The right to protest

I believe firmly in the right of people to gather and protest, but WTF is up with people in the UK recently (and not, of course, exclusively the UK) that means they have to get violent and destroy stuff?

I mean, punching and injuring a young woman because she was trying to protect a police horse that had been blinded by bloody fireworks?!?

Jeez.

Strategic silence or good rhetoric, combined the numbers and persistence will always win the day over violence and yobbery.

I’ve not seen details of the incident you’re talking about, and undoubtedly there are a fair few idiots out there, but don’t discount the possibility of agent provocateurs being used to discredit/undermine protests like this. There is a long and well-documented history of the security services doing exactly that.

Human nature?

Values?

Ghandi?

Some people are just angry 🙁

Its a great way of painting all protestors as violent nutters.

There is a long and well-documented history of the security services doing exactly that.

Sauce?

I’ve not seen details of the incident you’re talking about, and undoubtedly there are a fair few idiots out there, but don’t discount the possibility of agent provocateurs being used to discredit/undermine protests like this. There is a long and well-documented history of the security services doing exactly that.

+1. Additionally – ( to OP) don’t discount the potential lack of accuracy that generally accompanies, er, generalisations.

slowoldman – Member
There is a long and well-documented history of the security services doing exactly that.

Sauce?
POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

I like HP but prefer ketchup 😆

I’ve not seen details of the incident you’re talking about, and undoubtedly there are a fair few idiots out there, but don’t discount the possibility of agent provocateurs being used to discredit/undermine protests like this. There is a long and well-documented history of the security services doing exactly that.

+2. I’ve been on a few marches and attended free parties & raves in the early 90s that were perfectly peaceful and good natured until the police showed up. Police intimation and provocation were commonplace.

Almost the perfect British demonstration, from BBC News:

“It would’ve been a revolution, but I think the weather’s put everyone off, to be honest.”

Mob mentality innit.

Police intimation and provocation were commonplace

Really? It’s not that I don’t believe you; it’s just that the British police (while not perfect) have a pretty good reputation for deploying ‘soft power’ in a similar way to Canadian police (also not perfect).

The idea that ‘intimidation and provocation were commonplace’ just doesn’t really jive with that.

Then, maybe I’m just being really naive.

Well here’s just one that caused a court case to collapse, there are lots more though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-under-fire-as-trial-collapses-over-agent-provocateur-claims-2181118.html

This does look a bit suspect but who knows:

See also:

Really? It’s not that I don’t believe you; it’s just that the British police (while not perfect) have a pretty good reputation for deploying ‘soft power’ in a similar way to Canadian police (also not perfect).

The idea that ‘intimidation and provocation were commonplace’ just doesn’t really jive with that.

Then, maybe I’m just being really naive.

Was in a pub in Hackney after the 94′ Hackney Festival. Lots of revellers in there, the pub doing a roaring trade and zero signs of trouble. Then the police vans showed up, officers in full riot gear started to form a line on the street and just stood there biding their time… very intimidating. Then someone chucks a beer can at them so they wade in. Watching people getting hit over the head just for being in a pub isn’t something I want to witness again.

There’s good money in selling masks to anti-capitalists, say capitalists

http://www.thenation.com/article/wonderful-american-world-informers-and-agents-provocateurs/

See also:

An MP who was involved in last month’s G20 protests in London is to call for an investigation into whether the police used agents provocateurs to incite the crowds.

Liberal Democrat Tom Brake says he saw what he believed to be two plain-clothes police officers go through a police cordon after presenting their ID cards.

Brake, who along with hundreds of others was corralled behind police lines near Bank tube station in the City of London on the day of the protests, says he was informed by people in the crowd that the men had been seen to throw bottles at the police and had encouraged others to do the same shortly before they passed through the cordon.

Brake, a member of the influential home affairs select committee, will raise the allegations when he gives evidence before parliament’s joint committee on human rights on Tuesday.

“When I was in the middle of the crowd, two people came over to me and said, ‘There are people over there who we believe are policemen and who have been encouraging the crowd to throw things at the police,'” Brake said. But when the crowd became suspicious of the men and accused them of being police officers, the pair approached the police line and passed through after showing some form of identification.

Brake has produced a draft report of his experiences for the human rights committee, having received written statements from people in the crowd. These include Tony Amos, a photographer who was standing with protesters in the Royal Exchange between 5pm and 6pm. “He [one of the alleged officers] was egging protesters on. It was very noticeable,” Amos said. “Then suddenly a protester seemed to identify him as a policeman and turned on him. He ­legged it towards the police line, flashed some ID and they just let him through, no questions asked.”

Amos added: “He was pretty much inciting the crowd. He could not be called an observer. I don’t believe in conspiracy theories but this really struck me. Hopefully, a review of video evidence will clear this up.”

Police intimation and provocation were commonplace
Really? It’s not that I don’t believe you; it’s just that the British police (while not perfect) have a pretty good reputation for deploying ‘soft power’ in a similar way to Canadian police (also not perfect).

The idea that ‘intimidation and provocation were commonplace’ just doesn’t really jive with that.

Then, maybe I’m just being really naive.

Might want to get along to one and actually witness what goes on. Seriously, I’ve done it a few times as a purely objective bystander at some of the big London anti-capitalist demos.
Police will incite, once control/containment is established, and snatch those who retaliate. Valid? Perhaps.
I’d also expect disinformation spread across social media and news media outlets.

See also instead:

http://www.agentprovocateur.com/gb_en

Might want to get along to one and actually witness what goes on. Seriously, I’ve done it a few times as a purely objective bystander at some of the big London anti-capitalist demos.
Police will incite, once control/containment is established, and snatch those who retaliate. Valid? Perhaps.
I’d also expect disinformation spread across social and media outlets.

+1

The reason I love the hills and mountains:
You rarely get a crowd, inparticular one that could flare into a mob in seconds.

The reason I love the hills and mountains:
You rarely get a crowd, inparticular one that could flare into a mob in seconds.

Yeah those bloody mobs:

+2. I’ve been on a few marches and attended free parties & raves in the early 90s that were perfectly peaceful and good natured until the police showed up

+3. I’ve been in numerous situations where the police caused a riot/violence. And they were uniforms not plain clothed ‘provocateurs’. Of course the question is whether it was premeditated. Some probably was, most probably not. The police, as well as protestors, contain some who have a shorter fuse than others, and that’s all it takes.

I rapidly came to the conclusion in my politico days that you could measure the effectiveness of a protest/demonstration/march by how heavy handed the police were. That’s why on trade union organised things there’s never any bother.

Then someone chucks a beer can at them

Oh.

The reason I love the hills and mountains:
You rarely get a crowd, inparticular one that could flare into a mob in seconds

You haven’t seen me lose it when I’m out on the bike.

Oh.

Having 30 men in riot gear staring at you is provocation/intimidation. Someone was bound throw something at some point. Oh, I forgot to mention they had police dogs too.

I’ve been on a few marches and attended free parties & raves in the early 90s that were perfectly peaceful and good natured until the police showed up

and another we were sat with loads of other in various places just having a picnic and chatting when the police charged us on horseback. One father had to lie over his child as the horses ran over hsi pivinc

This sort of thin makes people angry and then they arrest them for responding

Dont get me wrong the police have a hard job and I also saw folk selling bricks from a wheelbarrow so there were those looking for violence on both sides.

I also got told to **** off by a copper when i said excuse me office can we get out of this it is turning violent and i dont want any part of it. The next hour of my life, getting baton charged, was not very pleasant

Nothing like sticking it to the man by wearing a mask made in a sweatshop, with a large slice of the money paying royalties for use of the image an to evil multinational corporation 😆

Of course, there’s also a certain irony about belonging to an organisation that promotes anarchy 🙂

This sort of thin makes people angry and then they arrest them for responding

Hmm, there I was, innocently walking along as part of a peaceful protest, when I suddenly got outraged at the police intimidation, coincidentally, at this point, i remembered that I hadn’t unpacked my cold weather gear (gloves and balaclava) or my art supplies (six cans of spray paint, three cans of expanding foam and a hammer) from my knapsack. Honest!

This million masks demo should be banned. It doesn’t have a proper organiser or anyone responsible so should be illegal.

@grum what you say may have some merit but its clutching at straws to imply the widespread trouble we saw last night was due to infiltrations, there is a hardcore of people who come to these anarchy related demonstrations with exactly that in mind. They’ve come to cause trouble and damage.

As an aside France has just announced full border controls for the month ahead of the climate conference in Paris to reduce the amount of trouble makers expected.

there is a hardcore of people who come to these anarchy related demonstrations with exactly that in mind. They’ve come to cause trouble and damage

THats a pretty unfair way to describe the police 😉

There may be but we then have a hardore of a few tens in a crowd of [hundreds of thousands] so lets not overstate the case or ban all the peaceful protestors because of a tiny tiny minority.

Any large crowd will have this just like any festival will have drunk and disorderly and drugs. We have to allow dissent even unruly descent as the rule of law is only worth respecting when it respects its citizens rights. Dont ban everyone because of the fewa; its like banning cars from Mways because some folk do 100 mph on them.

Or banning guns because a few people go nuts? 😉

(Knives because some people get stabby, drugs because some people overdose etc. – there’s plenty of things we ban due to a minority abusing the right, it’s just that we pick and choose things we ‘like’ and ‘dislike’)

The reason I love the hills and mountains:
You rarely get a crowd, inparticular one that could flare into a mob in seconds.

Unless you’re on a night ride in Brighton.. 😀

Nothing like sticking it to the man by wearing a mask made in a sweatshop, with a large slice of the money paying royalties for use of the image an to evil multinational corporation

You really don’t need to be so pleased with yourself for makign such an unoriginal observation.

“Police intimation and provocation”
Common complaint but if you don’t do as they ask you are wrong. Your opinion doesn’t count.
Not talking police state by the way so much as ” move along sir, you’re causing an obstruction.
Say no and you are wrong.

Oh yeah and reacting to provocation is your fault. Just go home if you can’t cope peacefully.
Its a bit like objecting to sting operations to catch crooks. The best way IMHO. If you can’t resist the temptation to offend that you deserve to be caught.

Oh yeah and reacting to provocation is your fault

Someone once provoked me by hitting my kids and making them cry…i felt terrible for my reaction afterwards and wished i had just gone home and said nothing to them

Will you forgive me ?

and of course everything a single police office ever says is always 100 % correct in all circumstances;they are literally always correct and have never ever provoked anyone ever.

Tomlinson was asking for it wasnt he bastard trying to get home and getting in the way of the highly trained operative calmly doing his job.

Always right those coppers

No offence to the plod on here its a hard job and I am not a cop basher but, as humans serve in your ranks , you do make mistakes.

Can’t believe the official line hasn’t been quoted yet.

‘If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.’

ergo, if you got in a scrap with the Bill, you had it coming my son!

Of course the irony filter is on…before I get shot down.

Saw it happen during the riots in the 80s. We too, were on a quiet night out when we bumped into chaos. Quite frightening. we managed to leg it before the SPG rocked up.

Any large crowd will have this just like any festival will have drunk and disorderly and drugs.

400,000 at the countryside alliance march. No violence. No disorder. No arrests.

Oh, actually, that’s not quite true. There were two arrests. Out of the 150 anti-hunt protesters 😉

400,000 at the countryside alliance march. No violence. No disorder. No arrests.

Oh, actually, that’s not quite true. There were two arrests. Out of the 150 anti-hunt protesters

Nice stats Stoner, firm proof of which side the police are on, wouldn’t you say?

or no one of the 400,000 thought that they couldnt help but throw a can of beer at those intimidating rozzers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20003058

To balance the argument – not all protesters are violent and they still get treated harshly by the establishment.

400,000 at the countryside alliance march. No violence. No disorder. No arrests.

2 milion protested against the Iraq war with no violence, what’s your point? I was on the Iraq march, it was obvious there’d be no trouble as there was barely a police officer to be seen let alone any riot cops. It wasn’t an accident. Apart from a tiny few incidents, the police have it completely within their power to diffuse and prevent violence, largely by keeping a distance and maintaining a light touch. Yet sometimes they see fit to use kettling, baton charges, horses etc when it’s not required. Why is that I wonder?

Edit: Two sides to every story