The OCPW will likely be visiting the labs.

Knowing how hard it is to fraudulently trick the MHRA, I find your position pretty laughable to be honest Edukator. They seem to be doing all the right things in terms of international obligations, unlike during the Iraq debacle.

well we we’d better start with old videos about what to do in the case of nuclear war as well then, and then ban anyone with a funny eastern European accent and get that good old British tradition, the concentration camp back for anyone we think looks a bit “iffy in a famous five stylee”…hey at least it will give some of the plucky Brits employment after Brexit

Are you that blindly cynical that you don’t think we should have emergency responders properly prepared? Shall we get rid of the bomb disposal teams whilst you’re at it? Maybe get some hippy love circles going as well?

if we suffer an anthrax terror attack like the Americans did in 2001?

Everything went a bit quiet on that after the majority of evidence suggested it’d come from a US military installation…

Are you that blindly cynical that you don’t think we should have emergency responders properly prepared?

you show me a plausible imminent threat and I’ll stow my cynicism, you jingoistic, war drum banging buffoon, bet you knock one out over  photo of dear Maggie in her Argentine War ensemble dont you 😉

Was your previous log in Katie Hopkins? 🙂

you show me a plausible imminent threat and I’ll stow my cynicism, you jingoistic, war drum banging buffoon, bet you knock one out over  photo of dear Maggie in her Argentine War ensemble dont you

You can go and find anthrax in the countryside, pretty sure you can’t go looking for bombs unless you decide to go looking for UXBs. The use of anthrax has less to do with availability than it does imagination. CBRN was due a spending boost after the massive cuts to it.

Anyway

The use of anthrax has less to do with availability than it does imagination.

I know, I’ve  worked in BSL 4  Labs as part of my job and have had to collect “suspect white powders” in the past as well.

Really? So why are you so against the people who may be on scene without having the kind of protection that BSL IV PPE provides, having some kind of protection against that threat. Anthrax vaccines aren’t exactly a huge outlay.

It’s one thing doing it in a lab, it’s another being asked to do it on scene potentially without the right gear on. Are forces personnel not worth that outlay?

Considering you’ve worked in that environment, I’d have thought you’d known better in regards to how hard it is for a non-state actor or small state to make an exact copy of a substance (out of hundreds) that the Russians use that is unknown outside of potentially all but a select few intelligence circles.

They seem to be doing all the right things in terms of international obligations

apart from condemning and sentencing Russia BEFORE the OPCW has had a chance to check their working out.

I’m not saying they’re wrong – in fact I think there’s a very high probability they aren’t (quack quack) but we must have the highest standards, and trust in our leaders isn’t at a high point right now.

Catching up, has anyone blamed the jews yet because that is all I am missing from my wacko conspiracy theory bingo card?

apart from condemning and sentencing Russia BEFORE the OPCW has had a chance to check their working out.

I’m not saying they’re wrong – in fact I think there’s a very high probability they aren’t (quack quack) but we must have the highest standards, and trust in our leaders isn’t at a high point right now.

As I said, do you think the French and Germans would pull their weight if we kicked the can down the road by 6 months?

has anyone blamed the jews yet

You forgot the code word, don’t you mean bankers? *nod nod wink wink*

It’s one thing doing it in a lab, it’s another being asked to do it on scene potentially without the right gear on. Are forces personnel not worth that outlay?

as I stated previously more than happy for the outlay, IF there is a credible risk, then just do it quietly. To publicly state that your are doing it and then name countries that are the current bogey men is pure theater and just gives snappy soundbites for the press. Gavin Williamson is an utter, utter tit of the highest order and is so out of his depth its untrue.

As I’ve said all along, I agree with you that Russia very naught boys, but and this is a big but, you cannot escalate a situation without making sure that everything is as clear, transparent and in accordance with international law as can be. Particularly given out glorious past of totally titting it up

Sabre rattling Diplomacy via social media and press soundbites without time for quiet reflection is a very good way to arse it up again.

Whilst I’m not a fan of Corbyn, the fact that he his being roundly barracked by the more warlike politicians and right wing press, makes me think that he may be correct in his condemnation, but also in his call for caution.

IF the evidence was that strong, surely the government could have shown him the clear and concise information so that they would have  unanimous backing from the entire parliament, rather than just a “trust us, we haven’t lied before, honest” .

Well this thread has gone full on tinfoil helmet, hasn’t it?

As with all conspiracy theories, its complete bollocks of course!

We have a government and security services that prove with wearying regularity that they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. Then all of a sudden we’re expected to believe that they’e involved in complex plots to bump people off, involving nerve agents, and make it look like the Russians did it?

To achieve what?

Get a grip FFS!

We have a government and security services that prove with wearying regularity that they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery.

Yeah, but that’s what they want you to think.

Zokes, it’s been a long long time since I studied biochemistry, I’ve spent most of my time since graduating in QA, whilst my degree was quite clinically focused. Any ideas on the decontamination routine for this? Because a few arrsers are saying that the usual “hose it down with water” routine isn’t going to cut if for this, also the borderline sub-clinical effects can last for a lifetime. The sheer potency would make me worried about the effectiveness of any decontamination procedure to be honest.

Afraid that’s way beyond my expertise. As with anything with a chemical pathway: dilute it far enough and you’ll render it harmless, it’s just that you might need to dilute an awful long time. To get 1 microgramme of the stuff diluted to 1 part per billion you’d only need a litre of water. 1 miligramme would require 1000 litres, 1 gramme and you’re looking at half an olympic swimming pool, etc. Biology’s much scarier as you start off with only a few cells and they grow by themselves. At least with chemicals and radiation the most you’ll every be dealing with is what you have at the start!

In terms of decontamination of things that have definitely been in contact with the agent, controlled incineration would almost certainly be fine – anything organic burns if you give it oxygen and enough heat.

as I stated previously more than happy for the outlay, IF there is a credible risk, then just do it quietly. To publicly state that your are doing it and then name countries that are the current bogey men is pure theater and just gives snappy soundbites for the press. Gavin Williamson is an utter, utter tit of the highest order and is so out of his depth its untrue.

There is a credible risk, Novichok has been used for **** sake. Who thought that was a credible risk a month ago?

And the government also have to be seen to be doing something, to allay public fears, I think that announcing how you are going to protect service personnel is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

As I’ve said all along, I agree with you that Russia very naught boys, but and this is a big but, you cannot escalate a situation without making sure that everything is as clear, transparent and in accordance with international law as can be. Particularly given out glorious past of totally titting it up

Hang on, where have we broken any international law? We have the right at anytime to boot out their ‘diplomats’ for no reason whatsoever.

I think we needed to throw out toys out the pram quickly, because I don’t think we can entirely trust our allies to back us up on this if we give this affair time to quieten down.

As I said, do you think the French and Germans would pull their weight if we kicked the can down the road by 6 months?

Why 6 months? How can we analyse, decide and act in days but if we followed channels it takes 6 months?

Because, they are widely known to be exceedingly bureaucratic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/14/nerve-agent-novichok-produced-russia-site-expert

There is a credible risk, Novichok has been used for **** sake. Who thought that was a credible risk a month ago?

which has got cock all to do with anthrax as well you know, why not advertise that we will also be immunizing all front line medical staff as well

“We have a government and security services that prove with wearying regularity that they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery”

totally, and yet they have without any shadow of a doubt definitely found the smoking gun in Putin’s hand.  I dont believe there is any funky conspiracy, just that it is no where near as black and white as May is portraying.

In terms of decontamination of things that have definitely been in contact with the agent, controlled incineration would almost certainly be fine – anything organic burns if you give it oxygen and enough heat.

Indeed, that exactly how our own stocks of chemical agent are slowly being destroyed at Porton Down – incineration.

Rachel

 Then all of a sudden we’re expected to believe that they’e involved in complex plots to bump people off, involving nerve agents, and make it look like the Russians did it?

It’s not that though is it?

It’s more that they likely haven’t got a scooby doo whodunnit, but blaming the Ruskis is very bloody convenient.

Plenty of old fashioned war comic fans will jump at the chance of another cold war and

To achieve what?

Well now you’re more worried about a war with Russia than Brexit, NHS, Homelessness, Education, Corruption, Child abuse, Offshore tax and tax avoidance, Cost of royal wedding, Trump’s visit, Saudi’s visit, Arms deals, War in Syria, War in Yemen, BBC propaganda, Council tax rises, Universal credit, Police cuts and privatisation, HS2, WASPI, Carillion, Job centre closures, Fox hunting, Poverty, Disability cuts, UN breach, Nurses pay, Loss of CPS files, Cuts in forces, The Lie of austerity and all their other failings

but especially the new EU tax avoidance legislation

which has got cock all to do with anthrax as well you know, why not advertise that we will also be immunizing all front line medical staff as well

You know full well that we aren’t immunising all forces personnel and that anthrax victims won’t end up in Peterborough City Hospital.

Indeed, that exactly how our own stocks of chemical agent are slowly being destroyed at Porton Down – incineration.

Rachel

Shall we napalm Salisbury then?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1760689.stm

Didn’t that outbreak actually in reality, originate from a farm next door to Pirbright?

Do you expect us to believe that someone from Porton Down has handed a sample to SIS to kill some Russian for the lolz? Because that is what you appear to be indirectly implying by posting that link.

its not like we’ve ever lost anything from Porten Down in past like foot and mouth is it?

no, just showing that nothing is black and white or goodies and baddies my little warmachine spambot. What bike do you ride out of interest?

I rest my case….

Losing stuff happens, people even lose nukes. Not sure any intelligence agency has used a lost nuke to assassinate someone though.

anyway thanks for this mornings fun i’ve enjoyed it. i’ll see you in the bunkers when the Sirens start to wail

I know someone who worked at pirbtight , the leak was caused by a cracked sewer pipe & improper decontamination in the lab.

Some of the infrastructure was pretty old apparently.

Some of the comments on this thread treating the subject as source of amusement and entertainment have been shameful, given that Skripal and his daughter are still in critical condition in hospital and it is not yet clear whether they will recover.

The fact that the Yulia Skripal – who is guilty of no more than being her father’s daughter, and probably had a very hard time of it when her father was arrested and imprisoned – was also poisoned suggests a number of possibilities:

– The perpetrators were incompetent/indifferent to the possibility of any innocent victims in picking a time and place when she would be likely or certain to be included in the attack.

– It’s been suggested that Yulia might have been used to bring the nerve agent into the UK unwittingly. If so, that was a truly evil act. It would also have been staggeringly reckless given that the outcome of such an uncontrolled remote ‘delivery’ of the poison would be unpredictable, with the potential to result in the deaths of multiple innocent persons, not least first responders.

– If the father and daughter were exposed to the agent at his home, then it was a matter of pure luck that they decided to go out and were consequently discovered by members of the public when the symptoms started. If they had stayed at home, then they would have died and their bodies might not have been discovered for some days. Moreover, the persons who would have discovered their bodies in such a scenario might have been at much greater risk of being poisoned themselves, because the cause of death might not have been apparent/identified for some time (whereas the symptoms the Skripals exhibited when they were found by the public and treated by the emergency services probably gave some warnings which helped to determine relatively quickly that it was a nerve agent).

– If Yulia was used as an unwitting mule, or some other remote delivery method was used such as sending a parcel in the post to Skripal, that might indicate that the Russians were less keen (following the forensic exposé of who murdered Litvinenko and how) to send one or more agents to the UK and specifically to Salisbury to kill Skripal, because of the high likelihood that they would subsequently be identified by CCTV etc. and/or the higher risk of getting caught.

I know someone who worked at pirbtight , the leak was caused by a cracked sewer pipe & improper decontamination in the lab.

Some of the infrastructure was pretty old apparently.

I got told something completely different in the interview, I didn’t even ask them about it, they just came out and flatly denied they had anything to do with it. This is after the findings of the report were made.

I remember around the time that one of the big shots was arguing that it was sabotage or human movement that caused it, not the pipes. I’m hazy on the topic though.

Can I just check I have this right:

The attack happened in Salisbury which also happens to be where Porton Down is located?

If there is anywhere in the UK this substance is likely to have been stored or manufactured for testing it is in Porton Down?

If so then surely that’s too big a coincidence to dismiss out of hand.

No, I think the Russians probably realised where he was living and thought it’d be a **** hilarious idea to kill him with a chemical weapon right under the noses of a world leading CBRN centre. Putin is the worlds biggest troll.

Good way to sow discord amongst the enemy as well, by encouraging conspiracy theories like that.

You know that ‘Russia killed him’ is also a conspiracy theory, right?

Not saying it didn’t happen but it assumes a motive and proposes various ways it could have happened despite there being a complete lack of evidence to confirm it.  That’s a conspiracy theory.

with anything with a chemical pathway: dilute it far enough and you’ll render it harmless, it’s just that you might need to dilute an awful long time. To get 1 microgramme of the stuff diluted to 1 part per billion you’d only need a litre of water. 1 miligramme would require 1000 litres, 1 gramme and you’re looking at half an olympic swimming pool,

Great. Homeopathic Novichok rampaging everywhere.

If so then surely that’s too big a coincidence to dismiss out of hand.

If it was a bunch of random people who ended up contaminated then yes it would be sensible to look at Porton Down.

That the victims was a former Russian spy and his daughter plus a cop investigating the poisoning makes it rather unlikely especially since they were in the middle of Salisbury.

I would be expecting a few more victims if it had been released from there.

I doubt very much it was released from there.  I just think it is at least as likely that it originated there rather than in Russia.

There is a lot about this situation that makes absolutely no sense to me.  Not least of which is Boris Johnson saying that Putin personally ordered it.

Not least of which is Boris Johnson saying that Putin personally ordering it.

Perhaps we already knew it was going to happen and couldn’t do anything about it with blowing the cover of our super spy in moscow/or that we can hack Putins personnal phone, The “we tested the substance and it’s russian so putin is guilty” is a ruse, we knew whom to blame all along.

Can we have a no sarcasm rule on this thread please?  The situation has gone so far beyond parody it’s impossible to tell if people are being serious or not.