Right. In order to stop me from procrastinating through another of my allegedly ‘working’ days, I will ask my ridiculously unecessary question here: Which (4WD?) hatchback should I buy next summer?

It’s basically for carting me and my child about in. I will do approximately 12,000 miles per year, of which maybe a quarter will be on dual carriageway A roads.

The first thing is that I would like it to be safe = 5 star NCAP results. I’d like 4WD because I *suppose* it will make it safer in wet or cold conditions. Price? Up to around £12,000, less than that = bonus.

I currently drive a 1996 Peugeot 406. It’s huge and awesome but not that NCAP safe, hence the desire for change.

Any opinions? I’m leaning towards the Lancer Ralliart (4WD Lancer), but wonder if I should be looking at ‘cross-over’ vehicles as well. In fact, I sometimes think we’d be safter still in a LandRover kind of thing, but try to brush those thoughts away!

Thanks!

The impreza hatch is **** ugly and is difficult to sell on! However I’ve driven the 330s it goes like Joe **** has plenty of gizmos and will leave the golf for dead. However for that money you’re not gonna get a 330, may get a high mileage sit or good wrx! The boot is tiny though! The mitso i haven’t driven but again will come in varying degrees of wolf sheep and clothing! The golf well, its got a good boot size, is better looking in a boring way and will probably fair better on resale! So I’d go for a late 2007 ppp sti in the hawk eye shape saloon! Hth 😆

I think your car performance bar is set way higher than mine! 😀

Hadn’t considered resale prices… eep, those and I guess fuel economy to throw into the mix!

Ford Kuga? Skoda Yeti?

You’d be much better off getting a good 2wd car and decent summer/winter tyre combos though.

Hmm. I’d get snow tyres for it as well, but you think that 4WD +snow tyres = overkill?

The Yeti looks nice, but outside my price range, from what I’ve seen. Have never even heard of the Kuga :/ will now investigate!

4wd and winter tyres would be awesome.
If it goes wrong then it would go wrong in a big way though

Audi s3?

4wd, 265hp, nice interior, get a 2007 model for approx 13k.

I have one and its very fast, ESP when chipped, amazingly good in snow and ice even on summer tyres, just drove round various stuck people in the snow last year.

Its not the most involving drive though.

I’d like 4WD because I *suppose* it will make it safer in wet or cold conditions.

It won’t. It will give you better road holding if you are thrashing it but in normal driving it won’t make any difference. Won’t help you stop, for instance.

As for winter tyres – that’s what you need for snow. Carting around 4wd for the other 362 days of the year is a waste of fuel. 4WD hatches are great for if you need to drive muddy fields or off-road regularly, but don’t bother otherwise imo. 2WD + winter tyres is much better than 4wd with normal tyres.

In fact, if you are concerned about safety get winter tyres anyway. They WILL help you corner and stop in the winter unlike 4×4, any time it’s below 10 degrees, and they will also last longer in winter so you will SAVE money in the long run, unlike with 4wd which will cost you in the long run.

Stretch the budget further by going for something 3-4 years old, and 99% of the time front-wheel drive is all you’ll need.

And if you think a 406 is huge and awesome , you’ll not be disappointed by practically anything modern.

As Molly says, be careful with a 4wd. Had a Golf Synchro a few years ago that was just so stable and such a hoot up to about 60mph on compacted snow, it was until I thought about breaking for the upcoming bend, twitchy bum moment, but still a huge hoot.

Octavia 4×4 estate. I love mine

Oh and fwiw subarus are shocking in the snow without skinnys on!!

A bit of ebay browsing the other day and saw an audi a8, 4.2 V8 Quattro, admittedly nearly 10 years old, BUT just over £2k final price. Lot of car, heated everything.

2-3 years? Can’t think of any 4×4 worth buying for that money, it will be basic and compromised.

a hoot up to about 60mph on compacted snow, it was until I thought about breaking for the upcoming bend, twitchy bum moment, but still a huge hoot.

First rule of 4WDing: 4×0=0

Thanks all. Fast is no real concern (though obviously need reasonable acceleration and to be comfortable crusing at 70/75).

Cheers Molgrips for your thoughts on 2WD / 4WD. Safety in general usage was what I thought I’d gain from 4WD, if that’s not so then it absolutely negates my need for 4WD – I’ve got snow tyres for the 406 and have gotten round just fine it in previous years when the village hadn’t yet been plowed and I wanted out.

b r… I’ve got the estate version, it’s always seemed big to me! The awesome does need clarification – awesome at doing what I need it to do in an unspectacular and really quite boring and barge-like way? 😉

Right, I guess this means I’m off to look at Golfs (the shame is that I think they look best with the black alloys of the 4wd versions!).

renalts from a short while ago have an excellent safety rating, alternatively, I’d be looking at the volvo v50 for safety – should be able to pick up a 2 year old version for well under your budget. make sure whatever you buy has ESP (or whatever the accronym is for stability control on the car you’re after) – even in some modern cars its an optional extra.

Frankly, if safety is your only concern, something bigger will be safer. Look at the volvo s80 for something that is big, cheap and safe.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201147429985975/sort/priceasc/usedcars/maximum-mileage/up_to_60000_miles/price-to/12000/maximum-age/up_to_3_years_old/model/s80/make/volvo/page/1/postcode/bn24dp/radius/1500?logcode=p

crossovers and 4x4s often seem safer (and can be when you are *in* a crash) however the driving dynamics of something tall and heavy are so poor that you are much more likely to get into a crash in the first place

Markie

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but 4wd in a car does add to safety even in the snow remember when you change down in a 4wd engine braking goes across all 4 wheels so its easier to slow down. Also cornering is improved not just in the snow but everywhere much safer than cornering fwd in the wet.
Go for a Subaru Legacy estate large 4wd cheap to buy, cheap to insure, not great to sell on but if you get one cheap enough then its ok also if you get the 3.0 a hoot to drive. Fuel is around 25mpg but at your mileage it won’t make much difference when you factor everything else in.
I have had fwd,rwd and 4wd in my time. 4wd has saved me in the snow including one time last year when if i hadn’t been in a 4wd car I definately would of had a nasty crash.

Golf is a good all round car, that is why it is the best selling car in Europe period! Something like a Subaru or Evo is going to be seriously BAD on fuel. Just look at the sort of money they are going for right now, thats a big clue.

A3 is just a more prestigous Golf, same chassis, it is not much more fun to drive, infact I’d say it is a little less involving than a Golf. Unless you get an S3 but again youre into the crap fuel economy end of the market.

A good compromise is a sport diesel, good mpg, good performance. If you can ditch the 4WD it gives you a lot more options to play with.

I just chopped my Civc type R 😥 for a TDI Golf that has 170bhp, it’s comfy and I can get to Wales and back on a tank of gas.

Good sport diesels are the way forward in my opinion, I’d be looking at a 3.0L TDI A5 or the 2.0L if your not fussed about it being quick and a 320 or 330D BMW coupe if you’re happy to put some winter tyres on her.

Happy shopping

wrightyson – Member
Oh and fwiw subarus are shocking in the snow without skinnys on!!

But untouchable when you do put them on 😀

Markie

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but 4wd in a car does add to safety even in the snow remember when you change down in a 4wd engine braking goes across all 4 wheels so its easier to slow down. Also cornering is improved not just in the snow but everywhere much safer than cornering fwd in the wet.
Go for a Subaru Legacy estate large 4wd cheap to buy, cheap to insure, not great to sell on but if you get one cheap enough then its ok also if you get the 3.0 a hoot to drive. Fuel is around 25mpg but at your mileage it won’t make much difference when you factor everything else in.
I have had fwd,rwd and 4wd in my time. 4wd has saved me in the snow including one time last year when if i hadn’t been in a 4wd car I definately would of had a nasty crash.

not convinced by that. modern ebd brake systems are a much more effective way of slowing a vehicle than engine braking and a few open diffs. it can help with cornering, but only when you’re booting it. if you’re off the trottle there is no more traction than in any other car

Oh and fwiw subarus are shocking in the snow without skinnys on!!

No. Thats incorrect. Heres mine on the top of Rivington last Christmas day morning.

Riding around Calderdale/over the tops I’ve also noticed alot of Foresters.

Mine drove through everything, not one road stopped it in two harsh winters.

In addition, I’ve had it sideways in torrential rain driving waaay too quickly and a 4wheel drift. All you do is keep your foot down on the accelerator.

I read somewhere that not much would keep up with a Impreza in wet conditions on B roads. I believe* that.

Mine wasn’t the fastest however it was mental for grip and pulling through bends and roundabouts.

My Legacy sportswagon was more grown up and on *Vredstein Sportrac tyres utterly unshakeable in the wet.

Look up 2.5 or 3.0 Legacy’s. Actually good on petrol and the VED is good to (pre 2006).

Hora has hit the nail on the head. My Legacy used to laugh at the snow even with 18 inch wheels and skinny tyres.

5lab drive it and try it rather than reading a book!!

I’ve also driven (albeit mkIV) Golf V6 4motion (drove for 6weeks over winter) and Audi S3 (albeit a winter weekend away from Manchester to Edinburgh and back).

Neither felt anywhere as ‘good’ to drive or as stable as the Subaru’s.

Saying that I did like the V6 engine sound and the S3 was a lovely car.

EVO for sure – most fun car I have driven bar caterhams, not better but more fun than a 911.

Yeah you could get somethign better on fuel – but as my wise brother in law always says: “With the money I save owning a diesel I will but the car I want.”

He just got a scooby.

As mentioned above, when it goes wrong in an Impreza or Evo, it goes very wrong, very quickly. That’s why there’s an abundance of cheap salvage spares about. The spare wheels that I put winter tyres on cost £30.

Impreza STI that I had as a courtesy car was plain mental. It scared me 😆

Understeer, understeer, understeer, SNAP! oversteer, sideways, ditch 😆

when you change down in a 4wd engine braking goes across all 4 wheels so its easier to slow down.

And how is that any different to putting on the brakes gently? Despite what people say it’s perfectly easy to brake gently enough to not skid even with summer tyres on snow.

Plus as above you have the added advantage that ABS can brake or free up individual wheels, which is something you can’t do at all if you are engine braking.

I think the comments around Subarus above were aimed at Imprezas with wide tyres. Wide tyres = bad in snow.

To be fair to 4×4 normal cars it is primarily useful when hooning about but in snow and sand it’s actually REALLY helpful. My old fwd pug 205 was pretty damn good in teh snow but my GT4 is awesome, it’s just (as molgrips said) difficult to remember you can’t stop any better than a normal car *if you brake* in emergency situations.

You can, however, slow much more controllably by using engine braking through all 4 wheels evenly assuming you’re not using semi-smart electronic control and have true full time 4wd (most brakes tend to put the fronts on early and heavy, then bring the rears in as you get heavier due to the ~80% bias on road cars) and in situation where you’re stuck on a steep hill going down it a 1st gear crawl is possible and nice and controlled where going down teh same hill with 2wd or just on brakes is a bit sketchy. It’s about how you spread the traction around the available contact points.

I’m really REALLY looking forward to winter with my ‘four this year, bring on the snow (so long as it’s not too deep as I’ve only got 120mm of ground clearance please Mr Weather)

My Passat puts the backs on first, to limit diving. Rear pads wear much more quickly than fronts.

It’s about how you spread the traction around the available contact points.

Can’t see how 4wd is any better for this than ebd/abs

I had a Legacy Outback, it was fantastic.
Flogged it due to excessive rust, but it was a 1999 model and the first 2 owners lived in Llanelli right next to the sea.
Never skipped a beat in 3 years, cam belt replacement did cost £250 though.
Great car.

FWIW Octavia 4×4 – normal, not the Scout, or any appropriate sized Audi with Quattro in your budget

If ya imprezas understeering you aren’t turning in quick enough 😉
I’ve owned two over over the last 7 yrs, and both have/are shite in the snow, when running on 225/17/45’s.
I’ve had the current one out of shape recently in the dry and it is an eye-opener 😯

My XC90 AWD is great in the snow/ice and even mud. You can feel the car keeping traction as you let the engine control the speed as you go down a hill in it and as its AWD not 4×4 it moves the power/grip from front to rear as it needs to. Having a decent tractioon control system that will send power tot he wheels with grip also helps. The car feels lovely and stable in all weathers and its a 5 star car and you an ge tthem in your price range they are even not that bad on fuel fo rhte type of car.

Apperently there’s an issue with older Haldex systems on the rear with VAG’s. Its a 1k fix unless scrappys have a quattro etc in breaking.

Anyway you don’t need 4WD. I took my Aygo to south Germany on New Years eve once 😀

I sometimes think we’d be safter still in a LandRover kind of thing, but try to brush those thoughts away!

They aren’t safer, there’s no correlation between size of car and fatality rate afaik. Bigger cars have more mass which means more energy in a crash.

Imagine being an elephant. You would be invincible bashing through a group of people but jumping off a 6ft ledge would kill you.

Can’t see how 4wd is any better for this than ebd/abs

You have to think about how it’s applied, 4WD engine braking is approximately 50:50 front rear continuous retarding force (assuming you don’t lock one end by dabbing and it’s better to have something like a viscous locking centre diff). ABS is a pulsating force applied after the brakes have locked and cannot cope with all-wheels-locked situation so must reduce at least one wheel to zero braking to re-gain traction, then pulse them again (snow and ice don’t like sharp stabby brake variations). EBD is effectively super-ABS, again can’t cope with a fully locked situation and relies on the same initial ~80:20 brake bias on a normal FWD car, so will rely on breaking traction before it can identify what to do, and again varies brake force by pulsative stabbing of the brakes. Both EBD and ABS only work above a certain speed, manufacturer dependent and I think about 5mph, which is plenty of momentum on snow/ICE to still be an issue. Plus, on the human-machine interface, most humans can’t cope very well with the fact that the electronics help some of the time but not all of it. Might let you steer round the problem but that doesn’t help if there’s no exit route or you’re just trying to get down a really steep hill. On the contrary, 4wd engine braking is continuous, loads all wheels approximately equally, varies continuously rather than in pulses and is infinitely variable with clutch control. I’ve run the same car with and without ABS, I’ve done quite a few tests in car parks and on hills, and I know which I prefer the control of when the going gets really nasty! Some super-snazzy electronic control systems have mitigated the problems by having a “snow mode” (though lots of older “snow mode” systems just turn off the ABS AFAIK) which does it’s best to replicate 4 wheel engine braking…

Bigger cars have more mass which means more energy in a crash.

But generally more mass than those things around them, so unless they hit something solid, everything else becomes an airbag. Having been run into a few times by smaller cars while driving a classic rangerover I can assure you you bearly feel it, and what’s more if you do drive into a fence/ditch/field/car the old beat up 4×4 will generally drive you home still. Clearly that’s not going to happen with higher speeds, but most snow/ice accidents are low speed impacts that a classic 4×4 would shrug off and drive on happily, rather than leaving you stranded with bent suspension and without a source of heat.

wrightyson – 🙂 fair point!
Try 205/55/16 winter tyres. They got me through this lot last year with no problems other than the height of the rear diff being the limit to how deep you could go through.

Ooo look at all that lovely cold snow in the intake keeping it nice,cold and moist! 😀

But generally more mass than those things around them, so unless they hit something solid, everything else becomes an airbag

People often hit solid things though. I don’t think it’s that rare. Or lorries etc.

. EBD is effectively super-ABS, again can’t cope with a fully locked situation

Again sceptical. If I were writing ABS software I reckon it’d be pretty easy to register when all four wheels have locked up straight away.

Clearly that’s not going to happen with higher speeds, but most snow/ice accidents are low speed impacts that a classic 4×4 would shrug off and drive on happily

The OP isn’t talking about that special situation, he’s talking about safety in general.