I’d like to pick the collective brains of STW on something which I don’t know much about

On another forum, I purchased something from a well-known forum member, who is a trader.

They advertise the parts through their own website, and have their banner advertising such plastered all over the forum. Members regularly praise this person for their good business…

I discover the part I ordered was wrong (wrong information given to me, which I based the purchase on..), and asked to return the product – unused, still in packaging (etc etc).

‘Seller’ tells me to flog it on to someone else, as the deal was ‘private’ – despite it being his business.

Foolishly (perhaps) I paid him via PPG, which he claims instantly voids an Distance Selling Regs (Inform the seller in writing of intention to return the product within 7 working days).

He’s going to ask his suppliers if they will accept the returned parts, and if they do – I have to pay the shipping bill to them too…

Where do I stand? Have I just lost out on £120 (what it cost me) ? Or do I have a leg to stand on?

I don’t really want to resort to putting this in writing on the [very busy] forum…. sort of hoping I can avoid that…

Cheers 🙂

I don’t really want to resort to putting this in writing on the [very busty] forum

8)

…anyway. Name and shame on the busty forum.

Quickly had to edit that!!

So a 3rd party gave you the info?

Seems to me he can’t say he’s not a trader after the event, it’s BS. Under DSR you can return for any reason in 7 days BTW.

Otherwise I don’t think you have any rights, but you can publicise what’s happened, or threaten to.

The method of payment has got nothing to do with your rights under DSR.

Quickly had to edit that!!

Tssk! There are rules to this editing malarkey, admitting the edit after the event definitely isn’t one. 🙁 😉

To add insult to injury, the prices on the website are the same as he advertised via PM on the forum.

So he can hardly say he’s doing a cheaper deal for members!

quote some sale of goods act stuff at him and state what you want him to do and by when (reasonable timescale). Also say if he doesn’t resolve, your next action will be to issue small claims court proceedings. Usually gets the job done

Name and shame.

No reason the rest of us should have to suffer the same problem.

If the seller was the one who misadvised you in response to a clear question on your part, I’d get on with the naming & shaming

As to private sale etc – if you paypalled a business account I guess you’re a business sale but if you gifted it straight to an individual then less so. Misrepresentation is still a valid complaint in a private sale though, I think (small claims ?)

I suppose if you were feeling really vindictive you might shop him to the taxman since his “deal for members” appears to involve pocketing the VAT

scaredypants – I was thinking about the taxman too. In regards to the 3rd party info, it was a car garage who advised me – about 8 months ago.

piedi di formaggio – small courts sounds interesting (or at least the threat of small claims).

druidh – I won’t name & shame just yet.

Trading standards and small claims court.

Oh and name and shame.

Thanks for the info so far everybody, much appreciated.

I’ll give Trading Standards a bell in the morning, and ask for their advice.

At least I have already written the request for returns to the seller – within 7 business days.

Small update on this…

The seller has agreed to accept the return of the goods – BUT with a re-stocking fee of 35% – which I was not told about (in writing or verbally) by the seller at time of purchase.

Quite simply “here is the price, here’s my email for PayPal”

According to the OFT’s guide to Distance Selling Regs (page 10) http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf )

Only if it is covered in the contract and the written information
can you require the consumer to pay for the cost of returning
the ordered goods. If the consumer then fails to return the
goods, or sends them at your expense, you can charge them
the direct cost to you of the return, even if you have already
refunded the consumer’s money. You are not allowed to
make any further charges, such as a restocking charge or an
administration charge.

Pointing me in the direction of their Returns policy after a sales contract has been agreed (he offered, I accepted and paid) would fall foul of the above?

Here is another important part of the T and Cs on his website :

The use of this website is subject to the following terms of use

I didn’t use his website (which contains a shopping cart system) to purchase anything? So surely those T and C’s are nothing to do with me (especially if I was not told of them in writing at time of purchase?)

The seller has agreed to accept the return of the goods – BUT with a re-stocking fee of 35% – which I was not told about (in writing or verbally) by the seller at time of purchase.

Tell him to stick it.
(is it spiky with sharp edges?)

He’s wriggling, you’re well within your rights, and he knows it. Keep going as you are until he gives you a full refund – sounds like he will shortly.

I think it’s probably fair for you to have to cover return postage, but that’s it. Oh, and obviously use a secure / signed for delivery.

Bombers then wee in his shoes

Assuming he’s a trader,

He cannot waive statutory rights. That’s what statutory means. He can stick his restocking fee up his ‘arris.

He’s only got any sort of leg to stand on if it’s a private sale rather than trade. And if he’s got banner ads plastered everywhere and an online ‘shop’ then I’d argue that he’s pretty definitely a trader.

I’d suggest an email along the lines of “no, you’ll pay me back in full, including postage, or I’ll see you in court.”

Chancing bastid.

If you’re going by the DSRs they specifically prohibit the charging of ‘restocking fees’ and other such penalties for returning goods. Para 3.55 of the full version at :- http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

I think it’s probably fair for you to have to cover return postage, but that’s it.

Nope, under DSR, that’s the seller’s responsibility unless agreed otherwise prior to the sale.

Under normal circumstances I might consider offering, but he’s being an arse so nuts to him. Don’t budge an inch.

name and shame, name and shame, name and shame!

Misinformed/ill described purchase = seller pays return costs. Real simple.

Tell him to get it refunded asap.

If he is ‘selling privately’ brand new products then you need to call the tax man who will be quite keen to chat.

And possibly call who ever is the distributor for the parts

tax man, tax man, tax man!

The threat of the tax man might well be enough to persuade him to change his mind.

Then dob him in anyway.

dob him in, dob him in, dob him in!

Cougar – Member

I think it’s probably fair for you to have to cover return postage, but that’s it.

Nope, under DSR

Returning under DSR means there’s no fault – so there’s no right to postage paid for the buyer.

In any event, the OP said earlier that the mistake was his, on the advice of a 3rd party, so he can only return under DSR – no fault on the part of the seller.

RE-stocking fee is a crock ,as above.

From the DSR
How many of these has he failed to do?

Information required prior to the conclusion of the contract7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (4), in good time prior to the conclusion of the contract the supplier shall—
(a)provide to the consumer the following information—
(i)the identity of the supplier and, where the contract requires payment in advance, the supplier’s address;
(ii)a description of the main characteristics of the goods or services;
(iii)the price of the goods or services including all taxes;
(iv)delivery costs where appropriate;
(v)the arrangements for payment, delivery or performance;
(vi)the existence of a right of cancellation except in the cases referred to in regulation 13;
(vii)the cost of using the means of distance communication where it is calculated other than at the basic rate;
(viii)the period for which the offer or the price remains valid; and
(ix)where appropriate, the minimum duration of the contract, in the case of contracts for the supply of goods or services to be performed permanently or recurrently;

the OP said earlier that the mistake was his, on the advice of a 3rd party,

Ah, I read it as though the advice was provided by the seller.

@Cougar – advice was provided to me months ago by a 3rd party. Thankfully, the DSR doesn’t care about a reason for returning products – I could have ordered 3 pairs, or been given one as a present, etc.

Here’s a copy of my latest message sent to him – I’ve stated the ‘facts’ in the content.

Initially I wanted an exchange, but decided to return the goods instead. There is nothing wrong in that.

I would certainly be interested to hear what your friend has to say, in particular the part regarding me being informed in writing (prior to me paying) about your business terms and conditions. I can see no link to your web page in your original PM, or forum signature? I never actually visited your website prior to this issue.

By asking me to read the Terms and Conditions on your business website is an admission you were trading as a business, not privately. As a result of this admission, I’d like to return the goods in line with the Distance Selling Regulations, which includes the buyer being made aware of the Terms and Conditions AT TIME OF PURCHASE. Page 10 of this document – http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

As I did not use YOUR website to purchase anything, can you please show me where (in our communication) you stated your business Terms and Conditions before I paid anything?

To summarise, the following are considered TRUE, although I am happy to be corrected. (please show this to your solicitor friend for clarity).

1. You sold the goods to me as a business, not a private trader (by asking me to read the Terms and Conditions on your business website TTSpares.com)

2. I informed you in writing within 7 working days of my intention to return the goods (unused, still in original packaging). According to Distance Selling Regulations, this known as the cooling-off period.

3. I did not purchase anything through the use of YOUR website (shopping cart system), therefore the Terms and Conditions on your website clearly stating “The use of this website is subject to the following terms of use” has NOTHING to do with our sales contract (the offer was made via PM on this website TTForum.co.uk, and I paid through a 3rd party – PayPal.com). You could have 3 different business websites, with 3 different terms and conditions of sale – but they only apply (unless otherwise stated) when purchasing through each individual website.

4. At no point in writing, PRIOR to me paying for the goods, did you inform me of any business Terms and Conditions. No link in your PM signature to your business website Terms and Conditions. No note saying “Please have a read of these terms and conditions before you send me the money”. According to Distance Selling Regulations, the trader is not permitted “to make further changes, such as restocking fee or administration charge”. Informing me several days AFTER the purchase is a change in our contract. The Distance Selling Regulations also clearly state “If you do not include these details in the required written information then you cannot charge anything.”

According to my statutory rights as a consumer, I am covered by the Distance Selling Regulations, which permits me to return the unused goods to you (I made the mistake of understanding that the seller has to pay for the return goods – I accept I will have to, which I am happy to do.) and issued a full refund.

Regards,
Ali

Ah-ha; If I ever give up teaching and start cutting hair,and buy a car that suits my new career choice, I promise I will never buy car parts from them. 😀

I can feel the sympathy for the OP slipping away already……

Seems reasonable to me.

Sounds like he needs a bit of windmill arms followed by some bombers

Nothing wrong with sticking to my rights!

If he neglected to include the T and Cs of business in all communication leading up to the point of contract (paying for the parts), then it’s not my fault is it!?

Petty, perhaps, but it’s the difference between paying a 35% restocking fee (and return carriage from his, to his suppliers) – or receiving a full refund.

Dammit OP, you drive an Audi TT? And you expect help and sympathy from here? Sorry, I was with you til I realised you’re a TT man. Unless you’re a TT gal, in which case I fully support you.

Er…. my wife chose the car, if that helps? 😆

xiphon – Member
Er…. my wife chose the car, if that helps?

Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post

Yes, cos you are too busy running a Essex hair salon 😀

It’s not an MX5…

Foolishly (perhaps) I paid him via PPG

Why oh why do people do this?