29 inches
Split chainstays or dropouts, to allow for belt drive.
Slotted dropouts for single speed.
Cable guides to support full length cable outers, or internally routed cables, to help reduce cable rub.
Forward facing seatpost slot, to reduce water ingress.
Larger seatpost diameter, to support wider range of dropper posts.
Two sets of bottle mounting bosses within the frame triangle.
Decent mud clearance on the chainstays.

Never mind mountain bikes, I’ve just seen that cross bike of yours Mr Shand – schweet! 😀

I’d rather have a 27.2 post (whoever said above that they are too flexy has either too much post showing or is a bit lardy) than a heavy rattly dropper that needs servicing every 5 mins or is constantly going back for warranty work, just get your arse back behind the saddle like everyone used to.

My reverb is none of those things, well, maybe it’s 200g more than a thompson, but it’s never rattled or needed a warrenty replacement or a service.

On the 2nd point I did used to use a QR, then I went to not bothering (took a while to re lear how to do stuff like jump/pump with the saddle up), then back to QR (which made life easier goig downhill), the to a reverb, which had all the benifits of a QR with the lack of faff of a bolt up collar.

And why would you want a custom steel pegasus if you already have a pegasus?

Selling direct instead of via dealers should get back some of the price differential compared to conventionally distributed models of course.
I’d hope £500 would be achievable for something mini production with “nice tubing”.

953

I’d rather have a 27.2 post (whoever said above that they are too flexy has either too much post showing or is a bit lardy) than a heavy rattly dropper that needs servicing every 5 mins or is constantly going back for warranty work, just get your arse back behind the saddle like everyone used to.

Bollocks – we are not living in the early 90s anymore.

Try living somewhere rocky rather than your mincey flatlands..

Manufactures have shown they do not want to (or cant) make 27.2 dropper posts with a decent drop, so frames have changed to suit

And why would you want a custom steel pegasus if you already have a pegasus?

that must be the silliest thing i’ve read here for a while (n+1 etc)

oh wait this beats it

Bollocks – we are not living in the early 90s anymore.

Try living somewhere rocky rather than your mincey flatlands..

another riding “god” (who confesses to not be able to ride with a normal seatpost and has bitten deeply into the latest “must have” hype driven by manufacturors) has spoken, i bow down to your tremendous talent 🙄

If i was in the market, which to be honest i am not, happy with my current bike and no way i can justify a new MTB on the usage the current one is getting, i would be wanting something around the 4lb mark, 27.2mm seatpost. steep angles, short wheel base. Base it on 650b wheels. cowl type drop outs, etc

Think Ritchey P21 brought up to date.

Seeing as we’re all having a go:

Rear caliper between the stays.
853.
Two bottle cages.
Crud Catcher mounts.
Forward facing seat tube slot.
Optional rack/proper mudguard mounts.
120 mm fork compatable. A nice rigid steel fork with curved blades as standard. Not sure if you can do curved blades with disc mounts, but that’s what I’d like!
Huge mud clearance.
Not fussed about seat/headtube size.
A hub gear ready version.
A 29er that fits shortarses, as an option.
How about lugs? I like lugs.
And please, please don’t paint it brown.

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard & rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.
Ta.

I’d prob go with 30.9mm if it rides well. I certainly wouldn’t sacrifice ride quality for people who want a dropper post.

the ability to have SS and gears on the same frame would suit more people.

44mm headtube.

Then nice colour scheme and metal headbadge and your sorted.

Not arsed where its made as long as they know what they are doing, (i’m not a welder racist)

I think £500-£600 is a fair price for all of the above.

might have been easier to say if the cotic soul was UK manufactured would you buy it??

I agree with Brant but hes on the money and it can be done in the UK.

Also consider if your trying to carve a niche in the framebuilding world will becoming a production guy devalue your brand.

Pricing and quality need to be up with DeKerf, Spot Brand, Independent Fabrocations. Pricing ideally cheaper but not by much.

29er, 2 bottle cages, some uk stuff like crud bosses, mud clearance, singlespeedability.

Paint- a lot better than Niner.

Some sort of optional gimmick like bent tubes (beach cruiser style etc). May be nice.

Headtube stay on trend.

BB standard 68 or 73.

Elevated chainstays!

brant – Member
Selling direct instead of via dealers should get back some of the price differential compared to conventionally distributed models of course.
I’d hope £500 would be achievable for something mini production with “nice tubing”.

IIRC – this was investigated a short while ago, by Lord Brant of the Shed….? I think it came about because
a. he was going to do it anyway
b. taking a bit of a ‘kicking’ on a ‘why make in the far east’ thread and, as a result, got a pointer to a potential UK source and figured he’d follow the lead anyways?
c.combination of the above
d. i’m dreaming all of this….

I did investigate, but I couldn’t make it work, unless, I suspect, I took on a frame builder in house and managed it ourselves.

Mr Shand does torch wielding himself. So he has a direct line to the customer if he sells direct that I think this can work for him at a reasonable price point.

Right Price £499

30.9 seat tube
68 deg head angle
73 deg seat angle
44mm head set
swoppable drop outs allowing maxle , QR and single speed
5- 6lb weight
ISCG tabs for 1×9/10
good solid powder coat finish
sizes 15″ , 17″ , 19 ” , 21″
head tube 5″
73mm BB
26″ wheels

thank-you, brant, for confirming it was not ‘d’ 🙂

Mr Shand does torch wielding himself.

Surely that has to serve to put the price up, if Mr S is looking a bespoke?

Smaller ‘production’ runs by a small team might help – again, I forget, but there was a video ‘walk-though’ of a USA titanium shop kicking around?
A small team (thinking TIG here, not brazing and filing) may also open the door to the ’boutique’ (one off) offering and faster delivery than current UK boutique suppliers?

Evidently, I know sweet fanny adams about all this, just would like to see a (small) element of manufacturing return to Blighty…. I’d be interested, at the right price….

Oh….. thinking out loud, again….
Saracen – Kili Flyer – brazed and all that but (not made in the UK?) currently appearing at huge price reductions – victims of brand snobbery and / or being too expensive when compared to the likes of The Soul? Worth bearing in mind….

Small teams require employing! Do it yourself and the overhead is lower and you’re earning for your time, not adding margin onto their time. I’m far too happy with my Cotic Soul to need a new frame but in an ideal world it would be like a Soul but with an 83mm BB, 30.9 seat tube, steeper seat tube, no front mech guides, ISCG tabs and no bottle mounts. But who’s going to buy that?!

Blimey what a large collection of stupid requests and blindly optimistic pricing

Although This is hardly a challenge is it, I’ve seen better fabrication from blind monkeys!

A Soul peg UK built but it would have to be up to the same build quality.

And having a couple of nice tubes and then a cheap cro mo back end a nice frame does not make!

another riding “god” (who confesses to not be able to ride with a normal seatpost and has bitten deeply into the latest “must have” hype driven by manufacturors) has spoken, i bow down to your tremendous talent

Or I could be making a wild opinion on what equipment somebody else other than yourself might need or not need. Or what might suit or be a damn good idea in somebody else local terrain and riding area…….

And for the record I don’t own one, but wish you could get a better selection of dropper posts in 27.2.

I’d be happy with a Dialled Alpine, but with a dropper compatible seat tube and a future proofed head tube. In the meantime I’ll ride the one I have.

i’ve got mine thanks

The doctor
Love it. No actual input just critical of others.
STW at it’s best.

Droppers are popular despite their flaws. Look passed the Willy waving and you will limit the market by not having a compatible seat tube. And manufacturers have given up trying to make them in 27.2 which is understandable.

Those willing to pay a UK premium will be limited- but maybe enough to sustain a limited run manufacturer. I own an Orange Alpine, a Dialled Alpine and my next motor bike will probably be a Triumph, not because they are British but because they are outstanding products that compete on equal terms in quality and price, the Union flag is a bonus (yes I know the Dialled is FE built).

Thanks for all the input so far, keep it coming. Just wanted to address a couple of points while I’m here:

Question: I’m thinking that a large part of the cost, and therefore the “UK premium”, is related to the manpower. That being the case, how much more would it cost to use titanium for which folk are already prepared to pay extra?

You’re right, the majority of cost for us is labour. In theory, using Ti wouldn’t necessarily increase the cost by a huge amount but there are other costs to consider. Finish, increased wear on tooling etc. Having said that, the thing that puts me off Ti is the unpredictable availability of quality material in the specs we need. I looked at this a couple of years ago and it may be better now than it was. For a small company like us, we’re always treading a fine line between being able to get decent pricing on quantities of material while still having a sensible cashflow outlook. Buying a years worth of Ti tubing just so we can be sure of availability doesn’t make sense for us.

I would like a pick’n’mix choice of frame sizes and geometry, wheel sizes, drop-outs, and options from bottle bosses, full-length cable routing etc, colour. 853 steel with stickers. Happy to wait a month or three after hitting buy but don’t want to see a batch on CRC.

I think the key would be some sort of “custom for a fixed price” or at leas a shopping list? I.e. the basic frame is the same price and the client can pick and chose ruin the geomtery as much as they like. Then ontop of that there’s a list of extras.

This is pretty much what we do with our production ‘cross and allroad frames.

There are obvious competitors here – why not look into setting up a uk carbon frames production line.

Basically, because that’s not what we do. Our facility at the moment is to produce steel frames. There would little crossover in producing CF frames. We’d also need to bring in outside skills. But the main reason is that you need to believe in what you do. I’m not a huge CF basher but it doesn’t float my boat.

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard, rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.

Like this?

Also consider if your trying to carve a niche in the framebuilding world will becoming a production guy devalue your brand.

I’m happy to be the production guy if it means I can stay in business!

My opinion based on riding an Orange P7 and a rock lobster is this

strong build to cope with moments of insanity

tapered or better still 44 mm headtube to allow ‘bargain’ forks to be sourced or forks currently owned to be fitted

one piece rear mech cable for british weather

iscg tabs for singlespeed or 1 x 9

Disc only with the ‘c’ clip mounts to avoid having to detach the caliper and thread the hose

Changeable dropout system to allow flexibility, perhaps investigate 12mm as an option to allow wheels to swap between other bikes?

down tube crud guard mounts (these are fantastic on my p7)

forward facing seat tube slots

no cables run on underside of down tube

as for seat tube diameters i feel you’d get more business looking to go 30.9 or more to cater for the new dropper seatpost.

That Stoater, Mr Shand looks a beaut, I’ve nothing more to add 😀

Actually…. I’ve a Dailled PA and love it, I think my ideal steel hardtail would have fillet brazing and be a tad lighter..

An Orange P7 with a 30.9 seat tube for me would be an ideal steel hard tail, I really liked mine , and it would have been perfect with a dropper post, I would still have it if I hadn’t lost my job and needed to pay the bills 😥

Those drop outs on the Stoater look great, are they the new Paragon Machine Works ones? How do they compare with the Black Cat style in adjustment length?

That Stoater is a lovely machine. Price is a little on the high side esp once you have added the drop out onto the cost.

something based around 100 – 120mm forks
Slackish head angle
Lowish BB
Short back end
ISCG tabs
31.6mm seat tube
About 5lbs in weight
44mm head tube

So it would be lightish, strongish and fastish up hill and down dales.

Basically just a cotic bfe with a different head tube, slightly slacker head angle, a lower BB and a touch lighter.

If you are going to add adjustable dropouts, use the DMR swapout system. I wouldnt buy a frame like a P7 cos they have about a lb’s worth of metal bolted to the dropouts just so some muppets can run them single speed! Plus they look awful.

shandcycles – Member

And a drop bar tourer, or proper mudguard, rack mounts on your crosser would be lovely.

Like this?

Yep, that looks perfect.

As soon I can convince Ms Spanner to go back on the streets I’ll be in touch. 🙂

davidtaylforth – Member
Basically just a cotic bfe with a different head tube, slightly slacker head angle, a lower BB and a touch lighter.

This (maybe with a nod to slightly longer forks – 130-150mm though, but that’s a personal thing).

Question then becomes what is it worth extra in financial/marketing terms for a UK designed/UK built HT versus a UK designed/Taiwan built HT?

For me, a BFe in the latter camp at £300 would make anything in the former camp that cost more than £500 too expensive unless it had another massive USP going for it.

slainte ❓ rob

Souldrummer – next Alpine will have XX44 Reynolds 631 head tube and dropper compatible seat tube.

Bellerophon – Prince Albert Classic 853?

custom uk made frames seems to be a growing market especially now there’s the Bristol bespoked show and there are now a lot of people who have probably done the full suspension thing and are willing to pay for something that is a bit special. A good uk example is enigma i think there steel frame is about £ 800

@ mike-at-dialledbikes – blimey that IS good news. Better start saving. If only all my wishes came true that easily!!!

I’d like to know what people would want from a UK built frame

29er, loadsa mud clearance, lively side of handling, comfy, as few gussets as possible, really hard wearing paint in an ace colour.

Do you even care where the frame is built and would you pay a premium for something built here in the UK?

Yes, that is one of the reasons I bought Orange before. Even having a company (such as On-One, Cotic, Sanderson, Dialled etc) that design and spec here counts for something.

What kind cost they’d expect to pay?

Cheap steel HT £200 to Cotic @£500, so £600-800 mebbe(assuming I had the money…). But I am a skinflint…!

Shame that “Stoater” wouldn’t take a suspension fork…..

Aye