Wales tourism tax

Yep, I’d defined less than 150k as “affordable”. But I’ve also made the point that jobs are the problem in Gwynedd, not housing availability – and evidenced that.

If you’re struggling to put together cash for a house which is approx. half the cost of the average UK property – in a place with loads of houses at that price (or less) – then it’s clear that it’s not the availability of housing that’s your problem.

If someone buys a second home to rent out – they sure as sheet aren’t looking at two bed terraces in not particularly salubrious streets to attract tourists are they? They’re looking for beach-front hideaways, or country bolt-holes – desireable places that cost a fair bit more. They’re also prepared to spend money on necessary renovations – keeping the local building trade in what is a very robust health. But they’re not pricing first-timers out of the market.

Sorry. It just ain’t true.

I dont know if the situation is the same in Wales but in the highlands and islands of Scotland job vacancies in the tourism/bàr/accomodation sector are going unfilled because the wages dont cover the cost of accomodation and living expenses.
This is leading businesses to close one òr two days a week.
The housing shortage is so bad that well payed people such às teachers are often unable to find housing within a reasonable travelling distance of their work.
Yes tourism is a vital industry for places like the highlands or west Wales but it is also vital to remember that these are places where people live work grow up marry and die.

But they’re not pricing first-timers out of the market.

Sorry. It just ain’t true.

Someone doesn’t understand housing supply. People with growing families don’t/can’t move out of their “first-timers” suitable property because they can’t afford someone bigger/nicer… because those much better off are buying those homes to leave empty half the year… this then has a knock on effect on price and availability for first time buyers. Also, remember, somewhere having cheaper properties than where you live doesn’t mean that people in the area can afford those properties.

People with growing families don’t/can’t move out of their “first-timers” suitable property because they can’t afford someone bigger/nicer

Which is why people have always had the option to move to a location where they can afford something bigger/nicer.

When I bought my first house I couldn’t afford to buy in the village that I’d grown up in so I bought a few miles away where housing was more affordable because it was less desirable than where my parents lived – should I have had a right to buy in the village were I grew up? Should I have been outraged?

Are you saying that a 3 bed semi should be the same price regardless of where it is located – Centre of London, by the beach in Poole, Dudley, Glasgow, Cardiff, etc?

Are you saying that a 3 bed semi should be the same price regardless of where it is located

No, the opposite.

Second homes owned by people living and earning elsewhere help inflate property prices beyond that that which people living and working in the area can afford. There is an additional knock on effect on local business due to seasonal occupation of too many properties that can’t be denied either.

Putting it simply… someone buying a home and moving into an area has a different effect on the local economy and people living there than… someone buying a house and leaving it empty most of the year while they live and work elsewhere. Inflating house prices that are matched with increased economic activity is one thing… inflating house prices linked to depopulation quite another.

So maybe there should be a policy where people buying second homes can only purchase homes that are/were designated through planning, and built, as “holiday homes”. (Which would include about 60-70% of the total properties in Abersoch)

This would preserve at least all of the original housing stock for people living full time in the location whilst still enabling the benefits of second homes to the area.

Unfortunately it’s too late for the vast majority of places for this to be effective but I know some councils are bring these sort of restrictions in.

Sorry @Kelvin – @sharkbait’s right – and your point has already been addressed in previous posts.

There’s lots of housing in Gwynedd – up and down the full value chain. Lots of options in the cheap, mid, high and “WTF that’s a Castle” parts of the market. Second home ownership numbers are high in a few picturesque “mayfair” towns but really vanishingly small across the whole county – and these “mayfair” towns would be dead without the tourism that makes them viable – because no other business makes them viable but tourism.

These mayfair towns – the honey-pot places – are thriving because of tourism. But every single person who wants a house and can afford a house in Gwynedd can get one – if they’ve got a decent-paying job. And the houses they can get in Gwynedd are better / bigger / cheaper than their equivalents in the rest of the country. And plentiful. Lots of cheap properties available for all.

It’s jobs. And the remedy for no jobs is to do what everyone else has to do – you have to get off your arse and MOVE.

Until and unless we reform capitalism – which as much as I’d love us to ain’t gonna happen – that’s the reality. Gwynedd is saved by tourism. It’s saved by second homes. Without tourism Gwynedd would be a poverty-stricken hole with run-down wrecked housing everywhere and damp, sad sheep.

Here’s the breakdown: https://www.visitsnowdonia.info/sites/default/files/2021-05/KPI%20ENGLISH%2029%2010%202020.pdf

£1.35 billion asof 2019. The second highest number of tourism jobs anywhere in England and Wales – because it’s lovely – but it’s got pretty much nothing else.

And despite that – lots of houses. Lots of affordable houses, up and down the chain. However, it’s also got lots of Plaid Cymru nationalist w****kers – who are kicking up a stink because people from outside the local area are changing the demographics – and they’re rich people from ABCD1* demographics coming and spending their money freely. And they’re JEALOUS.

So the narrative is a lie. It’s based on jealousy. It’s like the 1970’s and 80’s all over again.

It’s jobs.

It’s the relationship between living costs and wages. House prices would be lower if it wasn’t for people who earn their money outside the area owning property they leave empty in the area.

It’s based on jealousy.

The impact of such inequalities is more than just “jealousy”.

Sorry @Kelvin – ignoring the fact that tourism is the lifeline that keeps Gwynedd running – the percentage of second home ownership in the tiny parts of Gwynedd that has high second-home ownership isn’t enough to move the dial at all. (And we’re ignoring the fact that most second home owners are FROM Gwynedd – so not “outside the area” – they’re locals who’ve bought a holiday let).

Housing is still much much much cheaper than the national average. Despite the fact that their average and median salaries are less than the average for the UK, the housing is both plentiful and cheaper than the UK average – so they’re in no way worse off than anyone else in the UK.

The noise about housing there is a LIE. It’s an agenda pushed by Welsh nationalists.

ignoring the fact that tourism is the lifeline that keeps Gwynedd running

I wouldn’t ignore that. Doesn’t mean that empty houses and the resulting overly seasonal nature of the local economy doesn’t have downsides. Like most people, I’m a tourist who doesn’t own a second home. There are millions of us. And I’m not just talking day trippers… there are pubs, campsites… etc etc…

It’s an agenda pushed by Welsh nationalists.

If you say so. The same “agenda” is “pushed” outside Wales as well though, by people other than Welsh nationalists.

If you’re struggling to put together cash for a house which is approx. half the cost of the average UK property – in a place with loads of houses at that price (or less) – then it’s clear that it’s not the availability of housing that’s your problem.

But fundamentally, anything that pushes up prices, even a bit, is then bad for the local people competing for those homes. £100/month on a mortgage is £100 less in the local economy, which matters all the more when it’s only borderline viable anyway.

And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they’re paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare, accountants, solicitors, teachers etc etc. Rather than someone there part time buying the odd meal in the pub. Which is why the 2nd home tax is only being applied to those with low occupancy. If you can fill a house enough of the year that it would have a meaningful contribution then it doesn’t apply.

@kelvin

The same “agenda” is pushed outside Wales as well though, by people other than Welsh nationalists.

Nope. It’s a wider general argument about home affordability – which I agree with and I suspect we’re both aligned on. But in Wales, it’s being used to batter people who aren’t the problem and who are not only not causal to the problem (the problem is capitalism, ultimately) – they’re actually bringing jobs and people to the area.

Housing being expensive in general is a problem. We all get that. Battering people with holiday homes in Gwynedd for 300% council tax isn’t going to change that. If every single one of them – bar none – sold up tomorrow because the tax was too expensive then there wouldn’t be a massive house price drop. In fact, they’d struggle to sell. Because there’s plenty of housing and not enough people who want to live there.

Visit? Yep. But who wants to live where there’s no good jobs, no good prospects and if you’re lucky you’re working in pubs, restaurants or cafes?

I can live here because I WFH 100% of the time. I’ve paid my dues moving from city to city though. But I’m dependent on a single mobile tower that EE have just been fekking about with so I’ve gone from 75mbps to 12. And there ain’t no other tower, and there ain’t no landline broadband possibilities. So there’s not even the infrastructure to allow people to work remotely even if they can.

So, I’ve got sympathies with housing being expensive in the UK period. But none with the “Gwynedd” / Wales problems. Because it’s just not true.

@thisisnotaspoon

fundamentally, anything that pushes up prices, even a bit, is then bad for the local people competing for those homes

Nobody’s “competeing for homes” in Gwynedd. There’s loads of homes. Lots and lots of very cheap homes.

How many times do I have to say that?

It’s not the housing. It’s the jobs.

It’s a wider general argument about home affordability

Part of which is the impact of empty houses owned by people who only occasionally visit. Not unique to Wales at all. Whole villages in the prettier rural parts of the rest of the UK are facing the same problem.

Is the same lie about Cornwall spread by the welsh nationalists?

And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they’re paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare

Average wage in Gwynedd is 28k. After mortgage, food, petrol, whatever, that doesn’t leave a lot of spends.

People coming in (read up – they’re ABC1’s) nearly all have better salaries and bigger disposable incomes. Without those salaries and disposable incomes being spent in Gwynedd those pubs would close, those cafe’s would close – and the jobs on rubbish salaries that are supporting people in Gwynedd would disappear – because they’re dependent on tourism (and North Wales tourism is a thing all year round – sure Abersoch doesn’t ring to the sound of annoying jetskis in January but it’s pubs are open).

Second homes aren’t the problem. They’re the solution. Local people have bought second homes because there’s no jobs and its a way for them to make money when there’s no other opportunities.

People aren’t stupid. It’s NOT incomers from outside the area. The government’s own figures show it.

The housing thing is a LIE.

@towpathman – I don’t know about Cornwall. I don’t live there and don’t have 50 years experience of the local area like I do with Gwynedd. But it wouldn’t surprise me if there were significant similarities as well as signficant differences.

Local people have bought second homes because there’s no jobs and its a way for them to make money when there’s no other opportunities.

Ah… you’re describing buy to let (whether permanent residence or week by week to visitors) as “second homes”… where as the problem economically is people leaving properties empty for most of the year, ready for them to use for the odd weekend away and a nice long summer break. Full occupancy does indeed give more to the area economically, even if the property is owned by someone living and working elsewhere. That’s not a second home, that’s a local residency or business owned remotely.

It’s NOT incomers from outside the area.

Agreed, it’s people buying homes and yet not moving to the area, or renting it out as full occupancy.

Last post on this thread from me as I’ve posted way too much already:

@kelvin:

Part of which is the impact of empty houses owned by people who only occasionally visit. Not unique to Wales at all. Whole villages in the prettier rural parts of the rest of the UK are facing the same problem.

Again, this is the Mayfair point I’ve made.

If rich people weren’t buying the mayfair properties then they’d be dead fishing villages. Abersoch would be a hole with no pubs and cafes and the wider area would be poorer. Because to get a decent job on a decent wage most people will have to leave for the big smoke.

But I also say that this “absent of people in winter” issue is an exaggeration of the reality. The pubs are open, the cafes are open. It’s just a lot LOT quieter. But then it would be wouldn’t it – it’s almost unbearably busy in the summer. You’d never find me visiting on easter bank holiday weekend, or any time during the school holidays, or weekends. It’s hell on earth as far as I’m concerned.

Same for Padstow in Cornwall. Rick Stein restaruantees and barely enough room to get to the door of the pubs. Utter carnage. So by the time winter knocks round – well a lot of the tourists have dried up after depositing hewuge wads of cash on the local businesses (and litter on the beach).

But if you live outside, your house is cheap, you’re a short bike ride away from the beach. It’s just something to moan about when people are there, and something to moan about when people aren’t. And then you moan about how expensive houses are. And then you remember the jet-skiiers that you hate because they make such a racket – and you blame second home owners for all your woes, vote Brexit and sign up for Plaid Cymru. And it was better when the Englanders in the 70’s knew to be respectful or you’d happily set fire to their house.

But Ceridwen’s airbnb? They should exempt her. She’s local.

And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they’re paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare, accountants, solicitors, teachers etc etc. Rather than someone there part time buying the odd meal in the pub.

And that’s where you’re actually quite wrong – just a few examples:

Owners of second homes use more local trades than people who live there purely because no-one has a second home to go there and do the decorating and mow the lawn.

In fact second homes that are rented means they are redecorated far more frequently than normal as they get more wear and tear and always need to look their best.

The same goes for the actual buildings.  Second homes are more likely to have alterations, repairs, extensions, etc and all of this is carried out by local tradesmen, which is one of the reasons why second homes create so many jobs.

I can guarantee that people arriving for a weeks rental don’t bring all their food with them – there’s always a mad rush of deliveries on a Friday and Saturday.

Teachers?  Not only do second home owners pay council tax but it’s now 150% EXTRA in Gwynedd – and that without using the schooling system!

No @kelvin:

here as the problem economically is people leaving properties empty for most of the year, ready for them to use for the odd weekend away and a nice long summer break

This is NOT a problem, see above. And it’s not what they’re legislating against anyway – second homes are second homes regardless of if they’re buy-to-let or houses that were originally built as “second homes” in the 1960’s for that purpose.

Absersoch is busy all year round. Because of tourists.

But if you live outside, your house is cheap, you’re a short bike ride away from the beach.

If you live inland from Padstow, your house is not cheap… house prices have been pushed up because… housing market stratification does not mean house prices are independent… people buying up coastal properties and leaving them empty pushes up prices inland. These homes may look “cheap” to you, but they have been made even more unaffordable on local incomes due to people buying second homes.

150% EXTRA in Gwynedd – and that without using the schooling system!

But the school system is still needed. Second home owners might mean fewer pupils in those schools, as their kids go to school where they really live, but the local schools still need staffing and building upkeep for those houses with families living in them all year around.

And it’s not what they’re legislating against anyway – second homes are second homes regardless of if they’re buy-to-let

That’s because the UK regulation does not allow them to make that distinction for this purpose. That’s not on Gwynedd or the Welsh Assembly, or Welsh nationalists.

Which is why the 2nd home tax is only being applied to those with low occupancy. If you can fill a house enough of the year that it would have a meaningful contribution then it doesn’t apply.

Ummmm…. no it’s being applied to everyone!

IF you can rent your house out for a touch over 6 months of the year then you can pay business rates instead of council tax.

BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.

BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.

If a house is empty over half the year… that’s low occupancy. You said up the page this doesn’t happen much.

[ EDIT: apologies, you said it’s “not a problem”… which isn’t the same thing. ]

Housing is still much much much cheaper than the national average

Maybe, but the national average is utterly bonkers. If you’re anywhere near NMW then it’s just completely unaffordable. Absurdly so.

And it’s supply and demand, there is nothing intrinsic to the process of stacking bricks up in a neat rows that means a house has to cost so much more than it did 20 years ago.

Teachers? Not only do second home owners pay council tax but it’s now 150% EXTRA in Gwynedd – and that without using the schooling system!

I dont know if that was meant for me or not @sharkbait.
But the inability of teachers to find a home within sensible commuting time of their work leads to a neverending churn of teachers and therefore a drop in educational standards, òr the education authority amalgamate schools to try to solve the problem Which always results in schools closures and job losses etc. In that situation the problem is clearly a shortage in the supply of houses.

IF you can rent your house out for a touch over 6 months of the year then you can pay business rates instead of council tax.

BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.

Most of your other posts have been reasonable but this is utter bollocks. Plenty of people will be happy to go to North Wales on holiday out of season for the right price.

OK, not Wales, but the tourist season on the islands is April to October which is 6 months and plenty of places get fully booked. We have businesses that cannot open because of staff shortages. We had a new postie that turned up last week, lasted 2 days and went home because there’s no affordable rental properties – a caravan (if you can find one) is £600+/month. The other side of this is that in the winter, lots of places simply shut down, folk sign-on and businesses expect employees not to take holidays in the summer. What has been briefly touched is that it’s not cheap to build housing here either, you’d struggle to build a 80 sq m house for £200k, which is about the same as buying an old 2-bed cottage, which will be cold and cost a fortune to heat, and still above the mortgage threshold for a couple on minimum wage. The only way to solve this is large scale investment from government to build affordable housing – but not like Help to Buy which resulted in lots of overly priced flats in rubbish locations that made property developers billions and owners left with negative equity. I don’t buy the argument about empty properties or rentals owned by non-locals – most of the income doesn’t stay local. Quite a few people do boost their incomes by doing changeovers on rentals at weekends as you can easily earn a grand a month cash-in-hand, but it doesn’t pay for things like public services, roads and infrastructure.

Maybe we could try agreeing on some things instead.

Does everyone think that the Welsh government has mismanaged Wales over the last 50 years?

Does everyone think that everyone on minimum wage in wales should be able to afford to buy a 3 bed semi-detached house close to where they work?

Yes, no for me.

Does everyone think that the Welsh government has mismanaged Wales over the last 50 years?

Hard to agree with that one given that the Welsh government hasn’t existed for 50 years.

Does everyone think that everyone on minimum wage in wales should be able to afford to buy a 3 bed semi-detached house close to where they work?

My answer to this is yes, yes they should. We all should. But the reality of the way we run our economy means that’s just not possible. But what I would say is people in Gwynedd are in a better position than most of the country.

Most of your other posts have been reasonable but this is utter bollocks.

Believe me it’s absolutely dead on. (edit: OK marginal exaggeration – it’s the case more the vast majority of rentals)

I have good friends who rent out houses and they’re all saying it’s not possible due to the number of rental properties available – it would mean having your house rented every single day from the beginning of April until the end of September.  It’s just not going to happen.

But don’t get me wrong, I am in favour of this – it should have been done ages ago.
Too many people were dodging paying council tax by running their house as a rental business and paying business rates which, because of the size of the ‘business’, were £zero!

Those that did have to pay rates paid less than the normal (100%) council tax and this money didn’t even go to the county council – it went to straight to Cardiff so it didn’t benefit the local area.
(and don’t get me started on the compensation the WG paid out to some ‘businesses’ because of Drakefords lockdown policy!!)

So now that the occupancy level has been increased many people will pay council tax instead  – which I’m in favour of.  But if the WG hadn’t made it so easy to game the system they would have been taking more money long ago.

I have good friends who rent out houses and they’re all saying it’s not possible due to the number of rental properties available – it would mean having your house rented every single day from the beginning of April until the end of September. It’s just not going to happen.

It’s perfectly possible at the right price. I’m happy to rent outside that window but I’m not prepared to pay high season rates. I had a week in Friog in March with friends that felt pricy at £500. A few years ago we rented a place up from Bets-y-Coed at £300 for the week. It’s now doubled in price so we looked elsewhere.

We are talking about a tourism tax here (on overnight stays), not the additional council tax for 2nd home owners. Presumably, it doesn’t count if you own the property!