mattsccm – Member

Oh yeah and reacting to provocation is your fault. Just go home if you can’t cope peacefully.

They thought of that, it’s why they invented the kettle, and other containment tactics. It’s no good spending hours trying to provoke a protest into violence if they can just leave- you have to trap them first, and make sure there’s plenty of cameras around, then you provoke them.

Then sit down, chill out and wait till you can go home, the sooner everyone does, the sooner everyone goes home.

It’s like being stuck in a traffic jam – no point getting angry and shouting at people, beeping your horn like a tosser.

Not that difficult a concept is it? In fact I think most of us learned it at school.

Battle of the bean field.
Miner’s strike
for those old enough to remember

Certain protest groups have a propensity towards violence, or are we supposed to believe that all protesters behave the same and the police are ‘mean’ towards some and not others? It’s all a huge conspiracy. 😆

ninfan – Member

Then sit down, chill out and wait till you can go home, the sooner everyone does, the sooner everyone goes home.

And also hope that everyone else who’s crowded in with you with no food, water or facilities also remains perfectly calm for several hours. Including the random bystanders who’re quite likely stuck in with you, they’re generally the most furious. And assuming there’s nobody in with you whose job it is to start trouble.

It’s a simple concept as you say so it’s surprising you can’t understand how it works. You’d soon get the hang of it soon enough if you tried it. First time I ever got kettled, it was resolutely peaceful for about 2 hours (mostly because of some very effective organisers, and it was a pretty tight group in the first place) until, in the absence of a toilet, a bloke peed against a wall. In comes the flying wedge, arrest the guy. Some people inevitably get in the way, because they have nowhere else to be, let’s knock them about and arrest a few for obstruction. Make sure you complete the arrests as messily and visibly as possible, so their mates can see. And once the crowd’s been shown that being peaceful is no defence, the mood starts to change very fast.

I heard a Met officer say to a protestor at the G8, “Come on, we all want to go home, you know we’ll keep you here til you kick off so why not do it now, save some time?” Says it all. I’ve seen a woman arrested for having a panic attack in a kettle, now that was ugly, crowd went from peaceful to incandescent in about 5 seconds. There’d be something wrong with you if you didn’t get angry, at this sort of thing.

But by all means, blame the water for boiling. I’ve seen containment done to maintain the peace, and it’s a totally different deal to an aggressive kettle, which has one job and does it well.

Then sit down, chill out and wait till you can go home, the sooner everyone does, the sooner everyone goes home.

I guess you’ve never been inside a ‘kettle’, a more accurate term being ‘overcrowded open air prison with no toilet facilities, food or water’. It’s a truly scary experience if you’re not prepared for it. Having to piss and shit in the street with no privacy, basically incarcerated for no other reason than being in a particular place at a particular time. And before you say, yes there were lots of bystanders caught up in it. I once witnessed a young mother with two toddlers caught up in one because she was walking past when the cops closed off the street. She begged them for hours to let her out, the kids were screaming, cold and hungry, but they didn’t and she had to rely on the kindness of strangers in the crowd to provide food, water and some shelter for the kids for about 4 hours until the police decided to let everyone go.

I was under the impression that kettling had been illegal for a good few years now.

Waah waah waah.

Kettled for 4 hours. Wow, I am surprised nobody died of dehydration or hunger in that time, what were the evil b*stard police thinking?

Ever been arrested for something you didn’t do? Sitting in a cell for hours because someone else f**ked up?

What do you do? Get upset about it? Shout and bang on the door? Start smashing your head against the wall? 🙄

Well, you can do all that, it sure as **** won’t help you though.

Me? I asked for a copy of the bible to read, a copy of PACE guidelines and a pencil and paper while it all got sorted out

Guess what happened? That’s right, it all got sorted out.

Getting smashy, violent and stroppy when you don’t get your own way rarely helps, in fact it only ever makes things worse for you, simples 8)

Did you get a good kicking before you got flung in though? Guess not…

I should probably say that all my experiences with police have been positive, usually a polite smile and a few words keep everyone happy. Strathclydes finest were used to worse on old firm derbys, a bunch of angry students were nothing to get fussed about.

ninfan – did you actually read the posts you responded to? Because, with all due respect; you’re coming across as a bit of a tosser.

ninfan – Member

Ever been arrested for something you didn’t do? Sitting in a cell for hours because someone else f**ked up?

Yup. And the 2 things have almost nothing in common. HTH.

But lets try and work with the failed analogy. Instead of just you in the cell, there’s enough people crammed in to make it standing room only. (Quite a few of them are probably manky dreadlocked hippies) The police won’t tell you anything about why you’re being held, or for how long. A bunch of people have had to piss or shit on the floor. There’s some really angry people who won’t stop shouting in your ear, some really boring people who won’t stop telling you about all the other marches they’ve been on, you have no idea which is worse any more. There’s a couple of randoms who weren’t in the demo at all but got grabbed anyway, and have missed their train home- and you’re more pissed off about that than about anything that’s happening to you. Every so often, one of you gets grabbed pretty much at random by a dozen policemen and dragged off, and you have no idea if you’re going to be next. (for some reason, it’s never the people who really want to leave) You know you’re going to be judged not just on your behaviour but on that of everyone else in the cell, none of whom you’ve met before. Not that it really matters, because you’re already being peaceful and it’s become pretty apparent that all this gets you, is shut in til you do something else. Oh and there’s this one guy, who is always shouting at the police and trying to get people to start a fight, yet inexplicably it’s never him that gets arrested.

That’s getting a bit closer.

Kettled for 4 hours. Wow, I am surprised nobody died of dehydration or hunger in that time, what were the evil b*stard police thinking?

Go and have a shit in the middle of your local high street on a saturday afternoon, stand next to it for 4 hours, then come back tell us what a wonderful experience it was.

IME it smells better than standing next to most of the usual suspects who seem to frequent these type of protests…

I still don’t get why so many of these peaceful protesters who are oh-so provoked by the evil police seem to have gone to a peaceful protest equipped for a riot. Makes you think eh?

4 hours…….. and people were shitting on the pavement ?

Violent, cowardly people are attracted to demonstrations.
They like to hurt people, but only if they are guaranteed anonymity.
Some wear a bandana, some wear a uniform.

These people are our enemy.

The rest of us, no matter if we’re marching with the Countryside Alliance or the SWP are on the same side.

Condoning violence because it’s aimed at someone you disagree with is pathetic.

DrJ, I seem to remember I thought you were dead wrong on the Greece Default thread. You are, however absolutely correct on this one.

Is there an official frequency you’re allowed to shit?

imnotverygood – you’re in progress. Now go back to the Greece thread and you’ll see I was 100% correct there too 🙂

Rusty Spanner – Member
Violent, cowardly people are attracted to demonstrations.
They like to hurt people, but only if they are guaranteed anonymity.
Some wear a bandana, some wear a uniform.

These people are our enemy.

The rest of us, no matter if we’re marching with the Countryside Alliance or the SWP are on the same side.

Condoning violence because it’s aimed at someone you disagree with is pathetic.

I do so hate agreeing with Rusty, you know. However, in this case…..

Spot on, sir. Spot on.

4 hours…….. and people were shitting on the pavement ?

Like I said, those who are unprepared. Once you’ve been kettled once, the next time it’s a possibility you make sure you go to the loo beforehand and don’t drink too much. Alternatively, you scarper and spread out as much as possible as soon as there’s enough cops to make a kettle possible. This of course in terms of public order makes things worse, as what you get is lots of separate groups of protesters, all of whom are pretty psyched up after being chased by the cops, and who are pretty pissed off. And then people wonder why they start smashing windows etc…

IME it smells better than standing next to most of the usual suspects who seem to frequent these type of protests…

<insert great-unwashed hippies paid by socialist workers cliche here>

Or just ignore the troll…..

Is there an official frequency you’re allowed to shit?

It’s not set in stone no 🙄

Although I think most adults can manage a few hours if they really need to.

Unless of course it either made up to prove a point, or just done to prove a point, either of which seem quite likely if adults are shitting on the pavement in public after 4 hours.

Most adults can. In a crowd of 100 people likely there’s someone who can’t.

Unless of course it either made up to prove a point, or just done to prove a point, either of which seem quite likely if adults are shitting on the pavement in public after 4 hours.

I think the chances of someone needing a shit out of a random sample of 500 people, in the afternoon or evening after being kept away from a toilet for 4 hours is probably going to be quite high. We’re only talking a few people here, it’s not like everyone was doing it. And yes, never ever underestimate the urge for otherwise sane and normal people to resort to public dirty protests the minute they want to make a point about police heavy handedness 🙄

There was quite the smell of shit when the cOuntryside Alliance marched.

But that was because that’s how they smell normally.

I had a long post typed out earlier, but it was predominantly anecdote and contained nothing constructive. Neither does this one really, but here’s my tuppenceworth anyway…

– I am strongly in favour of protests and holding the government to account.

– I don’t like bullies and thugs whichever side they’re on.

– Most cops think the same, and most of them don’t want it to kick off. Sadly we have our share of dickheads. On either side of the line, it only takes a few to spoil it for everyone.

– Kettling is awful. I’m grateful that it wasn’t used on any of the deployments I’ve been on. I can appreciate why it is used in some circumstances, but it is extremely unfair on the majority of people caught up in it so I struggle to see how the end justifies the means, and I suspect that more often than not it causes more disorder than it prevents, so there’s no net benefit.

– Police being intimidating has it’s place as a tactic – particularly when you’re massively outnumbered and stuck between opposing sets of adrenaline filled football casuals 😕 – but only occasionally.

– Kettling is shit. It’s worth repeating. They need to come up with an alternative.

– I suspect it is very difficult to get the strategy just right and I’m sure command level decisions that with hindsight might be wrong were made in good faith at the time.

– I’m glad I don’t do public order anymore. It’s thankless and the packed lunches are dreadful.

Truncheon meat sandwiches again?
With hamcuffs?

🙂 If you’re lucky, usually warm egg on wilted brown bread with a smear of Stork axle grease. I’m afraid I’m unable to convert that into police related puns at this late hour.

Wilted brown bread?
A nice baton, surely?

Sorry officer.
This coat? No, I have no idea what’s in the pockets, I’m minding it for a friend.

Peaceful protest never changed anything. That is why it’s allowed.

Just like democracy… 😉

Ninfan, you’re either a troll, or an idiot. Which is it?

Kettling is awful. I’m grateful that it wasn’t used on any of the deployments I’ve been on.

When I first witnessed it, on a reclaim the streets demo in Manchester some time in the late 90s, it was a pretty new tactic. The police looked pretty damn uncomfortable and not very happy about it either, especially when confronted with the lady with her two kids I mentioned earlier. At the time I didn’t but looking back I have some sympathy with them, as it couldn’t have been easy.

Its true many of those attracted to perfectly legitimate demos are only there for a bit of aggro

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001

forward to 4:20

nealglover – Member

Although I think most adults can manage a few hours if they really need to

<can’t believe the thread’s gone quite this way but>

Have you considered that maybe they didn’t have a shit immediately before being kettled?

Ninfan, you’re either a troll, or an idiot. Which is it?

He likes to take up barely logical/tenuous position then argue it

He is not stupid but very often what he says and does to defend a position is.

I vowed never to involve myself in the ‘political’ threads, on joining this forum, but they are simply too compelling.

“Police intimation and provocation”
Common complaint but if you don’t do as they ask you are wrong. Your opinion doesn’t count.
Not talking police state by the way so much as ” move along sir, you’re causing an obstruction.
Say no and you are wrong.

Without getting into what the protestors get up to on demos, police officers routinely break many laws at such demos. A friend is a lawyer at a law firm which represents many clients who have been arrested at demonstrations. They are very successful at not only winning their cases, but also at bringing successful lawsuits against police forces for wrongful arrest, assault, unlawful detention and a whole host of other offences. This never seems to make headlines. One client alone has won tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds in damages against the police. This has cost the taxpayer many times that. Multiply that by hundreds of cases per year, and it starts to add up quite a bit.

I think those who are ‘defending’ the actions of the police at certain demos have no experience of what actually happens at such events. I have, like others on here, witnessed police provocation and instigation of violence. It happens. It’s a fact. As is the instigation of violence by certain elements within a demonstration crowd itself. The difference is, is that the police have a fundamental duty to uphold law and order. And sometimes, they fail in that duty. And occasionally, they fail spectacularly.

And whatever you may think about the usual suspects who seem to frequent these type of protests, the fact remains that they are also members of the same society as you. Exercising their democratic right to protest. So a police car got burnt; so 3 officers ended up needing medical treatment; it’s hardly North Korea, is it? 😉

Kettling is awful. I’m grateful that it wasn’t used on any of the deployments I’ve been on. I can appreciate why it is used in some circumstances, but it is extremely unfair on the majority of people caught up in it so I struggle to see how the end justifies the means, and I suspect that more often than not it causes more disorder than it prevents, so there’s no net benefit.

There’s a reason it’s called a ‘kettle’. A kettle boils, creates pressure. Kettling is a deliberate tactic designed to create trouble. It’s utilised in order to create a situation where the police can claim they needed to use ‘reasonable force’ to quell/break up a demonstration. Except it doesn’t always work like that, and many people have brought successful cases against the police following such incidents, to the extent most police forces are loathe to employ such tactics these days.

What is of far more significant interest, is how the police are being used as a political tool. There were significantly larger numbers of police deployed at last night’s demonstrations, than at other demos. There is a direct correlation between numbers of police present, and levels of violence. The saddest thing is, that the individual officers are ordered to act against the people who are actually protesting about the very government who have systematically screwed over the police pensions. There’s a sour irony in all that. 🙁

You don’t have to go too far back in Britain’s history to realise our rights for the most part were bitterly fought for, not given out in gift week.

Maybe if people weren’t so apathetic, easily divided and pacified we wouldn’t be witnessing the slide backward in working rights amongst others.

On the plus side, at least Boris didn’t get his water cannons approved…

I believe firmly in the right of people to gather and protest, but WTF is up with people in the UK recently (and not, of course, exclusively the UK) that means they have to get violent and destroy stuff?

I think people are becoming more and more angry basically..
There’s more to be pissed off about, info and evidence are more readily available..
The internet allows people to get their heads together more efficiently than ever before..
People are ready to fight for equality and justice..

There’s a lot of angry young people out there with no future who probably genuinely view themselves as revolutionary freedom fighters – I wonder how long the tories would have to stay in power before someone took the logical next step of training and arming those angry young people…