The Solar Thread

The first time anyone from the company we used visited was when they turned up for the install, they didn’t even ask for photos. I was a bit doubtful they could actually fit on the number of panels they said, but they managed it…

These days I don’t think you’ve got much choice but to go for the first company that responds, you could be waiting years trying to get more quotes, by which time prices will have risen to higher than whatever that first quote was anyway.

In England wind turbines are allowed as permitted development

while this is true – i suggest that you read the rules around the permitted development.

you will find you require a large plot of land as the bottom of the turbine has to be X from the ground – the center of the turbine has to be X from the ground and the whole thing has to be +5m(iirc) – but its for sure X meters from a from any boundary if it were to fall over.

I’d be staying clear of turbines after this happened locally to me.

It’s been fixed now 18 months later but not started generating as yet from what I can tell.

Broken Turbine

We are thinking pretty seriously about getting Solar. There’s a local company that gets decent reviews and doesn’t seem to have a massive waiting list. What do those ITK think of their guide price for one of their systems?

£9295

5KW PV Panels

Expert Installation

Monitoring Software

Certified & Handover Pack

Lipo Battery Storage

@MrSparkle. How much battery storage?

I thought when I lifted it off their site that it was a bit vague. I’ll see if I can find some more info.

If there is a decent amount of battery storage then its a good deal.

I have a question about battery storage.
A lot of people on here seem to be jumping on it as part of a new installation but do you actually know how much it’s going to save you?
The reason I’m asking is that I have two houses both with PV that’s been installed for about 10 years – love it!
In that time I’ve gathered a lot of data from both systems and I know that I’m going to get the following average daily generation:
October: 5-6kWh
November: 3-4kWh
December: 2-3kWh
January: 2-3kWh
February: 4-5kWh

This data is from a pure S facing unobstructed 3kWp installation – so add maybe 25% for a 4kWp array. My other house has 4kWp but facing E/W and does worse during these months.

So, given the pretty low production during these months I’m struggling to see how, after the house has taken its base load plus anything else that’s running, you can put more than a couple of kWh into the battery for use after dark.
ATM it just doesn’t seem to make sense – unless you have a much bigger array – is it worth it?
Please educate me in where I’m going wrong!!

(At my place with the E/W array I have a lot of space and am looking at buying some used panels and building a south facing ground mounted array to boost the winter production.)

my data for baseload shows a 35ish% use of generated power at any given time – despite a concerted effort to use timers etc.

Im looking at the battery like a capacitor to smooth that out rather than believing I’m going to be going off grid as per some of the lunatics out there.

exporting at current SEG is a waste of paper.

I’ve just been reading this:

The other advantage of battery storage is that you can charge from the grid on a cheaper overnight tariff.
If you can remember the old economy 7 tariff then the newer tariffs are similar albeit with less hours normally.

Octopus energy is currently offering overnight rates between 12:30am and 4.30am for less than 8 pence per kWh!
Batteries can be programmed using the inverter software to charge during this period thus saving more money, this is especially useful in winter when generation is significantly less through the day and early mornings. Waking up to a 50% charged battery could be just the boost you need to see you through your morning routine before the sun comes around and wakes up your Solar Panels.

The other advantage of battery storage is that you can charge from the grid on a cheaper overnight tariff.

Yep, I absolutely get that, and it’s an interesting thought….. but how long are they going to keep offering that? There’s no guarantee they will given that the power generating rule book has been thrown out of the window!

Good point.

This (from The Times) suggests that they will be keeping lower tariffs at non-peak times for the foreseeable:

The National Grid is currently consulting on an initiative that will pay customers to use energy at off-peak times this winter.

It’s based on a trial with Octopus Energy earlier this year. The scheme offered discounts to 100,000 households who reduced their energy consumption during two-hour windows, such as 9am to 11am and 4.30pm to 6.30pm. The aim was to rebalance demand at the grid.

The trial took place in February and March. Those who cut back received credit or had the option to receive money straight back into their bank accounts.

Octopus said consumers on average saved 23p per each two-hour trial window, but some participants saved up to £4.35.

If rolled out nationwide, households would have the option to save money by using energy-draining devices such as electric car chargers when demand is low.

The National Grid Electricity System Operator is understood to be working on an announcement for the plan which could be in place by October.

Those with smart meters could get up to £6 per kilowatt hour (kWh) saved at a time when bills will be sky-high.

One kWh is enough energy to power a dishwasher for less than an hour, or use an electric shower for six minutes. A tumble dryer uses roughly 4.5 kWh per cycle, according to estimates.

@uponthedowns

If there is a decent amount of battery storage then its a good deal.

Battery storage is available in a selection of sizes from various manufacturers and below is a few examples:

Pylontech 2.4kWh / 3.5kWh / 4.8kWh
Uhome 2.4kWh
Growatt 3.3kWh / 6.5kWh
Greenlink 3.2kWh

You’re right that it may be hard make full use of the battery in the winter, but winter isn’t really a worthwhile time for solar in the UK. The real problem for me is in summer, when the battery is going to be full in a few hours and the rest of your output will be exported.

Whether to spend money on more panels, rather than a battery, is an interesting question. If export rates go up in parallel to grid supply rates, exporting becomes more cost effective. On the other hand, if load-dependent grid charges become more widespread, a battery that you can use to shift off the peak (which is valid even in winter) become more viable.

Whether to spend money on more panels, rather than a battery, is an interesting question. If export rates go up in parallel to grid supply rates, exporting becomes more cost effective. On the other hand, if load-dependent grid charges become more widespread, a battery that you can use to shift off the peak (which is valid even in winter) become more viable.

or hedge your bets and go for a bit of both ?

The real problem for me is in summer, when the battery is going to be full in a few hours and the rest of your output will be exported.

Yes indeed if you have nothing to mop up the excess a lot will be exported so at least make sure your battery is sized to cover your evening and early morning needs, consider a solar diverter for hot water and if you have an EV try to have it plugged in during the day. This June before my Powerwall was installed and due to building work I couldn’t have my EV plugged into the charger during the day, I exported 324 kWh, half the power my array generated, and imported probably the same again. If my Powerwall had been installed and the EV had been plugged in I would have exported nothing and would have had between 500-1000 miles of free motoring and wouldn’t have spent £97 on that imported power.

Having said that I’m seeing that the battery is having a good effect in the “shoulder” months like now where we’re past peak solar. The solar generation is now equal to domestic use and the battery is enabling me to be off grid for the last couple of weeks. I think even a small battery could be worthwhile to make maximum use of solar during the day by acting as a buffer/accumulator. For example if you have the washer and drier on using say 2.5 kW and your array is generating 3kW then without a battery you are essentially losing the excess to the grid. Say a cloud moves across the sun and the array output drops to 1.0 kW then you start drawing 1.5 kW from the grid. Having a small battery would prevent the need for grid power during a sunny period day like that.

how effective is using an induction heater in a hot water tank at burning off excess energy vs using a battery? It seems like its a much cheaper option to start with (if you have a hot water tank)?

Energy required to heat 250 litres of water from 20°C to 60°C is 11.63 kWh so heating water would be a pretty good sink for excess solar. In comparison a Tesla Powerwall holds 12.5kWh.

ta. I presume there’s gear so that you can trigger the induction loop only when there’s excess electricity being generated (so I’m not burning grid electricity on a cloudy day)? What is that sort of thing called so I can google-fu it

The real problem for me is in summer, when the battery is going to be full in a few hours

….. and households generally need the least amount of power!

how effective is using an induction heater in a hot water tank at burning off excess energy vs using a battery?

You’re not ‘burning it off’ – your’re using it productively!
Anyway, pretty damn good – you can think of the water tank as a battery in some respects.

Our holiday place is all electric and our 3kWp array basically will provide all our hot water for 3-4 of us every day from May- Sept (just looked and the 210L tank is currently 59.7c).
If you have a tank then a diverter is the very first thing you should install.

Once the tank is up to max temperature the diverter (Immersun) sends power to a standalone heater that’s only connected to the diverter and not to the ring main. This caused an issue during the first lockdown as I couldn’t go the the house to switch this heater off and the internal temperature was well over 30c!!

If export rates go up in parallel to grid supply rates, exporting becomes more cost effective.

Ha, some chance! I get 4.5p/kWh deemed as export – that said I’m getting over 60p/kWh I generate regardless of whether it’s exported or used internally!

solar immersion diverter

Iboost is a popular one for those that like programable gadgets
Solic is a much cheaper more basic unit .

– i use a solic to feed two Oil filled radiators to use up would be exported energy in winter.

The real problem for me is in summer, when the battery is going to be full in a few hours

….. and households generally need the least amount of power!

When I self build I am going to properly investigate a seasonal thermal store, under or in the house, with solar charging and heat pump extraction.

Such as this (Scottish?) product:

Central Bank Mini thermal battery

Edit: https://www.jtmplumbing.co.uk/central-heating-controls-valves-c436/sunamp-batteries-c1216/thermino-epv-c1220/sunamp-thermino-epv-batteries-solar-pv-please-read-description-p29130/s47888

When I self build I am going to properly investigate a seasonal thermal store, under or in the house, with solar charging and heat pump extraction.

Such as this (Scottish?) product:

isn’t that just intended to store energy for a ~24 hours (like a hot water tank), rather than seasonally? I can’t see it staying warm for more than a week

isn’t that just intended to store energy for a ~24 hours (like a hot water tank), rather than seasonally? I can’t see it staying warm for more than a week

Scaled up it would be great tech.

On that scale it seems somewhat pointless over having hot water tank. A few folk on a Facebook group I’m in have them and they are pretty slow at releasing heat back to water. – think poor combi style

Someone on here works for Sunamps competitors and was rather scathing 😂

They did come up during my research for my uni project but as you say it’s a rather low grade heat that needs proper optimisation, it’s definitely not a fit and forget product. There have been some trials, East Lothian housing association and somewhere in Northern England. The latter had terrible results but that seemed unsurprising as they were just flung into ancient housing stock with no other work done and largely reluctant participants. A bit like folk who mean that heat pumps don’t work because they won’t heat a radiator to scalding point.

They’re actually a good idea but as always it’s down to the execution.

that said I’m getting over 60p/kWh I generate regardless of whether it’s exported or used internally!

This is one of the reasons the energy market is stuffed. Feed-in tariffs should be scrapped now and the money saved used to fund energy for people who can’t afford it.

Interesting about sunamp.

There’s a good few self build versions, using big (3m3) sand or water seasonal storage….hmmm

Feed-in tariffs should be scrapped now and the money saved used to fund energy for people who can’t afford it.

New FITs have been scrapped now, and were scaled back a lot before then. In the grand scheme of things there aren’t that many people getting FIT at that level, the systems are small and those systems will either finish their FIT period or become ineligible through upgrades or decommissioning at some point. They probably paid a lot of money as early adopters so the incentive was required.

Export tariffs now are a pittance, if anything they could do to rise to match the increased cost of electricity in general.

Yep, the level of FITS we get didn’t last very long at all and were quickly reduced.
Our system was expensive but had probably paid for itself by now.

trail_rat:

while this is true – i suggest that you read the rules around the permitted development.

you will find you require a large plot of land as the bottom of the turbine has to be X from the ground – the center of the turbine has to be X from the ground and the whole thing has to be +5m(iirc) – but its for sure X meters from a from any boundary if it were to fall over.

I was just looking at the figures and potential because of where I live. I looked into the issues and problems. Looks majorly scary in terms of vibration and then energy production doesn’t seem that good.
Bearing in mind that I’ve lost two wind speed anemometers in two years, the height required not keen on.

Maybe one year someone will fix the main issues with them but I guess it’s just Solar for me.
Shame really because here potentially they could generate a fair bit of power 😉

JeZ

Maybe one year someone will fix the main issues with them but I guess it’s just Solar for me.

I thought a bout a turbine about 15 years ago as we have an open aspect and plenty of space to put one. But the costs where massive and, of course, there’s lots of moving bits to go wrong so I think there’d more room for stuff going wrong whereas PV is effective;y fit and forget.

I can’t see it staying warm for more than a week

Maybe they should substitute water for baked potatoes or McDonalds Hot Apple Pies – both of which seem to stay at nuclear temperatures for days on end!
😉

@mrsparkle I had a quote from a company that uses pylotech batteries however they appear to be housed in a floor mounted cabinet which put me off. They wouldn’t fit easily in the space I had earmarked. No concerns about quality as they appear to have a good reputation but this and the fact that the the company could not provide a solar diverter to heat our water is a bit of a non starter for me.

With the energy cap now confirmed, how many people are recalculating their payback period on £10K installations?

This would be a real shame and maybe part of the master plan by big oil to keep us hooked on Hydrocarbons?

They win either way as they would keep the huge profits and people keep drawing from the grid….

No mention of a new Green Deal (Energy Company Obligation ECO scheme) to subsidise renewables. Is the % of the Energy Co. profits monitored to see how much the actually spend on these?

I’m not. Mine was only partially based on the economics, we started our search before Ukraine and the price rises. We knew it would cost us, but that it was the right thing to be doing. If anything, I’d want MORE solar. Next year we’re planning to add another 8 panels which should lift our array to a theoretical 8.5kW, but some will be easy and some west facing. We’ll use the extra for solar water heating.

…maybe part of the master plan by big oil to keep us hooked on Hydrocarbons?

could be. Or maybe it’s some sort of political ploy?

We’ll continue with our planned PV/battery installation.

Perhaps the cap and so on will reduce demand for PV components and cause prices to stabilise or fall?

With the energy cap now confirmed, how many people are recalculating their payback period on £10K installations?

This would be a real shame and maybe part of the master plan by big oil to keep us hooked on Hydrocarbons?

They win either way as they would keep the huge profits and people keep drawing from the grid….

No mention of a new Green Deal (Energy Company Obligation ECO scheme) to subsidise renewables. Is the % of the Energy Co. profits monitored to see how much the actually spend on these?

Solar makes sense, batteries less so. Even at £0.50ppkWh batteries don’t make financial sense for my use.

As a two person household who both work full time, a system without batteries doesn’t make sense.

Which is why I said for my use. Mrs flicker is at home all day so we can use a good chunk of our generation (around 35%) Over a ten year period the sums for battery storage don’t add up even at 50ppkWh, but that’s based purely around our own situation.

around 35%)

That’s the part that makes no sense without batteries. Unless you can get an immersun or iboost fitted.

With batteries that rises to 85-90% especially if your wfh all day.

I have solar without batteries. Doesn’t really make sense at all. Just the battery tech was NMC at the time and I didn’t want NMC in my house largely. ….. Life4po was on the horizon but not there yet