it have on you? And can you see any positive effects that they need balancing against?

I think the old argument, that if a refugee from some distance war torn country can rock up on our shores and take your job, then you probably aren’t very good at your job, is a relevant one..

Surrey: White Flight to the Isle of Wight (I leant to rap when I grew up in my non-homogenous ‘hood).

People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.

Funny that areas with most immigration are most pro immigration and the areas that are most anti immigrant are those areas with the least immigration.  Its almost as if living amongst immigrants shows folk that the propaganda pumped out about immigrants is false

The really sad thing is that despite this kind of discussion, the lines are drawn – I have my beliefs, you have yours, and the number of people who actually look at the other point of view and change their mind is vanishingly small.

That probably points to many of the “reasons” for being anti-immigrant being less logical and more lipstick on the pig of gut reaction, but more importantly means we’ll never agree on where or how it’s good/ bad and how best to manage it

Its almost as if living amongst immigrants shows folk that the propaganda pumped out about immigrants is false

That or you have lots of immigrants answering the questionnaire.

The concern is that people, (through no fault of their own) grow up in environments that aren’t comparable to that in the UK. . The way females may be treated, the way kids can grow up around death and destruction etc. It can mean integration into a different society is difficult.

Then the fact that the only accommodation cheap enough to house people is in impoverished areas. Middle class areas don’t have to accommodate.

Controlled immigration is essential for the economy. But if it’s not controlled it becomes an issue.

people’s opinions would change. That’s what I’m saying.

In which direction?  You appear to be saying “it’s alright for you lot, but you wouldn’t like it if you had a darkie next door.”  That’s really not what you mean, is it?

In any case, the opposite is measurably true.  Areas with the least immigration are most likely to oppose it, and vice versa.  We clearly saw this in exit polls in 2016.

Controlled immigration is essential for the economy. But if it’s not controlled it becomes an issue.

True enough.

This again was an argument in the referendum.  The fact of the matter is that the UK was perfectly able to tighten up its immigration policy and actively chose not to.  And of course, post-brexit the ‘nasty EU stopping us taking control of our borders’ rhetoric has been removed, it’s wholly a domestic issue.  Any perceived or actual problem is of our own making.