What can be done to encourage healthy living?

So only skinny people cycle? What about endless amounts of people who lose weight taking up cycling? The problem in reality is that government guidelines for exercise levels are too low.

Obviously calories in and calories out is far too simplistic but at the end of the day you cannot cheat physics no matter how hard you try.

Ta Lorax.  Makes sense.

Not *only* skinny people @anagallis_argensis, but your sample is clearly not representative of the general population so there’s some sort of skew going on.

Really?  On my big bike ride Iost 2 stone eating 4000ish calories per day

It’s complicated.

There comes a point where if you’re doing extreme amounts of exercise per day, then it becomes almost impossible to compensate for the increased amount of energy expenditure and people will lose weight. But this is in extreme circumstances such as endurance bike rides like yours or professional athletes for example.

However at lesser levels of activity, although you will see an initial increase in energy usage, over time 3 things seem to happen to mitigate against it-

• You learn to do the activity more efficiently and so use less energy when doing it.
• You tend to use less energy when not doing the activity, so your daily energy requirements tend to return back towards their long term norms.
• Your energy intake tends to increase to compensate for any extra energy used.

It isn’t that *only* skinny people cycle, but cycling does tend to attract a certain body type.

I’m interested to know where these endless amounts of fat people who’ve become thin through cycling are, because I’ve certainly not met them.

Ta Kramer – that makes sense

There was a well publicized one in the US where a morbidly obese man started cycling and got down to a healthy weight.  Cycling rather than driving to work will make a differnce.  I went from a 1 mile commute to a 7 mile commute and lost half a stone with no other changes

Anyway thats drifting from the point rather – the key thing IMO is to get the big food companies under control and ban high fructose corn syrup

It’s complicated

translation: it’s absolute bollocks which I cannot substantiate and I know it 🙂 Your third point completely refutes your initial assertion, for one thing.

I’m interested to know where these endless amounts of fat peoplee who’ve become thin through cycling are, because I’ve certainly not met them.

conformation bias then, rather than anything else. I’m one of those people you’ve never met. I also know multiple other  people who’ve lost weight by getting into cycling later in life (I only started in my 30s).

My sister (49) and niece (22) are both obese, smoke/vape and love getting pissed. If I point the obvious path this leads to, they say “we won’t live that long, so its no problem “. I’ve no idea how you can fix that kind of thinking, especially when our Dad/Grandad had very poor health in his last 20 years due to obesity.

I have pointed out that they will live a long time because the GP will give them a plethora of drugs to keep them limping along.

So yes, I think that sadly, some of us need protecting from ourselves.

Dad had a heart attack and triple heart bypass last year. He’s still mainlining bacon and sausages and doing no exercise. It’s infuriating. He then sulks when me and Sister have a go at him for continuing to be a vegetable confiting himself in pig grease. Little Sister is soft with him and tells him to ignore her elder siblings.

Hi friend is about to lose a leg to diabetes, still drinking and eating rubbish   Now worried about not being able to go on holiday, rather than losing a leg.

All in their 60s, don’t care about longevity. All surprised to have made it this far. How do you change those mindsets? Because nothing works, not even grim reality.

anagallis_argensis, but your sample is clearly not representative of the general population so there’s some sort of skew going on.

I think that was my point

All in their 60s, don’t care about longevity. All surprised to have made it this far. How do you change those mindsets? Because nothing works, not even grim reality.

You probably don’t but what % of unhealthy people who are unhealthy in areas a government could do something about have that sort of mindset?  Who knows.

They could start by addressing this https://www.ippr.org/media-office/years-of-under-investment-in-englands-streets-has-left-people-walk-wary-and-cycle-cautious-says-new-report

And actually build/rebuild infrastructure for living, not driving.

translation: it’s absolute bollocks which I cannot substantiate and I know it 🙂 Your third point completely refutes your initial assertion, for one thing.

You may or may not choose to believe it, but please remain polite.

It seems to me that there are two of us on this thread who probably know more about obesity and public health, and that we’re broadly in agreement, it’s just that we disagree with you.

I’m one of those people you’ve never met. I also know multiple other  people who’ve lost weight by getting into cycling later in life

I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible  obese as a result of poverty . Serious cycling is not cheap and anyone with the disposable income and the desire to become healthier via cycling is likely to be able to afford to, and want to, make other changes to their diet at the same time.

tjagainFull Member
as mentioned above we also need to change attitudes to obesity.  My GP told me I am slim.  I am actually right at the top edge of “normal”  BMI pushing towards overweight and at least a stone overweight

This. Obesity has become normalised. Being slim is becoming a rarity, and people see being “chubby” as being ok.

I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty . Serious cycling is not cheap and anyone with the disposable income and the desire to become healthier via cycling is likely to be able to afford to, and want to, make other changes to their diet at the same time.

This is a society wide problem. It’s not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy. We must stop talking like it is a from for ‘them’. Yes, the solutions might differ for different sectors of the population but in the example above, this person who got on a bike and changed other aspects of their life previously hadn’t. We need more of those success stories because for every one of those with the disposable income and wherewithal to do something about it who does there are….15 or 20 (pure guess work) who are not.

It seems to me that there are two of us on this thread who probably know more about obesity and public health, and that we’re broadly in agreement, it’s just that we disagree with you.

this.

I think that was my point

@anagallis_arvensis: Based on your post on the ‘Unspoken battles with your other half…’ thread my wife thinks you and I are the same person, so it’s good to see that we agree 🙂

This is a society wide problem. It’s not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy.

in my observations around here in the poorer areas you see fat women and thin men, in the affluent areas its skinny women and fat men

How do people feel about enforcing calorie information on restaurant and takeaway foods?

Meta studies show that it doesn’t really make any difference. The most succes that has ever been shown for schemes like this is that they can do briefly as folks go “Look at the calories in that” and may make temporary changes, and then they either don’t look any more, or make a decision that goes “I want a burger anyway, so I may as well have the 750 Kcal one over the 500Kcal one”. If it makes a difference to you personally, it’s likely that you would do that anyway, for most of the folks that should pay attention to it, won’t. Plus it’s pretty bad overall for the mental health of folks that have food based mental health issue.

But, it’s a cheap way for the Govt – like pictures of diseased lungs on cigarette packets, to be able to say that they’re providing information, or they taken steps to alert people to what’s in their food, or some other such nonsense. About the only indicator that folks pay attention to, and that’s easily identifiable is the coloured traffic light system. Which is why the food industry has -successfully so far , lobbied hard against its wider uptake.

Driving everywhere has become just so normalised and so few kids cycle or walk to school so don’t get the experience at the start of their lives, even on here there are many threads about what car/insurance to get my son/daughter. Going back over 20yrs now but my son got called names because he cycled to secondary school. Where I live now there is a half decent shared use path which has recently just been linked up to the local school with HS2 funding & guess what a fair few kids cycle to school. No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn’t the infrastructure in place to start with.

I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible  obese as a result of poverty

No one is obese as a result of poverty, you are confusing cause and effect with a correlation. Obesity is caused by over eating, especially poor quality food, and lack of exercise. These two things are closely linked with poverty for many obvious reasons.

The suggestion that exercise is not linked to reduced obesity is ridiculous. I agree that telling obese people to exercise is not helpful and I agree that even when they do exercise it doesn’t help much this is because this:

You learn to do the activity more efficiently and so use less energy when doing it.

Is also bollocks Pogacar does not have more efficient mitochondria than me, he has more mitochondria, so he burns more fuel, I also burn more fuel than an obese person starting biking if we both did an hour’s ride at a similar level of exertion. I might do 200w they might do 100w, I have burnt more fuel. This is the crux of why exercising to lose weight is tough. But sticking at it and getting fitted will see benefits as you will start to burn more fuel. Easier said than done obviously.

Look at the calories in that

Another big problem, we should not be looking at the calories in the food but the calories absorbed into the blood from the food. 300kJ of carrots compared to 300kJ of ultra processed pizza or whatever will affect the body differently.

Calorie labelling on menus has little impact on consumer behaviour, but may lead to beneficial reformulation of the food itself.

No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn’t the infrastructure in place to start with.

Spot-on @Dickyboy – and this applies just as much to diet as it does to physical activity.

Is also bollocks

In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given GPS trackers to measure their activity and turns out that they expend almost identical energy as the average office worker although they still move around much more. It’s probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance. They compensate by resting more, and their bodies are more efficient at doing the long distance hunting thing.

Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we’ve created  for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)

In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given

That’s great but what does it have to do with the UK’s obesity epidemic. I reckon all of us are not hunter gatherers

It’s probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance

What does this even mean?

Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we’ve created for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)

Do you have evidence for this? Care to address the point I made or not Pog is not more efficient than me at a cellular respiration level

I’m noticing that there are a lot more fat young (20’s) people lately (predominantly girls) and it’s not exclusively in areas you’d associate with poverty.

A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn’t helping (due to their lifestyle outside of the gym), who knows?

Whilst poverty can lead to bad habits and obesity, there are a lot of overweight/obese people in all walks of life these days that probably aren’t poor

There’s also the fact that we covered a while back (I used Lizzo as an example) that the media celebrate/normalise being fat these days

What does this even mean?

That genetically; all humans are broadly alike. If you stuck the Hazda in our environment, regardless of how many miles and miles they might want to trek, they’d probably over generations show the same sorts of weight gains the we do. It’s more beneficial to study these people than it is to compare yourself to a genetic freak like Pogacar.

That genetically; all humans are broadly alike.

But

a genetic freak like Pogacar.

We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles. My point about Pog and cellular respiration is valid just as much as my example of comparing me with a non cyclist, I can likely put out twice the power of a non cyclist so use twice the energy. This energy has to come from food so I can eat more and not gain weight. Losing weight comes from a calorie deficit. That can be produced from less energy into the blood from food or more used from exercise, to try to deny this is ridiculous and would mean rewriting the laws of physics. I accept it’s a simplification  of how you can actually lose weight and I accept that losing weight isn’t easy but calorie deficit will lead to weight loss (again it must be calories absorbed not consumed). I bet these hunter gatherers you like talking about were absorbing far less calories than they were eating in comparison to a typical UK family

A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn’t helping

I see quite a few overweight people downing protein shakes and energy drinks all the time so that they can go to the gym or recover from the gym…..

We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles.

But how you process the same food can be massively different to how the next person does; Gut biome, metabolism and so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different* Comparing one person against another person isn’t worthwhile. Comparing groups is. In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn’t gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food. Highly processed food is the link to all these studies, we’re not eating the same food that our parents and grandparents ate, and it’s making us fat.

*although, humans aren’t calorimeters, we’re not ‘burning’ our food.

@anagallis_arvensis

Is also bollocks

You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.

No one is obese as a result of poverty

I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.

The latest episode of the Streets Ahead podcast features some positive rumblings from Louise Haigh MP, Secretary of State for Transport. In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash). The proof will be in the delivery, of course.

so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different

You are just talking gibberish. You seem confused intake and expenditure. You also don’t seem to have read anything I have said.

In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn’t gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food

So we agree it’s calories absorbed that is key.

You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.

Not angry at all tbh. You are talking bollocks by saying that exercise is not linked to obesity, it may be a smaller factor than diet but it cannot possible not be a causative factor unless you are suggesting the laws of physics are wrong.

As eloquently pointed out by several posters; it is a complex web of determinants that leads to obesity. Different combinations of factors can lead to the same outcome but with commonalities at a population level. It doesn’t preclude that some approaches, with a more narrow focus, can work for not inconsequential numbers of people although not at a population level e.g. specific dietary and lifestyle approaches used by groups of GPs.

There is also a bigger, linked, picture around the economy, societal happiness and our health span with lots of commonalities. Changing how we structure school, educational topics and focus, activity, active transport, built environments, food environments, poverty, societal norms, attitudes towards exercise and on. So, most of us are right and wrong, do what we can wherever we can?!?

Working with patients over more than two decades, the solution to the same problem is totally different for different patients. Sometimes it is exercise, other times it might be to join a gardening or painting group. But that is only for small numbers of people, with support, and not going to change anything at a population level. 🙂

In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash).

Anecdotally, a good chunk of NHS workers I encounter are fat

I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.

Poverty is one major factor.  Known about decades a go.  Orwell wrote about it.  This is not anything new or controversial .  Its well known and documented

Playing catch up on this thread-hence possibly already discussed, but there needs to be a shift in mindset re: obesity being an individual responsibility to ‘eat less and move more’ to a fundamental change to the system we live in which is driving obesity. Basically the environmental, wider building blocks of health (e.g. housing, economy, employment, education etc) play a far bigger role in determining our health. The Foresight report already cited earlier in the thread shows the huge range of factors in the system map  that influence energy balance and shows sheer complexity of this challenge. Having deduced who Lorax is, the reality is that there is no single solution to tackling obesity! Responsibility also does not sit with one organisation etc- there needs to be shared understanding of this complexity and how everyone has a role to play. Prevention of obesity and enabling children to have a healthy weight to enable future generation to start on lower risk trajectory is crucial. At an individual level, there will remain a need for effective weight management support (despite GLP-1 and GIP RA drugs with proven efficacy for weight loss, weight loss maintenance remains the million dollar question even following bariatric surgery). Further challenge is the misunderstanding, stigma and discrimination regarding people living with obesity, which is stopping people from getting treatment and support.