Vinyl: I am warming to the concept … should I upgrade my deck?

I have a fair few vinyl LPs … and have steadfastly refuted the hipster vinyl trend. But I am thinking of buying a new deck …. possibly a Rega Planar 3.
Currently I have an old ProJect Debut 11 … I have just changed the actual TT, as mine was warped. But for 16 quid on ebay it was worth it. The cartridge is a Rega Carbon, std tone arm.
Being played through a Musical Fidelity Phone Amp, and then a Roksan K3 BT amp.
It sounds a bit average to be honest …
Two real options – splurge money on the Rega ( i.e. limit the amount of money on ungradinga nd still decide it sound average) or new cartridge on the Pro-ject (Ortofone Red 2M) (and maybe an acrylic TT).
Anyone have any experince …
Listened to two Regas recently and thought they sounded like a huge step up …
Would contemplate buying one s/h on ebay but current prices are may only 100 quid short of buying new …

I’ve got a Rega Planar 3 and would certainly recommend it.

Being played through a Musical Fidelity Phone Amp, and then a Roksan K3 BT amp.
It sounds a bit average to be honest

Are you sure it’s the turntable?

Vinyl: I am warming to the concept
Only about 100 years behind the curve 😉

Only about 100 years behind the curve 😉

the curve of idiocy…

Yeah, good one.

Dezb – thanks for your helpful advice. Seems I am not wrong about vinyl snobs …
I am sorry that I belitte you with my crap system.

Odd – because it sound great using digital source … so yes, it is the TT. Maybe I am just not such a early adopter slave to fashion like you …

BTW, any helpful advice would be much appreciated

What a strange reply. I’m far far removed from a vinyl snob, or hi-fi snob (they make me laugh)(except when their jokes are crap). Your current turntable is waaay better than what I have, which is why I asked the question. Never mind eh.

A lot depends on your vinyl. If it’s 70s or 80s pressings like most of mine, there’s not much you can do to make it sound good except crank it up. Typing this listening to Ruts The Crack on Chromecast/Spotify and it sounds much better than my vinyl copy.
I love vinyl, I never bought any CDs, but it is hard to convince myself it sounds any better than even a streamed MP3 😐 – different yes, and I like the ritual. Don’t have an hifi nerd setup, an old 90s NAD turntable, audiolab 8000 and a pair of BWs. Most of my records are knackered old punk albums, but some stuff on quality 180g pressings sounds wonderful.

Dee B- your reply read as being a tad patronising. Maybe it wasn’t meant that way …😏
Bob – re vinyl quality. Most of mine are 70/80s punk stuff … plus other later stuff. 80s vinyl does seem to be particularly crap. Thin and poor resolution.
However … I bought an HMV copy of the Smiths Hatful of Hollows. It is recorded so quietly the amp does have to be cranked up …
The copy of Inflammable Material I bought (original pressing) must have been mastered on a TDK D from a dansette record player ….

I think a new Planar 3 would be a good choice – its all integrated in terms of upgrades and buying second hand would not be a good idea unless you knew it was the latest model, there are lots of generations, and lots to damage – hence i would say that its worth getting one from a specialist shop where they setup and demo your turntable – that way you get to hear what it can do and a 1st opinion that it sounds right, for the investment its worth a trip.

Finishthat … thanks

On some discs , you can hear side B during the quiet bits on side A!

My copy of inflammable material has a bleb on one track and it doesn’t sound right when I hear it elsewhere and it doesn’t skip 😂

There’s a new Planar 3 just about to come out so if buying new it is worth waiting for that I would think.

Planar 3 is a good choice and it will hold it’s resale better than most.

Not sure that it is integrated though ??

Your CD player might just sound better because it’s output is ‘hotter’ at 2V and your amp might not be compensating between inputs very well. So it sounds louder, and almost everyone thinks louder sounds beter as that is the way the ear works.

Vinyl is inferior to digital – what people like, apart from the ritual, are the distortions of vinyl – like compression and channel crosstalk.

Put a commercial compressor, like radio stations use, on to the end of a cd player and somehow increase crosstalk and you will think it sounds as ‘good’ as vinyl – except that vinyl has some extra goodies like wow and flutter, noise, and the fact the cartridge is only in line with the grooves for a small part of the record surface. Plus you need a very good bearing and a good arm to reduce resonances damping the movement on the needle.

It’s a mug’s game.

Hi TurnerGuy,
Thanks … do you know when the new Planar 3 comes out?
Wait would seem like the most sensible thing to do …
👍😎

Maybe it is out – I just did a quick google and might have got an old page. See here :

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/rega-planar-3

the arm mount looks quite different from older ones.

I had a manticore mantra, which also had a glass platter and it had a felt mat.

I changed the mat to one of those stupidly-bad-value-for-money Ringmats, which are basically card and rings of cork for about £60, but the improvement was quite large – the record seem much better supported – I’d say it was like an fairly big cartridge upgrade.

http://www.ringmat.com/products/ringmat.htm

The Rega isn’t suspended so you want to make sure you have a well isolated spot for it – ideally a wall mount. If not you can layer up a base with sorbothane or those milty focalpods, or something similar.

Odd – because it sound great using digital source … so yes, it is the TT.

In which case I would agree it’s the TT which needs upgrading. Hard to advise as I haven’t listened to much vinyl kit for years and I certainly wouldn’t know what cartridge to go for now. I have a load of old Linn/Ortofon/Goldring/Nagaoka and could never really decide which I preferred. Back in the old days the perceived wisdom was you spent twice as much on the TT as you do on the amp or speakers. Not really relevant to digital sources.

I have a Rega p3, the “new model” linked above – released in 2016 IIRC

My sources are Flac/Wav or Vinyl, some of my digital releases sound better than the vinyl then also some of my vinyl sounds better than some digital.
I listen to a lot of vintage reggae and it just sounds so right on vinyl. The latest Aphex album sounds fantastic on vinyl too but I think the digital does have the edge.

Setup is P3/Ortofon Blue > Graham Slee Gram Amp 2SE > Cyrus 8 > Tannoy Revolution XT

Originally I had a cheap Little Bear phono stage but the Slee brought a fair bit more out of the TT.

Hi there.

I’ve got a Rega when I was a student years ago, now it’s in a box in the garage, and a friend has a recent one with some fancy valve amplification. They’re well made, well-designed and sound good.

For under £1,000 I think you could do much better with an old Roksan Xerxes, used to be quite a few with Rega arms which is a nice budget combination.

The ‘sound’ is similar to Rega, but more of the same qualities. I always think it sounds like a master tape.

Audio Technica make good moving coil cartridges; I got my last one s/h off eBay.

Assuming you’re not averse to secondhand kit check out Hifi Shark. You’ll probably have to wait for a deck that suits.

A lot of good used hifi equipment is available secondhand if you don’t mind having something which isn’t the latest but sounds great.

As for 70s and 80s records, I’ve been playing them all evening and they sound great. Worst one was Rubber Soul, for left/right stereo, poor mix and not much bass.

CDs are so good that I’m gradually replacing my favourites with vinyl as they become available. For sound quality, despite the ridiculous prices.

I’ve heard CDs with less noise, less crackles, but none as involving to listen to as the vinyl versions. Or with the same dynamic range.

I suggested to an engineer who has been involved in some of the better-known analogue-digital remastering that when digital media were available with the same information as studio recordings, which he says is better than vinyl, that vinyl would be superseded.

His answer was no, because with digital recordings, the cost of the electronics to match or improve on vinyl was well into six figures.

So the hi-end in hifi is still vinyl.

Let us know what you do.

Left field question … would it be worth look st the technics sl-1200 or pioneer plc 1000?
It will be going onto s hi-fi stand, which is on spikes, No opportunity for a wall mount.
Will that lack of suspension be an issue?
The Xerxes looks lovely but will be 1000 gbp plus. I like the idea of vinyl but not 3ks worth!

I would suggest that before you go spending lots of money it might be worth giving your records a good clean. I recently started on my collection with the one linked below and it makes a noticeable difference.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Knosti-1300001-DISCO-ANTISTAT-RECORD-CLEANER-Black/dp/B000BFXIVW

good point … and will consider for the future …
Went to my local secondhand record stall yesterday and somehow managed to spend 70 quid on 9 LPs …

but none as involving to listen to as the vinyl versions. Or with the same dynamic range.

Think you have a problem with your cd player. Less dynamic range my 8rs…

As for 70s and 80s records, I’ve been playing them all evening and they sound great. Worst one was Rubber Soul, for left/right stereo, poor mix and not much bass.

Mono version 😀

His answer was no, because with digital recordings, the cost of the electronics to match or improve on vinyl was well into six figures.

Eh? You mean it’s not worth playing CDs unless your amp is £100000 or more?

So the hi-end in hifi is still vinyl.

I was buying vinyl for donkeys years before CD arrived on the market and hardly anything but CD since. I’m not buying that statement.

There will be some bargains sh especially if you avoid the obvious like Rega, Linn etc.

Support is important (TT and speakers) and ring mats are fantastic and fantastic value.

Manticore mantra on ebay :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Manticore-Mantra-Hi-Fi-Record-Player-Turntable/254055618255?hash=item3b26e516cf:g:MhcAAOSw5qdcMhaj&autorefresh=true

like a suspended rega planar…

I had one but moved on to a Technics SP10 in a corian plinth.

Townshend Rock :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Townshend-Rock-7-MK2-TT-inc-Rega-RB300-Tonearm-with-Origin-Live-mods/264303309626?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3D5f355bb166e84b7393daa802f0809e51%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D163673895414%26itm%3D264303309626&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

supposed to be very good with that damping trough..

Another rock on buy it now :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Townshend-Rock-II-turntable-with-Origin-Live-RB300-arm-and-Merlin-power-supply/153401227632?hash=item23b76cf970:g:O-4AAOSw4EJcfCpX

TurnerGuy..
Tell me a bit more about the manticore … what would be the issues I might find?
Townsend rock … again, what is the background and risks.

TBH the bottom rock seems very Heath Robinson …
The manticore looks great but 35 years old … how risky is it to buy?

Bookmarked, not sure why!

I used to spend hours in Soundsville in Bristol flicking through vinyl, most of it is now in my loft (hundreds of 12″s and LPs). I have digitised most of it and my house is setup for streaming from NAS but I still have a hankering for getting another deck! I think vinyl is a crap format but I invested so much of my youth searching, buying, playing, recording it that I cannot let it go.

Not sure how long it would take me to get bored of listening to 5 tracks and then having to get up to flip it!

How do you shuffle a record? 😆

The rock would be my choice – with the end of the arm suspended in damping fluid to reduce the resonances it was supoosed to sound very good indeed. The trough reduced the need for a sh1t-hot arm made of esoteric materials.

There’s not much to the Manticore really – belt driven – thick glass platter like the rega, but bigger. Some had a speed switch, some you had to move the belt on the motor spindle – like some other decks around – or you could buy an external motor to do it I think. Think that one is the latter but you should ask the seller.

My mate still has a mantra, with an LVX arm which wasn’t as good as the RB250, which that one has – the Moth variant.

It was a better deck than the Rega and could cope with a better cartridge. But that was an old (but similar) rega planar 3.

All of those suspended designs could do with careful tweaking – the 3 springs that gave you the suspension also had some tension between them which caused different resonant frequencies – rotate one of the springs slightly and that frequency and therefore the damping would change.

Tuning Linn Sondeks was an art.

I would still have my mantra but my mate was building those Technics SP10s into Corian plinths and his had an SME series 5 on it. I’ll admit to hearing it sound better than his £4k+ CD setup, but the SME arm was at least £1500.

I sold my mantra and bought an SP10 and put an origin live RB250 on it, but needless to say it wasn’t as good, even with the same cartridge.

I’ve just bought an Origin Live Illustreous for it – even though I don’t really play vinyl and alway slag it off ! And I bought a spare Denon DL304 as a new one came up on ebay and they don’t make them anymore and they perform really well for the money.

But I would investigate that Rock. I seem to remember the Townshend guy did a double blind test with a big audience – maybe over the radio – comparing his deck to a CD player and they choose the record deck.

I should also mention who does modified Rega tonarms at good prices, as I knew the guy.

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/

and his record deck :

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/teres.html

and his Pye HF25 amps from the 1958 which sounded incredible driving my Spendor SP1 playing Count Basie and Ella Fitzgerald – will never forget that session.

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/pye1.html

And a SL 1200 as a home turntable? Complete waste of time? American audiophiles seem to love them and think they are the best thing side Donald Trump ….
What about a Linn Axis?

moofo these are simple devices as above, with little to go wrong apart from perishing of rubber in belts or some wear and tear. Generally safe tho.

Townsend who did the Rock, seemed a bit barmy, but his stuff had fans.

An external psu can make a difference. Rewiring tonearm too. I made a chassis for my TD160 also. Great fun.

rotate one of the springs slightly and that frequency and therefore the damping would change.

How does that work?

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you made sure that the cartridge is mounted absolutely correct? Even a very slight adjustment of the cartridge in the headshell has a profound impact on sound quality.

I would suggest printing a protractor from one of the free websites, and check the alignment. Currently I have a REGA Planet, REGA Planar 2, Technics SL1900, a NUMARK dj turntable and a home built deck. If I had to settle for just one deck, it would be a SL1210… The sound quality is excellent, and it is absolutely bomb proof.

I went through this a few years ago and after much deliberation and trawling of eBay (and the silly prices people want for old kit) I got so confunsed I just bought a new Rega!

Unless you want to spend more time fettling than listening! 🙂

I think I am with you Muffin Man …
I am more prone to plug and play …
Just discussing a pair of SL1210s at a very good price …

This is getting like a Gaggia classic and hi tech grindy thread, maybe like me you have a bit of the olde earwax problem that canny shift and the nurse says a month with the dribble down the chin before the washout

redmx … so a bit like Jones truss frames then?

The Linn Axis wa the competition for the Manticore Mantra.

A Rega 3 will be a lot less hassle and if you mount it well (on the wall maybe) you will be less likely to need suspension.

The springs aren’t perfectly cylindirical so rotating them puts the deck under different tensions.

Nice technics SP10 here :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Technics-SP-10-MK3-Turntable-W-SH-10B5-Obsidian-Plinth/153440664822?hash=item23b9c6bcf6:g:bs8AAOSwE9Bb8oLK

This is one of the ones my mate did :

He used to have people lug their Linns and similar down for comparison, who would then buy the Technics!

mines similar but with the origina live illustrious arm.

When I mentioned integrated in reference to the Rega Planar 3 – current model what I meant was that no one component was weak , so upgrades are not immediately contemplated , which saves brain energy worrying about it , a friend has Planar 6 which is where you end up if you upgrade everything on the 3 , he has I think one of the Audiomods tonearms on it now.
Its a slippery slope and an expensive setup is no guarantee of success as individual components
may not be compatible or setup in harmony .
I have a several in the loft , Heybrook, Thorens, Technics, a couple of others I sold ,all collected during the time they became cheap due to CD , actually connected and running is a Planar 3 – easy and reliable to run and as my ears age I am not so bothered about the sound more about picking up odd records now and then at Oxfam , just because I like the look of them and want to have a listen, and no browsing the internet is definitely not the same!

EDit : I found Audiomods arms and kits a few years ago – and do have a spare Rega arm that I would love to do some of the mods on , anybody with a Rega arm will find the website very interesting.