Well scotland didnt get independance, thread

They had some scotchman on the news this morning. Saying he was ashamed of scotch folk who didn’t vote for independence. Also you were not really scottish if you didn’t vote his way.

The ‘Yes’ campaign in a nutshell; not based on sense, but a cock-eyed hatred of being stuck to England.

How many millions did that cost, then?

I am pleased GB remains as one, but disappointed as a yes vote would have made for exiting times and would have been interesting as an observer looking from the outside in.

Well yes it would and not just fo Scotland, there would have been few individuals down south who would have gone as well.

I seem to recall he’s signed pledges in the past though

I’m no fan of Cleggy….far from it, but his pledges were based on his party achieving power. They didn’t get close, but managed a bit part where they could exert some influence.

You can hardly hold him responsible for not delivering some or any of those promises…..especially when Labour had already done a runner wiv our cash!

Does the SNP take votes away from labour? Could the Tories be ousted if more of Scotland voted Labour?

I’d like to see the SNP take one for the team now they know they’re not going to get independence. Shove some votes Labour’s way and try and break the Tory hegemony. Tories will lose the mindless morons to UKIP and we can have some meaningful debates.

Everyone has lost, it’s just that the No voters haven’t realised it yet. Soon they’ll find out what a Westminster promise is really worth.

Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.

Plus I spent six hours in a BBC studio and haven’t had any sleep, so very grumpy 😉

The ‘Yes’ campaign in a nutshell; not based on sense, but a cock-eyed hatred of being stuck to England.

I’ve heard that before, but always from some Englishman enough chips on his shoulder to resurface the A9. What’s it about? Just not happy that a lot of us think we’d be in a better place without you?

Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.

I don’t know with this.

It just feels like people want to define a ‘tribe’ of like minded people who they define as ‘us’ and make everyone else ‘them’. they just keep reducing the size of the tribe until it fits their world view. I’m not entirely comfortable with it.

I’m not a Scottish resident but I think I’d be proud of everyone who participated in both the process leading up to it and the actual voting.

I think it should be used a paragon of the democratic process for the world to study, regardless of the actual outcome.

Does the SNP take votes away from labour? Could the Tories be ousted if more of Scotland voted Labour?
I’d like to see the SNP take one for the team now they know they’re not going to get independence. Shove some votes Labour’s way and try and break the Tory hegemony

Unlikely, up here Labour are seen as NuBlu labour, just a branch of the Tories which is why of around 50 MPs, Scotland will return about 1 Tory. That’s why the SNP got in in the first place. Nothing, IMO, to do with independence, which is why there was such a strong majority of No voters until a few months ago.

It just feels like people want to define a ‘tribe’ of like minded people who they define as ‘us’ and make everyone else ‘them’. they just keep reducing the size of the tribe until it fits their world view. I’m not entirely comfortable with it.

I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that’s sweetly optimistic and they’ll be bitterly disappointed.

ScottChegg – Member
They had some scotchman….

You lost any sense of reason after that point.

I’m not a Scottish resident but I think I’d be proud of everyone who participated in both the process leading up to it and the actual voting.

I think it should be used a paragon of the democratic process for the world to study, regardless of the actual outcome.
+1 – 80+% of the electorate voted, more than 3.5million votes cast with around 3000 spoiled papers.

Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.

Disappointing that people have to assume that ‘the others’ voted for wrong reasons.

I’m minded of Neil Oliver’s reasoning for supporting No.

People living in a fishing town in Cornwall have more in common with the inhabitants of a fishing town in Fife than either population has with the folk of a town in the Midlands. They have a shared experience and a common history of coping with lives shaped by the sea. The coast is another country – the fifth country – and it unites and binds us like the hem of a garment.

While I can see that rightful disillusionment with politics and the circumstance of being a separate country might make potential independence a tempting option, I just don’t see it as the right way to go about it.

I’m very pleased that my Scottish family and friends continue to be part of the UK.

I’ve heard that before, but always from some Englishman enough chips on his shoulder to resurface the A9

FWIW, I’ve heard this from a couple of the Scots I know though as they’d say it’s very dependent on where you are as to how likely that attitude is to be prevalent and not indicative of the way most people things – ie some people are stupid just like everywhere. who’d have thought it, eh?

I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that’s sweetly optimistic and they’ll be bitterly disappointed.

Anyone expecting *any* politician to keep their promises is likely to be disappointed, regardless of the body they’re elected to.

I suspect a lot of people just felt that moving the seat of government to a different location would make no material difference to their lives whilst introducing more risk than they were comfortable with.

I suspect a lot of people just felt that moving the seat of government to a different location would make no material difference to their lives whilst introducing more risk than they were comfortable with.

Seems to be the general consensus of the No voting Scots I know. Politicians will be politicians and it was never clear what they would be voting for on ‘Yes’ – which was clearly a deliberate tactic from Westminster, along with not allowing Devo Max as an option (which clearly almost, but probably was never going to, backfire).

At a quick glance it appears that the more deprived areas of Scotland have had a stronger Yes vote. If that isn’t a cry for help I don’t know what is.

I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No

FFS Ben, its all laid out out in minute detail in ‘that thread’. Quite simply, enough people weren’t taken in by the hyperbole and kept their heads!

Quite simply, enough people weren’t taken in by the hyperbole and kept their heads

I voted no and it was pretty much this^

At a quick glance it appears that the more deprived areas of Scotland have had a stronger Yes vote. If that isn’t a cry for help I don’t know what is.

or perhaps that urban centric politics isn’t representative of the rest of the country? Plenty of poverty in the countryside!

Yes majority areas in blue:

And that’s now going to be the debate – the Yes camp will continue to claim that Scotland would have been Eden except for those stupid/gullible/whatever people who voted No (and it’d have been the same but the other way around if Yes had won). And I expect that’ll reverberate for some time now given that another referendum is very unlikely to happen for a long time now.

I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that’s sweetly optimistic and they’ll be bitterly disappointed.

It’s because they’re British. That’s their identity. Simple as that.

I voted “Not Proven”…

Disappointing that people have to assume that ‘the others’ voted for wrong reasons.

I think a lot of them voted wrongly for good reasons.

That’s fine – that’s just opinion, it’s where the inference is that people have done something wrong for listening to the debate (and IIRC there was a little bit of it…) and making their own minds up.

Isn’t democracy brilliant? The informed minority get frustrated by the ignorant majority.

Everyone has lost, it’s just that the No voters haven’t realised it yet. Soon they’ll find out what a Westminster promise is really worth.

But first and foremost, YOU lost. 😈

I agree with this in some ways. I think we need to find out why people voted No. If it was because they really believe that the Westminster parties will keep their promises, that simply voting Labour at the next election will make it all better, then that’s sweetly optimistic and they’ll be bitterly disappointed.

Its not about politicians and their empty promises, Its as Bill Clinton puts it “its the economy stupid”. Economic uncertainty and the SNP’s refusal to answer anything with weight swung it.

That’s a bit of a shame as its the one reason why we are reluctant to stand up to Russia, economies are globally linked these days, and no one appears to want to cock that up.

SNP’s refusal to answer anything with weight

Well as I said, they had been deliberately hamstrung to some extent by Westminster.

no one appears to want to cock that up.

OTOH, it’s what may well stop any conflict with Russia escalating excessively – everyone loses out economically if there was a breakdown in that trade.

And Molls wonders why I’m cynical?

We’ve been through this before. It’s not possible to make hard and fast pledges like that, but the electorate demand that they do it. So they are bound to fail on plenty of promises, even for sound reasons (not referring to any particular case). Then cynics like you just go off on one, again. Doesn’t help the process tbh.

It would appear that people living in the western ‘democracies’ are content to sacrifice any form of influence and self-determination to the political and corporate establishment

Do me a favour. Scotland don’t have ‘any form of influence and self determination’? They have a proportional number of MPs*, and have had influence far above that. How many top politicians have been Scottish? How many influential historical figures?

You’re off your rocker. Get over your victim complex.

* AND their own parliament

Everyone has lost, it’s just that the No voters haven’t realised it yet.

Aye, right. A No vote was a vote to keep Scotland attached to it’s major export market. Not everyone can be an artisan bike maker you know, some (i.e. most) of us are employed by global or UK organisations that rely on the UK being united.

Everyone has won, it’s just that the Yes voters haven’t realised it yet.

See what I did there? 🙂 Just as valid a statement.

Would it be worth Scotland losing the benefit of the Barnett formula in return for setting their own taxation and spending?

Would it be worth Scotland losing the benefit of the Barnett formula in return for setting their own taxation and spending?

Only if we get control of the oil revenues. Which we won’t. Otherwise, it’s a £4bn hole in the Scottish budget every year.

See what I did there? Just as valid a statement

Indeed Nemesis and to back it up, the pound is rallying strongly, shares in RBS have risen by 4%.

That’s just those dodgy bankers making some money having deliberately dropped sterling a couple of days ago… 🙂

Don’t forget that labour would be screwed without Scotland.

Whilst I can agree with the sentiment in general terms, surely Dave & The T’s would’ve benefitted more from Scotland voting Yes? They would probably have been in Government for years if Labour had lost their Scottish voters.

Why do people keep repeating these myths? The last time Labour needed Scotland to get into government was 1974
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge97/seats97.htm
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/e01/seats.htm
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm
a majority for Labour in England in each of those elections.

The weakness of the current Labour party is a completely unrelated issue!

The UK’s third city doesn’t want to be in the UK. And the No win was entirely down to the over-65s.

Change is going to come. Just not now.

Only if we get control of the oil revenues. Which we won’t. Otherwise, it’s a £4bn hole in the Scottish budget every year.

On the basis Ben, that our nation is over 300 yrs old and oil has only become a factor since the 1970’s….you then realise that oil is actually an irrelevence in the whole scheme of things. The UK is about SO much more than that.

Change is going to come. Just not now.

Like I said earlier Ben, you’ll be muttering into you beer for years!

Let it go….its not healthy. 🙂

Everyone has lost, it’s just that the No voters haven’t realised it yet. Soon they’ll find out what a Westminster promise is really worth.

Feeling very proud of my city, not so my country this morning.

How incredibly gracious of you. 🙄

The UK’s third city doesn’t want to be in the UK.

Oh, did they all vote Yes then?

And the No win was entirely down to the over-65s.

Really?

And the No win was entirely down to the over-65s

but who’s to say that the next generation of over-65’s won’t modify their current views, become more risk/change averse and continue to believe that being part of Britain is in their best interests?

[edit]

Plus what Rockape said – Oil revenue is going to be temporary – even if it lasts another 50 years control of it is not a reason to abandon the union. 60 years ago the same argument could have been put forward for Shipbuilding and heavy industry in Scotland being able to fund the nation.

Trouble is the next time there’s a vote on this there’ll be a whole load of new over 65s who’ve perhaps come to a similar view as the current over 65s?!

Only if we get control of the oil revenues. Which we won’t. Otherwise, it’s a £4bn hole in the Scottish budget every year.

Is that not a fair trade-off then? Don’t worry about sharing the oil as get more than UK average of funding per person?

Seems Wales needs more money based on their population so something has to change.