Why are downcountry hardtails so slept on by reviews?

Slack hardtails that are comfylier for longer rides than aggressive xc bikes, and a bit more confidence inspiring for aiming downhill should be a recipe for onboarding new riders on a lower budget. I’m surprised theres so little coverage of these bikes. I appreciate the love for sexy full sussers but good hardtails are the true onboarding point, and new starters aren’t fast or aggressive so bikes that eat steeps and sit comfier should be a golden goose to promote. I dont understand the lack of hype

Slept on?

Whilst I agree kind of, I guess you have to look at who reads reviews – i.e. who is the target market for reviews not who is the target market for bikes. It’s not all mountain bikers – just some mountain bikers. Maybe not me – I’m past all that. And maybe not total newbies. It’s probably the totally obsessed inbetweeners a year or 3 in…….the kind of person now up for spending an unreasonable amount of money on a bike.

Reading reviews and allowing yourself to think that the words you are reading reflect the spending power or the obsession level of the complete market might be giving reviews too much credit.

I guess. I cant be in the head of a potential mtb buyer, but for my imagined first time mtb consumer, a hardtail thats comfier and aimed to descend well, and take larger tires. Seems like a perfect starting point, you could make it skinnier and go faster, or bulk it up and aim down hills with more gusto.

An xc hardtail which is the frequent first (misguided) purchase doesn’t give you the range or opportunity to really feel things out.

And the platform to customize and tailor a bike establishes the secondary market of aftermarket kit.

Its a beautiful launch pad for the hobby in my eyes, synicaly from a marketing sales pipeline

For an established mtber they’re probably redundant unless you wanted a fast hardtail for winter compared to a slacker trail bike. Or of your an xc rat and want something quicker and looser but not so slack or daft you loose the finesse your regular bike demands. For an established mtber they’re weird to justify, but for buying a first bike they entertain a middling sweet spot of try this/try that. And then when it becomes a winter beater bike you could make it a very different machine for the fun of it.

Downcountry hardtails? Is this some sort of new sub niche for the cognoscenti? Like mullets? Which are, frankly, a bloody stupid idea.

They’re slack hardtails with 130 forks that can take a 2.5″ tyre. They’re the niche between xc and trail bikes, maybe they should be called trail hardtails. In my head they’re the answer to ‘i wanna ride off-road cause i dont fancy a skinny bike, but i don’t know if i wanna wear lycra and race around the woods at speed or try barreling through the rough stuff the keen guys seem to do, but i don’t wanna spend 2+ grand on a full susser cause my wife will kill me’

I think you’re completely misrepresenting the market. Most folk buying their first mountainbike want something to pootle along canals, gravel roads and maybe the occasional woodland path. Zillions of bikes suitable for this are sold every year. If some of those folk then get a bit more “gnar” then they’ll often see that other folk are riding full suspension and that’s what they’ll want too. Your downcountry hardtail is squeezed between these two and is often bought by more established MTBers as an option to their FS, often, as you say, for worse conditions.

Ah, a bit like my hooligan hardtail!  6” Nixons with 2.3” tyres. Gotcha.

Downcountry hardtails? Is this some sort of new sub niche for the cognoscenti? Like mullets?

Country and Mullets go together like being left by your wife and having to shoot your dog.

I broke three hardtail frames in a year and a half. Cracked head tube from repeatedly riding steps, dent in down tube where a car door was opened on me, dent in down tube from a crash.

I bought the most hardcore hardtail I could find- a 2001 cove stiffee.

It had a super slack 69 head angle (for the time) and the biggest tyres I could find 2.3. The top tube was short enough I wore knee pads partially to stop hitting my knees on the bars.

I rode it loads over the next 17 years memorably including a date on the fort William world cup track.

I think pretty much any shop bought hardtail wold be “better” down hill.

If people are keen they can ride anything anywhere. The rough stuff riders in the UK were probably riding the same natural stuff I’m riding now on 1960’s touring bikes.

Stooge Dirt Tracker Review: Convergent Evolution

Now I’m on an on one hello Dave. 62 head angle, 160mm fork and 2.6 29′ tyres. It’s a lot better bike. I still ride the same places. It’s still super fun. However, I’ve taken my full suss every other time I’ve been to fort William and I’ve never done an uplift with a hardtail

Oh, sorry to hear about your falls in Fort William. Hardtails can be tough on bumpy trails.

@trialsmatt

They’re slack hardtails with 130 forks that can take a 2.5″ tyre.

The term you’re looking for is “hardcore hardtail”.

They are a niche, as most people who upgrade from an entry level hardtail are likely to go to full suspension, just because they’re more confidence inspiring and comfortable.

I think the reasons that they’re not reviewed so often is because there aren’t so many of them, and companies are more eager to promote their higher end, more profitable models.

Slept on

Get in the sea.

Back to the question though, are they being overlooked? Do they exist in large numbers? I mean, I get your point that for every hardtail review there’s 3 different FS bikes reviewed, but from going out on the trails I’d guessed that was because those are the proportions being sold. Good hardtails don’t sell so much these days – everyone wants a full-susser, preferably with an e-motor; and my guess is the margins are much better for the manufacturers, so they’re keen to sell them too.

A recipe for onboarding new riders on a lower budget

My imagined first time mtb consumer

Good hardtails are the true onboarding point,

The platform to customize and tailor a bike establishes the secondary market of aftermarket kit.

For buying a first bike they entertain a middling sweet spot

So slept on by reviews

It’s almost poetry. Have you considered an alternative career as some sort of marketing copywriter?

The Pink Bike ‘Value Group test’ contained 3 bikes that are exactly what you describe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG9nZ_-Htbg

I think you don’t see so many reviews for these is simply that for most beginners, a FS is probably thier best bet if they’re wanting to do more than pootle down the canal and back.

My imagined first time mtb consumer
Good hardtails are the true onboarding point,

Now this is something I’d agree with – like F1 or Touring Car drivers starting in go karts. Learning about things like picking lines, anticipation, body positioning and feeling the bike move about underneath you – then you move onto bigger and more sophisticated bikes once you’ve got those skills.
Whereas many people get into MTBing with the most ‘desirable’ bike they can get, which is often a FS that just absorbs everything and allows them to go faster and faster regardless of skill

I would guess that the majority of serious mtbers have a hardtail. I have always kept a full susser and a long(er) travel hardtail, even when I also had a dh bike and a singlespeed.

Beginners are often frightened by the cost of mtbs, so starting with a decently specced do it all (mostly) hardtail makes some kind of sense. They will pretty soon decide they want a ful susser, but hopefully be able to keep the hardtail as well.

I wonder if my XC bike is a downcountry hardtail. I hope so…

It’s a light 29er with fast-ish tires and 75mm slammed stem, but a 120mm fork and a decently tall head-tube so it doesn’t feel slammed, just looks it.

‘hardcore hardtails’ have been around for a long time, and well catered for by the likes of Cotic, Stanton, On One etc, the British pioneered the longer travel, less XC hardtail 20 odd years ago, and guess what – they’re still good. Sure, head angles have got slacker, seat angles steeper, wheels bigger, and boost blah blah… Their have always been shorter travel full sus bikes that aren’t XC race machines too.

Labels have evolved and to my mind ‘downcountry’ bikes are just what 99% of the population expect a mountain bike to be – not 150mm+ travel, not 2.6″+ tyres, and not a 22lb carbon race bike. Just, a, mountain bike that can do a bit of everything, which is what I think most people probably still need – newbie or not.

Good hardtails are the true onboarding point

Not sure this is true anymore… it once was… and many of us may think it should still be.. but things have moved on.

“Good hardtails” are now more often bought by people moving off older hardtails, or from a full sus, or as an additional bike.

@core I agree. As “trail” bikes now go up to 150/160mm travel, they’re encroaching on the enduro category and are super-capable, leaving space beneath them for people who want something a little more sprightly up hills, more fun on rolling terrain, and still capable on the descents – a classic trail bike.

To be honest, even my old Jeffsy (140/140) was slightly over biked for most UK sanctioned trails, it was only in bike parks and off- piste that it started to feel near the limit.

If you’re just going to do trail centres, which is what a lot of people do these days, a ~120mm full sus is just about perfect IMO.

“Good hardtails” are now more often bought by people moving off older hardtails, or from a full sus, or as an additional bike.

Or only bike.

Or only bike.

Absolutely. But not “first mountain bike”. This could change though… if all those riders that have moved from road bike to gravel bikes make the obvious next step… a hardtail with the angles for both exploring and, er, shredding.

@core I agree. As “trail” bikes now go up to 150/160mm travel, they’re encroaching on the enduro category and are super-capable, leaving space beneath them for people who want something a little more sprightly up hills, more fun on rolling terrain, and still capable on the descents – a classic trail bike.

To be honest, even my old Jeffsy (140/140) was slightly over biked for most UK sanctioned trails, it was only in bike parks and off- piste that it started to feel near the limit.

Actually a pretty good explanation of why gravel’s become so popular, tbh

Any actual stats to back any of these claims up or are you all just plucking them out of thin air willy nilly?

Aren’t gravel bikes for people who don’t have the skills for MTB? ;-)

Anyway, my two pence, if it’s even worth that, full suspension MTBs are beyond my budget. Oh that doesn’t matter does it. I don’t bother myself reading reviews of things I have no intention of buying.

My best MTB is over 5 7 years old, and it’s a hard tail, might it be a downcountry hardtail?

Bird Zero TR (quite long I think) , 27.5″, 30mm rims, 2.4″ front, 2.35″ rear, bash guard & chain retainer, 130mm Rockshox Yari forks.

Hard tails now seems almost exclusively for “onboarding” kids up to 20″ wheels. From then on there exists a vast choice of lower than average price point full suspension bikes that meet the aspirations of adults new to the sport. Also exists a comparatively larger inventory of used full suspension bikes being sold by progressing riders with upgradeitis or wannahaveititis.

Absolutely my 100mm giant xtc, 120mm Blizzard, talas forked Soul and 140mm Solaris were just as much fun (in a different way) than any of my full sus bikes, but the appeal of backache is much less to new riders.

That’s the real reason I haven’t gone back to a hardtail for actual MTB’ing – getting beaten up less. Full sus is faster and more comfortable everywhere for me.

Bird Zero TR (quite long I think) , 27.5″, 30mm rims, 2.4″ front, 2.35″ rear, bash guard & chain retainer, 130mm Rockshox Yari forks.

Sorted! All the fun, none of the hassle. Enjoy.

Are we sure the OP isn’t ChatGPT with a Singletrack login? Does anyone who’s not in HR use the phrase ‘onboarding’ in general conversation? It’s up there with ‘going forward’ as terminology that sets my teeth on edge.

It would be interesting to see some figures, but I get the impression I that a general purpose hardtail is still the primary entry point to mountain biking for most people, based on what I see around somewhere like Comrie Croft. In part, this is because the ‘entry point’ is what they ride as kids; even the parents who’ve spent more lavishly on bikes for their kids, still tend to have them riding around on Islabikes, Frogs, Hoys and the like, with the older kids on better bikes still tending to be on hard tails at the slacker end of the spectrum; Whytes and so on. I suspect there’s a fair few adults running full suss bikes that could probably do what they want to on a LLS hardtail with chunky tyres – at the anecdotal level, I built up a cheap Titus El Chulo frame with 130mm forks and 2.6 tyres for Mrs DJ a couple of years back, and she rides that almost exclusively for the stuff she likes to do (blue/easy red trail centre stuff).

That’s the real reason I haven’t gone back to a hardtail for actual MTB’ing – getting beaten up less. Full sus is faster and more comfortable everywhere for me.

I’ve always had a HT of some description in the fold and pretty much knew what I was getting if I wanted to take one out.

Was blown away when I built the Ragley up though as to how different a modern HT can be.  Absolutely fine for 20mile/3000ft without feeling beaten up and would say going further would be fine too. Climbing is as good as any bike I’ve had and it flies downhill – was keeping up with my mate on his Megatower the other weekend no problem

Slept on? Is that another Americanism? FFS I thought it was a typo.

It’s a niche that either doesn’t exist, or no one cares about and who wants to review hardtails any more when there are so many great bouncy bikes to get through.

And anyway, when mags existed like MBR and What Mountain Bike and that other one Mountain Biking For Da Kidz or whatever it was called, they always had a budget hardtails mass review, cos it filled up a whole bunch of pages with the usual “geometry makes it scary” “stem too long at 60mm” “cheap cranks are flexy” stupidity and meant nothing to anybody, especially not new riders in their first stages of onboarding  :lol:

I’ve always had a hardtail, cos they are light and simple and fun to ride. (That’s my review of all of em)

Yeah as above, the market has been mainly eaten by much more capable, more comfortable, arguably as durable and arguably as efficient full sus trail bikes in the category above, and much more efficient gravel bikes below.

I still keep a hardtail for winter singlespeed duties and also for bikepacking / touring as I prefer the stability to the gravel bike when loaded up. I am riding it less these days though, for sure.

Given the language I think the OP is some sort of bot.

Check out ‘Hardtail Party’ on Yourtube. Dude puts modern hardtails through their paces, and knows his stuff. Hardtails rule.

75mm slammed stem, but a 120mm fork and a decently tall head-tube so it doesn’t feel slammed, just looks it.

What’s the point then?

GMBN did a test a few months back with an EWR rider on various bikes including an “entry level” hardtail, and she was pretty quick on the hardtail, even riding quite a tasty track at BPW.

Since I’ve had my Ragley I’ve hardly ridden my Stumpjumper Evo, as it’s just more fun on easier stuff, easier to maintain, and works better for off road touring.

Just joining this thread to say that this type of bike is exactly what I was after as my first proper mtb.

I started by enjoying some off-road stuff on my old Claud Butler and wanted something more capable  but still had to be cheapish, so got a Calibre Two.Two for around £400.

This was great for the price and got me properly into mountain biking and wanting a much better bike… on a budget and knew I would not be swapping bikes anytime soon so the upgrade requirements were: the best value for money possible, a do-it-all bike, the most capable possible as my abilities grew (knowing my abilities! so no enduro gnarpoons, but capable of riding a beginner enduro), etc etc. I researched it to death and read every review I could find 🤣

Anyway. TL;DR: a ~140mm travel hardtail seemed perfect, which is what I ended up with, and it is. 🥰

Was going to recommend Hardtail Party on YouTube as well 👍

i bought a Planet X 29er Jackflash for an absurd amount of money (£90 delivered, new, iirc) and have really got into it.

Stiff and light (lighter than a steel bike, or full suss, at least), but while the slacker head angle looked a bit odd initially, its really noticeable when you point it downhill. Its a bit floppier on steep climbs, but nothing you don’t get used to.

Its a yes from me.