• This topic has 47 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by thols2.
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  • What else needs changed if the steerer is longer?
  • Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Got a Bird Aeris 120 LT in large…I’m 6’1″ and it fits well – but does look small.

    Having ridden in a standard 90s position since I started, I’m thinking I need to raise the handlebar a bit so I can see further ahead.

    Handlebar is about 5″ lower than my saddle but I’m lanky so need the saddle up.

    So I’m thinking I’d maybe like new forks and with that means I could leave the steerer long and raise the bar a bit…maybe 20mm at most. However that will move the bar back a bit, so what else do I need to change?

    I’m thinking a slightly longer stem to compensate for the closer position – if that is right, how much longer?

    I’m just having a think just now as forks aren’t in stock so plenty of time to consider but I’m also needing to consider what else needs changed if I do get the bar moved up by using a longer steerer.

    Thanks.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Why not just fit some riser bars? You’ll have the added advantage that you can play with reach by twisting them forward or back. A lot cheaper than new forks, you can even try a few different ones and still have a lot of change

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Forgot to say, bars are 35mm rise and I’m not keen on going higher as it’ll look like a BMX! 😉

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    get a stem with a bit of rise (or a bit more rise) than you currently have?

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    Im 6-1 if I really stretch, and on the same bike. But we are clearly very different shapes:

    Handlebar is about 5″ lower than my saddle but I’m lanky so need the saddle up.

    My bars are level with the saddle when it is in the pedalling position

    To answer the first question:

    raise the bar a bit…maybe 20mm at most. However that will move the bar back a bit, so what else do I need to change? I’m thinking a slightly longer stem

    ~10mm. But dont. You’re compromising (or at least affecting) the handling, to allegedly improve seated fit. Thats a big no-no on a modern trail bike.

    If you are raising the bars you will be rotating your body back – pivoting at the hip. In which case, you don’t want to be maintaining the same ETT number, as it wont be comparable.

    Premier Icon sockpuppet
    Full Member

    Can you buy a stem with some rise if you won’t buy riser bars?

    Buying a new fork seems a bit OTT to me.

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Stem is a 40mm and suspect zero rise…will I need to increase length if height rises? If so, it won’t surely be 1 for 1 so a 20mm rise of steerer won’t be 20mm length added to stem, but I’m not sure what it would be…

    I’ll see if I can find any stems with some rise on them, I’m guessing very few 40mm stems that fit a 35mm bar…

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    @ayjaydoubleyou – so I leave stem alone?

    I’m proper lanky…34″ inside leg and arms aren’t much shorter…all seems proportional but I’m lanky…saddle is high – I’ve a 150mm dropper with about another 50mm of post sticking out…so it is high.

    Ride position is comfy, but I’m thinking I need to try to raise bars a bit to allow me to look up and ahead more as I’ve grown lazy and I’d like to get faster so need to be looking ahead more – not so easy with backside way up as I’m clearly not as flexible as I used to be!

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    bars 5″ below seat is a really weird riding position for an MTB

    Premier Icon suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    “bars 5″ below seat is a really weird riding position for an MTB”

    even in the 80s…

    Premier Icon honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Burgtec do a 50mm rise bar, that and/or a new air spring g to increase fork travel might do it.

    https://burgtec.co.uk/product/josh-bryceland-signature-alloy-handlebar-ride-high/

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    Forgot to say, bars are 35mm rise and I’m not keen on going higher as it’ll look like a BMX!

    Who GAS what it looks like.

    bars 5″ below seat is a really weird riding position for an MTB

    Spot the short-arses.

    35″ inside leg here and until bikes started to be properly sized I always ended up with bars far lower than seat.

    I’ve a 29er plus 50mm spacers and 38mm risers – and 70mm of a 170mm dropper sticking out of the seat tube… My HT is running a 200mm dropper, with post showing.

    Amazing how much easier it is on the super steeps with bars nearer saddle height, rather than way below.

    Premier Icon dc1988
    Free Member

    It does sound like a big drop between saddle and bars, I’m 6’5″ and don’t have that much drop! I’ve got quite a lot of headset spacers, high rise bars and dmr defy stem to try and raise the front as much as I need.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Full Member

    I think the OP recognises that the bars are very low, hence the questions regarding how to raise them!

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Right, more rise on the bars and see if I’ve room to lift the stem any more then…I’m saying 5″ it is likely to be less than that, but it was more the fact the bars are much lower than the saddle…as someone has said, not always possible for taller riders to get bar at same height as saddle, but it has worked for me up until recently (which suggests I’ve been a really bad rider all these years if I’m just finding it out now that it isn’t the best position for going faster!)

    Thanks for the input, it has been useful so far.

    Premier Icon bigyan
    Free Member

    Depending on what the forks are worth it may be cost effective to just replace the steerer?

    Obviously if you want new forks you want new forks!

    Premier Icon davros
    Full Member

    DMR defy stem is low stack with a 5mm rise.

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Thanks, useful to know.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    not always possible for taller riders to get bar at same height as saddle,

    Errmmm – riser bars, angled stem etc.

    Ok Im a dwarf but ………………

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Handlebar is about 5″ lower than my saddle

    Inches or centimeters? I used to run XC bikes with the bars about 2″ below the saddle. Now I run pretty much all my bikes with the bars level with the saddle. 5″ is pretty extreme.

    Some riser bars and longer stem with more rise will be a lot cheaper than a new fork. If you’re worried about what people think, just keep in mind that you look ridiculous with your bars 5″ below your saddle and your arse poking up in the air.

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/spank-spoon-800-skyscraper-riser-handlebar/rp-prod197255

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Nukeproof Horizon 38mm rise bar is good, I used that with a DMR Defy stem (which has a slight rise as well) when I had a shorter steerer.

    I could sell you the Defy stem if you wanted to buy a 31.8mm high rise bar.

    It doesn’t look weird, a lot of the cool kids are running high-rise bars now as they don’t compromise the bike’s reach so much as going higher up the steerer.

    Premier Icon fooman
    Free Member

    Also a longer crank will bring seat down a bit.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    a lot of the cool kids are running high-rise bars now as they don’t compromise the bike’s reach so much as going higher up the steerer.

    If your grips are in the same position relative to the cranks and saddle, it makes no difference to the reach whether you run riser bars or a longer steerer. If you have the bars higher, the effective reach will be shorter.

    Premier Icon joebristol
    Full Member

    What forks are on there and how much travel are they running?

    I’ve got an aether 7 which is quite similar and running 150mm forks on it. I think the headtubes on Bird can be quite short – I’ve got quite a stack of spacers under my stem / 25mm rise bar.

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    Pike Select at 140mm, steerer has a 5mm spacer above stem so I could lift bar slightly…off to go replace the bars with a higher rise as well…

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    If your grips are in the same position relative to the cranks and saddle

    They’re not, that’s the point innit?

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    If your grips are in the same position relative to the cranks and saddle

    They’re not, that’s the point innit?

    It doesn’t look weird, a lot of the cool kids are running high-rise bars now as they don’t compromise the bike’s reach so much as going higher up the steerer.

    There are different ways of raising the grips. One is to put spacers under the stem. Another is to fit a stem with more rise. Another is to fit bars with more rise. All of these will reduce the effective reach. If the grips end up in the same position, the effective reach will be the same. It doesn’t matter how the grips got there, just where they ended up relative to the BB.

    Premier Icon dc1988
    Free Member

    The DMR defy stem is only 5mm rise but because the stack is very low you can have it further up your steerer (more spacers below) and get a bit more height than with another 5mm rise stem.

    I think the saddle to bar drop is a bit of an old school thing, shorter bikes needed more weight over the front as the reach/chainstay was much less. I had a big drop on my old 26″ bike but now it’s probably only 1″ on my 29er but the reach has grown by 70mm. There isn’t a right or wrong answer but modern geometry will generally let you have a higher bar for a more comfortable position.

    Premier Icon Rickos
    Free Member

    Replace the steerer for a longer one. These guys do loads, check their Insta.

    https://www.rsfsus.co.uk/

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    If the grips end up in the same position

    A high-rise bar keeps the grips further forward than a low rise one higher up the steerer.

    Does that make sense to you now?

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    A high-rise bar keeps the grips further forward than a low rise one higher up the steerer.

    Reach isn’t measured to the bars, it’s measured to the steering axis. It’s normally measured at the top headset bearing, but that’s not useful if you raise the bars a lot. The effective reach is measured to the height of the grips. It’s still measured to the steering axis. The higher the grips, the shorter the reach. It makes no difference whether you use riser bars, a riser stem, or put spacers under the stem because the steering axis does not move.

    Does that make sense to you now? (Hint: You have to think about what reach actually is before you will understand it.)

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    You were talking about grip position.

    High rise bars also enable the stem to be clamped lower down the steering axis.

    Does that make sense to you now?

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    You were talking about grip position.

    High rise bars also enable the stem to be clamped lower down the steering axis.

    It doesn’t affect the reach. If you have the grips at the same height, the reach is the same. If you lower the grips, the reach is longer. If you raise them, the reach is shorter.

    Try thinking about it and it might start to make sense. You could even draw a picture if that helps.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Stated frame reach is the measurement out from the BB to a point parallel with the centre of the top of the head tube.

    It’s a bit of a vague measurement because head tubes vary in length, but if you consider the variables, it’s still a great indicator of how well a frame will fit.

    Clamping the stem higher on the steerer can artificially reduce the reach a bit, by bringing back the effective centre of the top of the head tube. Thus keeping the clamp point lower and using high rise bars preserves the reach.

    Stop being sanctimonious and think for a minute about what I’d written. I’m going to leave it here because if the penny doesn’t drop now, it never will.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Thus keeping the clamp point lower and using high rise bars preserves the reach.

    It does no such thing. The stated reach is to the top headset bearing. This is not much use if you raise the bars a lot. The effective reach is to the point on the steering axis at the level of the grips. This is the most useful indication of how well the bike will fit a given rider. It makes no difference whether you put spacers under the stem, use a riser stem, or a riser bar; if the grips are at the same height relative to the BB, the reach is the same. The only thing that matters to effective reach is how high the grips are.

    Stop being sanctimonious and think for a minute about what I’d written. You really do not understand this very simple geometry question.

    Premier Icon jamescarters
    Full Member

    I have a 35*31.8 defy in my parts box, PM me if you are interested

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    @ayjaydoubleyou – so I leave stem alone?

    If you like how it corners now, yes or you’ll just be swapping one issues with another.

    I’ve a 150mm dropper with about another 50mm of post sticking out…so it is high.

    I’ve got a 170 dropper with about 40mm sticking out the frame on the same large 120LT. So I think that your 5 inch is quite a way off. I have a photo (that I cant figure out how to post) of my bike, proped against a fence with the bars turned, taken from a bit of an angle, and I can see how it appears that my bars look 4-5 inches below saddle. The heavily sloping top tube is also helping with this optical illusion.

    But if I put the bars straight and photograph it in line, with a nice background like a brick wall with a horizontal line for reference the saddle and bars are about level.

    I have (I think) 15mm spacers, 40mm rise bars, 35mm long stem with no rise.

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    How long are your legs?

    Premier Icon LAT
    Full Member

    if you raise the height of your grips by putting spacers under the stem, the position of the grips will move towards the saddle as well as upwards

    if you raise the height of your grips by fitting a higher rise handlebar the grips will only move upwards.

    to picture this, imagine a 0mm length stem. to raise the grips with spacers the stem moves up and back, moving the grips up and back dictated by the angle of the head tube. if you put a higher rise bar on the same imaginary stem, the grips will only go up as the rise of the bar is completely unrelated to the angle of the head tube, but it will put the grips in a different location relative to the steering angle, but so would changing to bars with a different back sweep.

    to reply to the op’s question, if you want the bars higher, but without moving your hand position backwards, i’d say a higher rise bar is best. there is a german brand, ergotech or similar name who make bars in many shapes. they aren’t the lightest, but they are well priced and that makes them ideal for experimenting.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    if you raise the height of your grips by putting spacers under the stem, the position of the grips will move towards the saddle as well as upwards

    if you raise the height of your grips by fitting a higher rise handlebar the grips will only move upwards.

    Reach is the horizontal distance from the BB axle to the steering axis. It’s not to the grips, it’s to the center of the steerer. Fitting a longer stem does not increase the reach, it moves the bars forward. Raising the grips by fitting riser bars will reduce the effective reach, even if the grips haven’t moved horizontally. This is because reach is not measured to the bars, but to the steering axis.

    Manufacturers publish reach figures measured at the top of the head tube. This is not particularly useful if you are tall and run your bars a lot higher than stock. A much more useful measurement to determine whether a bike will fit a specific rider is to calculate effective reach at the level of the handlebars. This is basically the reach measurement you would get if you extended the headtube enough to run a zero rise stem with flat bars. By raising the bars, you will always reduce the effective reach.

    It does not matter how you get the grips to your preferred height. You can fit spacers, you can fit a riser stem, you can fit a riser bar. The only thing that matters as far as effective reach is concerned is the height of the grips. If you raise your grips by 50 mm, the effective reach will be reduced by about 20 mm.

    Having found a suitable height for your grips, you can then try different stem lengths and bar sweep to find a comfortable setup for you. Provided you are not changing the height of the grips above the BB, this does not change the reach because the reach is measured to the steering axis, not the bars.

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