Them electric car things

It seems to me that electric cars won’t take off for as long as they need to be plugged into a charging point for anything more than 10 mins at a time.

Does anyone know if companies are looking into a system where you can drop in a pre-charged battery unit which you hire? i.e. pay, say, £500 one off deposit and then hand over your empty battery for a fully charged one at petrol (power) stations for £50 a go?

Lots of companies looking at Range Enhancing solutions. Basically a battery car with an engine for when the battery runs out or needs help. Jag demoed an interesting one with jet engine range enhancment

its not the charging that puts me off, its the current cost.

I fill up once or twice a week. My car sits at home for 12-14 hours, gets driven for 45 mins and then sits at work for 8 hours, then gets driven for another 45 mins. Plenty of opportunity to charge…

the current cost

Isn’t it the ampage cost?

It’s the wattage cost
This 2h version might be good! Probably as aero as a car can get

2h
This plug-in electric hybrid will give you similar energy efficiency benefit of the 2e, but with the opportunity to travel a distance of up to 350 miles. It can travel over 50 miles on electricity alone or engage its low emissions gasoline generator to achieve its full range.

Plenty of opportunity to charge…

But what about driving long distance and arranging to be at a place at a certain time? You’re 30 miles short and need to recharge but it’s going to take 3 hours or something. Or driving across Europe which will mean you have to stop overnight when you’d rather just keep going?

This remains the Achilles heel of electric cars – energy density. You simply cannot get enough energy in batteries to make it useful for anything but short urban journeys. Until battery tech improves by a huge amount they will only ever be a marginal part of the transport network

What happens when it goes dark? The same battery that runs the car will power the lights? And when it’s cold, what gives out heat on your tootsies?

I think all these things are great in California and in the Green Utopia, but there’s a practicality gap thats still too wide.

Plenty of opportunity to charge…

But what about driving long distance and arranging to be at a place at a certain time? You’re 30 miles short and need to recharge but it’s going to take 3 hours or something. Or driving across Europe which will mean you have to stop overnight when you’d rather just keep going?

IMO electric cars will need to be part of a rethink or readjustment of the wider role of private transport, and how people look at their cars. Sure journeys like the above might be a PITA, but as jam bo points out most journeys, for most people, most of the time are actually very well suited to electric cars. So maybe more of a ‘horses for courses’ approach to our cars is needed, although how this would work in practice I don’t know!

Check out Better Place for people pushing for a battery-swapping rather than recharging approach.

What happens when it goes dark? The same battery that runs the car will power the lights? And when it’s cold, what gives out heat on your tootsies?

I think all these things are great in California and in the Green Utopia, but there’s a practicality gap thats still too wide.

Do you think that the lengthy testing and proving processes for cars only involves replicating nice sunny days in California?

Won’t fuel cells replace batteries ?

Many house holds have two cars. In most of those house holds only one of those cars goes on long journeys. As long as the rang is around 100 – 150 odd miles most people will do less than that everyday and overnight charging is not a problem. The second I.C is the shared for long journeys. After all if you are commuter a 150 mile range gives you more than enough to do a a 60 mile one way commute with some margin of detour with only charging available at home, or it give you enough range to visit friends and family well over 100 miles away when staying over night.

I don’t think the shortish range is as much as a problem as people make out when you look at most peoples actual driving habits. Hire / streetcar type setups cars for longer journeys if it’s your only car is another easy solution.

I’m not saying it would work for everyone but they could easily work for many households as a second car and many others as a primary car but people have the fixed habit that they need a instant recharge and 400 odd mile range, even though most people only use this once or twice a year and for many families when they do they are only using one of their two cars.

Do you buy a car based on what you use your car for 99% of the time or the capacity for that 1% of the time. I drive a small car because 99% of the time it’s all I need. I hire I van for that 1% when I need a van.

As I said not for everyone but a pluperfect reasonable solution for many many people when you actually look at their driving.

Do you buy a car based on what you use your car for 99% of the time or the capacity for that 1% of the time. I drive a small car because 99% of the time it’s all I need. I hire I van for that 1% when I need a van.

Good to hear! Unfortuately a lot of people have it the other way round, and think they ‘need’ a 4×4 etc. all the time, for that 1% of the time when it may actually be neccesary.

I haven’t had a car for 5 years, I rent one maybe 8 times a year and an electric car would be aweome for local, cheap motoring. For the longer journeys perhaps I would rent something with an engine.

The main problem is car makers aiming too high, with heavy cars and trying to make vehiclles which will still do 0..60 in ten seconds and go 90MPH.

I’d be happy taking 30 seconds to accelerate, and 50..60 flat out. You could do that with 1/10th the power built into many electric cars today. That allows really big range between charges.

There is nothing to stop it happening now.

IMO electric cars will need to be part of a rethink or readjustment of the wider role of private transport, and how people look at their cars. Sure journeys like the above might be a PITA, but as jam bo points out most journeys, for most people, most of the time are actually very well suited to electric cars. So maybe more of a ‘horses for courses’ approach to our cars is needed, although how this would work in practice I don’t know!

Check out Better Place for people pushing for a battery-swapping rather than recharging approach.

Exactly the driving across Europe situation is very rare for most people and even if it was an annual event could be easily worked around.

The obvious solution would be to implement a standardized battery and interface, so instead of having to use charging points, drivers of electric cars can simply swap a battery and continue on their journey.

The main problem is car makers aiming too high, with heavy cars and trying to make vehiclles which will still do 0..60 in ten seconds and go 90MPH.

I’d be happy taking 30 seconds to accelerate, and 50..60 flat out. You could do that with 1/10th the power built into many electric cars today. That allows really big range between charges.

There is nothing to stop it happening now.

I think it’s more to do with consumers demanding cars like that than manufacturers insisiting on making them- even if they did there are plenty of people who’d happily make them if anyone would actually buy them. G-Whiz anyone?

EDIT Jeremy Clarkson and his yes-men have alot to answer for in this respect 😉

Do you think that the lengthy testing and proving processes for cars only involves replicating nice sunny days in California?

Yes.

Fifth Gear did a piece about a long journey by electric car, and the range of the thing was killed by having the lights on during the night-time stint. How do you do a reasonable length journey in the dark, with the heater and lights on which is from the same battery?

And instead of sneering, let’s have an answer.

Electric cars are just moving the problem to somewhere else and pretending you’re saving the planet. Hydrogen power like the Honda Clarity is a more realistic propostion; let’s have more of that.

People who have 2 cars but where one is an urban run around will be able to get by charging at the supermarket or at home. Our second car has a maximum range of 14 miles from home and is used 2 or 3 times a week so electric would be fine for us.

I still wonder how the charging infrastructure will be provided to places like london where all the parking is on the street and you are not guaranteed a space outside your own house..?

This time of the year you pretty much need lights 16 hours out of 24, which kills it stone dead – IMO – in this part of the globe

Hybrid is the only way really at the moment

Electric cars are just moving the problem to somewhere else and pretending you’re saving the planet. Hydrogen power like the Honda Clarity is a more realistic propostion; let’s have more of that.

But isn’t hydrogen also moving the problem along, because the energy you’d be using to charge your battery is instead going into producing the hydrogen?

The reality is that unless you walk, use an animal or human powered vehicle every solution is just moving the problem around. Surely though there are benefits to energy being produced in a minimum number of generators, well for cleaning up emissions and efficiency anyway.

The idea of the drop in/exchange battery is a good one but I think you are thinking of a single car battery as internal combustion engine cars have now. My understanding of the batteries in current electric cars is that there are batteries of batteries. Not really viable for exchanges.

Hybrids are surely the current “best” solution until fuel cells and hydrogen fuel stations become efficient and mainstream.

As for electric cars being the ideal solution for people who drive up to an hour each way to work and for the other 22 hours of a working week the car sits aching to be plugged in, yes they are. Why won’t people go for them. For the same reason that people but Range Rovers/BMW X5/Mercedes Benz – because car ownership is more about prestige and self image than fitness for purpose. Until human beings behaviour changes significantly this problem isn’t going to go away.

Fifth Gear did a piece about a long journey by electric car, and the range of the thing was killed by having the lights on during the night-time stint. How do you do a reasonable length journey in the dark, with the heater and lights on which is from the same battery?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/lights-would-you-want-one-like-this

🙂

We are expecting to have Electric Mercedes Vito sometime late 2011 to early 2012. Its already being trialed in Europe so we will have to wait and see.

Thing is they are talking £60/70/80K for these things in basic form so you will no longer be buying your vehicles in the traditional way. You will be leasing them. You sit there and work out you entire running costs including fuel and you get a figure over the next 4yrs. Add a bit of interest, a bit of profit, a bit of a resale value and divide by 48. There is your monthly cost. Thats the future of buying/running your car/van.

The batteries will be leased to. TBH i suspect the batteries will be worth more than the car so the idea of swapping batteries at the garage wont stack for a very long time yet. You will have a lease and included in the lease will be a guarentee/warranty for the batteries. Who would pay £80k for a vehicle that 70% of the residual value relied on electrical batteries?

Personally i thinks its all claptrap. This country relied on tax from fags. Its lost a lot of that. This country relys on tax on fuel. Are you seriously telling me that if electrical cars became a viable alternative to petrol/diesel the country could afford to write of that tax? No way, they will just tax electricity or the electricity outlets. I remember LPG being the big thing. Hell the govenment paid for the entire conversion for a while to encourage us. Then when it started to show slight signs of popularity they did away with the grants for conversion and started to raise the tax. Not to the point where it was more expensive, but to the borderline where it just wasnt worth the hastle of extra downtime (Who is gonna fix these alternative fuel vehicles? Your local BSG?) the lack of parts etc etc.

All nice ideas but i am yet to see a viable alternative fuel source and i dont think it will happen untill all governments agree, not just the UK

Most of the poeple I know drive less than 8 miles on each single journey. apart from the fact that electric vehicles are quite obviously not zero emissions vehilces they’d make a lot of sense in London.

My missus drives 1 mile to work. I suggested an electric car, but no, she insists on taking our Volvo S80 which is much too big for a 1 person commute.

Still it’s not as bad as when we lived in Oz when she used to drive our V8 car a similar distance.

The big problem with electric is it is going to have to shake off the G-Wiz weirdo image.

The big problem for electricity is that the government will balance the tax out with petrol or diesel. What they lose from those they will recoup from electric vehicles. Simple.

The big problem with electric is it is going to have to shake off the G-Wiz weirdo image.

This should help.

don’t they have an alternator?

ScottChegg – Member
Do you think that the lengthy testing and proving processes for cars only involves replicating nice sunny days in California?
Yes.

Fifth Gear did a piece about a long journey by electric car, and the range of the thing was killed by having the lights on during the night-time stint. How do you do a reasonable length journey in the dark, with the heater and lights on which is from the same battery?

And instead of sneering, let’s have an answer.

Electric cars are just moving the problem to somewhere else and pretending you’re saving the planet. Hydrogen power like the Honda Clarity is a more realistic propostion; let’s have more of that.

To be honest having large lumps of metal to move individuals around on largely short journey is never a particularly clever idea no matter what form of propulsion.

In addition to charging points (motorway services etc), is the idea that the owner charges them at home?

If so, I don’t see how that’s going to work for households without a private driveway.

Repeated from the mini thread, why bother having two threads that are basically the same….

IMO this is the first step, I really don’t think electric cars are the future but we need to start thinking about an alternative to petrol/diesel.
These things will be very good test beds for refining how to build an electric “powered” vehicle.
The future in my eyes is hydrogen fuel cells, we already have a pretty damn good distribution network set up for transporting explosive liquid around and all it will really take for BP etc to start stocking it at foreclourts is a small push from vehicle manufacturers and lack of profit in petrol/diesel. Can anyone see a lack of profit in petrol/diesel occurring anytime soon? I honestly can!

I live in south Lincolnshire.
My other half lives in Birmingham.
For me to ride there takes just under 5 hours.
For me to drive there in a G-wizz would take 13 hours as I would need a recharge somewhere near Leicester.

What is the point of the G-Wizz? It does 40 miles between charges and barely does 30mph. It has no discernable boot and takes forever too charge. Every journey that is possible in such a contraption would be better on a bike. Anyone got a crash-test video of G-wizz 😀 ?

I agree with Monkey, hydrogen is the future. Instant refills and zero emissions. However, we need electricity to make it from water and at the moment that mostly comes from coal and gas.
Oddly enough, no-one refers to the G-wizz and coal-powered…

hydrogen is very difficult to store and transport. its not the answer.

Found one

But isn’t hydrogen also moving the problem along, because the energy you’d be using to charge your battery is instead going into producing the hydrogen?

Yes, but it could be generated from renewables, and as already mentioned there is already a distribution network to transport these types of fuels.

As far as I’m aware, the environmental impact of building a fuel cell is far less than that of creating batteries to sit in a car.

I once read about a project that was put on the board based around Hunterston. They’ve built a number of turbines at West Kilbride, and that part of the plan was to build a hydrogen plant at the nearby powerstation site. In low demand, the turbines were to be used to create and store the hydrogen, then at peak demands the stored fuel used to create additional power back into to the grid.

whats to stop that creation to be used for generating hydrogen fuel for vehicle use.

hydrogen is the future imho. batteries just a stop gap

Yes and no. Different forms of transport for different people for different journeys. AS a society we have become such a car culture that we expect one type of transport to for fill all of out transportation needs, except for really long distance where we fly. The best move forward is for people to get accustomed to use different forms of transport more for different journeys and in fact many journeys to become multi modal.

Even when we consider cars we do not all have the dame needs and we should not expect all cars tobe able to do all jobs. One person may need to drive for 5 + hours regularly and for them maybe a fuel cell car but many, infact most people don’t. An electric car will cover 99% of their needs and a hire car for the occasional journey over 100 miles or 150 miles depending on the range. Electric cars could easily cover most peoples car needs most of the time and if it’s a second car in a house hold very few would not be satisfied by an electric car.

Creating hydrogen off of wind power is a good idea to smooth supply and demand but doing it to power all car would be wasteful. Run the cars that can be run from electricity directly rather than loose the energy via conversion.

Even hydrogen is not the answer you can not have more and more people travelling greater and greater distances. Especially in the inefficient means such as a car.

whats to stop that creation to be used for generating hydrogen fuel for vehicle use.

Transportation and storage issues – these are serious and difficult to overcome. It just escapes from normal containers and pipes

Urgh this thread should be merged with ‘tother one!

My missus drives 1 mile to work. I suggested an electric car, but no, she insists on taking our Volvo S80 which is much too big for a 1 person commute.

Seriously? seriously? what does she do? does it involve carrying 20kg of something cos if not thats terrible.