The reality of Gore-Tex?

My current rain jacket, by Helly Hansen, which I have worn for a good few years, and which I have always liked, is pretty well-worn now, and I am thinking of replacing it.

The thing is, I have always just assumed that the uncomfortable, sweaty reality of it was just something that is try of all rain jackets, whatever their claims to the contrary.

Well, in light of the video, below, not only does it seem I was right, it would appear that there really is no ideal rain gear, and that some of those high tech fabrics and coatings are actually quite bad.

Any gear users and/or scientists on here want to comment?

The GoreTex doesn’t work thing has been done on here repeatedly and I doubt there’s any more to add.

FWIW I have an Outdry jacket and it works really well. Bulky though, and looks shit.

It’s really simple

If you are working hard and sweating your tits off then no fabric membrane will be able to move the moisture away faster than you create it and stay waterproof

This is the challenge that technology hasn’t solved

BikeRadar summed it up quite well a few years back: the ideal product that keeps the rain off you and is fully breathable exists. It’s called an umbrella, and anything else is compromising on either the waterproof or the breathable side of things

Gore-tex and other breathable membranes are not perfect, but they are generally better than the alternatives which are a) get rained on or b) a non-breathable waterproof.

There is a school of thought that thinks a) is ok, provided you wear clothes that allow you to be comfortable when wet. In my experience this works when you are working very hard i.e. cycling and it’s not raining too much or it’s warm rain; but when it’s cold, you’re just walking along and it rains hard the cold water running down your torso is pretty unpleasant.  I did a bike ride a few years back in a fleece and technical tshirt underneath. It was quite warm, and it did proper summer rain for half the ride. I was comfortable at the start because I wasn’t wearing a waterproof, I was warm enough when it rained heavily (because it was warm rain) and I dried out quite quickly.

What a lot of people don’t realise with breathable waterproofs is that it’s absolutely essential to keep the water-repellency (DWR) fresh on the outside and this is a ball-ache. Never wash your waterproof in the same machine as your regular clothes – sponge or bucket wash it with special gear wash (Tech Wash) OR if you have to machine wash it, really really rinse your machine well before hand and use the special cleaner.  Some fabrics hold the DWR well – I have an old Goretex Paclite which does pretty well; others do not like my Rab eVent jacket. It seems to be that the denser the weave of the outer fabric and the more crinkly and rustly it is the better it holds on.  When you’ve re-proofed it, then iron it – this really helps.

Even when they are properly proofed, they are only somewhat better than non-breathables. They can shift a certain amount of vapour, which depending on conditions may not be enough; but it might be. If you are just walking along and it’s not too humid or wet you’ll generally be ok. However with non-breathable waterproofs you will always get wet sooner or later because your skin is always perspiring to an extent.

It’s called an umbrella,

Or a poncho. I’ve seen Alpine climbing guides using both.

Goretex Active shell works pretty well on the bike at touring paces ime, better than other versions. None of it is any good at higher effort levels. I use thin primaloft with a resistant outer layer when it’s grim and accept getting wet as long as I don’t get cold.

The reality of Goretex seems to keep the youtube clickbaiters in content though.

I think that people moaning about gore-tex have forgotten how rubbish the stuff we had before it was. Gore-tex was waterproof, lightweight, and not as sweaty as the other stuff.

The idea of wearing stuff that’s comfortable when it’s wet, IME, is great right up until the point that you get cold. Then you’re cold and wet, and if you’re a long way from home you can very quickly be in serious trouble.

My personal experience has been that Gore-tex is more durable (generally) than its competitors.

The reality of Goretex seems to keep the youtube clickbaiters in content though.

LOL. It’s 2024. Anyone still posting videos about how GoreTex works and calling it a scam is either knowingly repeating stuff as clickbait or actually knows a lot less than they think they do and isn’t someone who’s output I’d watch.

^ Yeah,  they’re repeating stuff as clickbait. Same old stuff going around isn’t it.

Gore-tex and most other proprietary fabrics can be amazing when treated properly, so staying becomes an exercise in managing temperature and sweat. I usually embrace the rain when running hot as a waterproof jacket will always be unpleasant, but for walking and climbing I wholeheartedly recmd the Mountain Equipment Manaslu or Lhotse if you can get a decent deal.

I prefer Buffalo type clothing – ie uses hydrophilic to attempt to keep you dry but is warm if it wets out. You can’t wear anything underneath for them to work properly.
Goretex/permeable membrane fabrics arent worth the hassle of trying to keep modern DWR working. Goretex worked really work well in the early days when fluorocarbon/PFC DWR’s were used.

The reality of GoreTex for me has been pretty darn good , despite what a bit of clickbait on YOuTube might claim.  I bought a GT Pro jacket some years ago, and it has gone several hundred days of climbing, ice climbing, some skiing, a lot ofhiking and fieldwork on it, and in that time I’ve been dry, and not too sticky in summer and winter conditions.

Umbreally/Poncho – might be great if you want to go to the Bus stop. Not so great if you want to do something, especially if it’s windy.  Perhaps it’s not windy where these people live.  It is where I live, it’s a lot windier than where you live I’d assume, and it rains a lot.  I wouldn’t even use an umbrella to go to the bus stop as it’s a full km to the nearest stop, and you’ll get drenched in that

Oddly enough the last alpine guide I climbed with, in Rjukan in February was wearing….. Goretex.  No umbrella, no poncho

I don’t like Buffalo as while being warm and damp is ok for running and biking, for some of the above it gives you a pretty miserable day.

I don’t like Event as it’s really expensive – you need a new jacket every few months because that’s how long they last.  As a comment I am not good at renewing the DWR on my jacket… but it still works well enough.

As a self proclaimed sweaty b’stard, I can confirm the difference between goretex and none breathable is night & day, although goretex motorcycle kit can get in the sea (doesn’t repel water well enough for that environment & gets very wet).

I sought out eVent for the last two jackets but even though I’ve been an advocate, I have to admit that I just can’t keep the DWR on and I’ll have to go back to Gore-Tex.  I’ll need a new jacket this autumn. If anyone sees any great deals for £200 or under let me know.

PS @saxonrider I have an older eVent Rab jacket in the loft if you want it.  It’s not perfect but you are welcome to it if you’re in need.

@molgrips try SPRINGSTRAVA30 code on Gorewear?

While I prefer softshells and avoid waterproofs as much possible, for proper rain I do think Goretex jackets are worth it.

One point about Goretex is that because it’s more of a premium fabric (most brands will have a lower tier fabric range, eg Pertex Shield, etc), I tend to find the jackets that use it tend to be better designed in terms of fit and features compared to the cheaper, non GTX models.

I like Goretex or equivalent. OK so there are conditions it doesn’t work very well but there are conditions it works well enough and conditions it’s great. Ski touring at altitude in high winds with spindrift in the air you stay cosy and dry where with waxed cotton or a K-Way you were soon soaked with sweat.

Just a like a lot of consumer goods, marketed to raise expectations beyond what it actually delivers.

I don’t like Buffalo as while being warm and damp is ok for running and biking, for some of the above it gives you a pretty miserable day.

2nd this, Buffalo style stuff has a place but it’s pretty limited.

I sought out eVent for the last two jackets but even though I’ve been an advocate, I have to admit that I just can’t keep the DWR on and I’ll have to go back to Gore-Tex

I had one event jacket and found it absolutely dreadful. I’ve seen a few comments over the years that it works well with a lot of care but that seemed to consist of reproofing every few weeks in regular use and I just couldn’t be bothered.

Worst jacket I ever had was a Rab eVent in about 2009-12

I really looked after it but it was pretty useless

Worst jacket I ever had was a Rab eVent in about 2009-12

I really looked after it but it was pretty useless

Mine didn’t even seem to be windproof, much less waterproof! Think it was Montane.

Meh, bin-dun plenty, there is one thing I will note with pricey outdoor jackets, they are actually removable, you can take them off when you start sweating your nuts off, but lots of people don’t seem to realise this.

The classic “Altura man” (other brands are available) you see out and about who’s bloody well paid a bit extra for an activity specific jacket and is going to wear it under all circumstances no matter what, is still funny to me. It’s not just ‘confirmation bias’ it’s a ‘getting your money’s worth’ consumer mindset.

Generally:

Jacket off for the climb.

Jacket on for the descent.

Makes life a little more complicated as you have to carry the jacket or use a backpack

I was up a mountain in my old 3-layer waterproof in a storm the other day, and tbh that was a ride that would just not be practical or safe without a proper Full On Jacket. And at the same time, it was cold enough to keep the amount of sweat down so breathability wasn’t a real concern even under the maximum effort bits. That’s when goretex and similar just absolutely shines, for me it’s not day to day kit, it’s “edge of not riding at all” kit, it’s “ride you committed to before you saw the forecast”, “racing in november”, etc.

Honestly it feels to me like a lot of this is just people being overdressed? You don’t immediately need to reach for a bombproof waterproof when it’s raining, and if it’s warm and wet it’s often not the right choice. And you see people out in waterproof jackets even in the dry, just using it as a top layer in all conditions and sweating buckets, that always seems mad to me. Admittedly it takes pretty bad weather to get me out of shorts and tshirt.

Gillets are bloody brilliant for the UK, and super packable of course, but very out of fashion. Lighterweight waterproofs with massive vents likewise. There’s no substitute for a massive pit vent imo, nothing breathes as well as a hole. Just shifting the mindset from “stay completely dry” which never happens anyway to “stay comfortable and roll with it”.

(the other half of it I think is people just aren’t very good at weighing up pros and cons in the moment. Yes your waterproof is probably sweaty, your waterproof socks let in a little water, but it’s easy to overlook the benefits, how much wetter and miserabler you would probably be otherwise. And that’s the actual trick, to make the right call between the different pros and cons. It’s not easy!)

I’ve seen a few comments over the years that [eVent] works well with a lot of care but that seemed to consist of reproofing every few weeks in regular use

Well, even immediately after reproofing in the most optimum way possible, it still partially wets out in rain BUT I am still warm and dry so I am not sure how significant it is that water beads off every surface.  I have complained about the jacket but it never let me down until the hood leaked – which was fixable.  That’s more a feature of the fact it was a cheap Rab model than the fabric.

The fact it let wind through a bit was great for me because I do get hot and sweaty a lot.  Easy enough to wear slightly thicker insulation underneath and it let me be more consistent with temperature.

they are actually removable, you can take them off when you start sweating your nuts of

We are obviously aware of it, but it is possible to be sweating your nuts off in rain and you don’t want to take the jacket off because you get soaked with cold water.  This is exactly why breathable fabrics exist and is the whole point of this thread.

Honestly it feels to me like a lot of this is just people being overdressed? You don’t immediately need to reach for a bombproof waterproof when it’s raining, and if it’s warm and wet it’s often not the right choice.

I am talking about walking and mountain climbing, not cycling.  In the mountains in the UK being wet can very easily be life threatening, so the jacket is important.

The reality for Gore-Tex is that it may be coming to an end soon due to REACH regulations regarding PFAS!

I am talking about walking and mountain climbing, not cycling.

TBF depends on what “cycling” consists of. I’m sure enough of us do ride bikes in inclement conditions well away from any assistance where being wet could become life threatening.

Might as well post this before someone else does…

I am talking about walking and mountain climbing, not cycling. In the mountains in the UK being wet can very easily be life threatening, so the jacket is important.

Some of us use bikes in them there mountain areas from time to time.

“Oddly enough the last alpine guide I climbed with, in Rjukan in February was wearing….. Goretex. No umbrella, no poncho”

For actual climbing, sure : ) only seen them used on walks to huts and similar low level stuff and can see the sense in certain conditions.

Some of us use bikes in them there mountain areas from time to time.

Yes, me too. But I was talking about climbing and walking.

The reality for Gore-Tex is that it may be coming to an end soon due to REACH regulations regarding PFAS!

Haven’t they begun a process of replacing the original ePTFE membrane with an ePE – or something – membrane, that’s produced without the use of dubious fluoro-chemicals, which – as I understand it – are used to produce the pores in ePTFE. It’s already on the market and the aim is for all Gore-Tex fabrics to use it by, erm, winter 2025 or maybe 2024, sorry I can’t remember, riding up hills on the road means my brain cells have run down my jersey…

More generally, I’ve used a lot of Gore-Tex over a lot of years. It’s not perfect, it has limitations, but it’s comparatively reliable. It’s not without flaws, but it’s not ‘a scam’, at least in the sense that I understand the word. I think Gore has, over the years, maybe been guilty of over promising, but that’s marketing for you. And in PR terms, it’s been quite secretive about the detailed structure of its fabrics and the manufacturing processes behind them, which doesn’t really help much. PU smear that’s never mentioned anyone?

In other news, I always go to YouTube when I want unbiased, detailed advice, it’s what it’s renowned for, right?

Buffalo style stuff has a place but it’s pretty limited.

I’ve said this a number of times; for several years I was working outdoors all year, for ten hour days, supplied with a conventional industrial hi-viz ‘waterproof’, which certainly wasn’t. My solution, during the winter, was  Buffalo Special 6, with a cheap Peter Storm over the top, and my hi-viz vest over that. The Millets jacket wasn’t that waterproof, but, and this is the important thing, it didn’t need to be, all it needed to do was keep the heavy rain from the Buffalo, which just got damp on the surface. With a Helly base layer, I was perfectly dry and warm and comfortable, with just a slightly moist outer layer on the Buffalo. I was eventually issued with a pretty decent breathable hi-viz waterproof which worked ok, and didn’t matter if it got mucky, and was better for warmer weather because it had no insulation inside, turning me into a boil-in-the-bag human!
Still got it, it lives in the car now for emergency wet wear.

Just a note: a few people, above, have commented that this topic has been done to death. I can only apologise. I hadn’t ever noticed when such threads came up. I’ve only been interested lately because Mrs SR especially, but also I, have been doing more outdoor stuff on foot, and quite a bit of camping.

I was thinking of berating you for bringing it up again, I think some folk are just tired of repeating the same old, same old, so you might not get as many responses as the topic might deserve. Searching for previous threads on the topic might throw up some results, but I think it’s mostly all already been said (again) in this thread.

molgrips
Free Member

I am talking about walking and mountain climbing, not cycling. In the mountains in the UK being wet can very easily be life threatening, so the jacket is important.

Yes, of course. But the exact same applies, I thought that’d be obvious. It’s always about balancing wet and not, hot and not but people seem to expect breathability to somehow keep you cool and unsweaty even when wearing heavy duty clothes. You can get thinner waterproofs, you can get all-day-pissing-down waterproofs, you can get more vented or more detachable waterproofs, and most important is layering which is an absolute art. But if you’re overdressed it doesn’t matter what the materials are or the technical capability, you’re going to overheat.

 But if you’re overdressed it doesn’t matter what the materials are or the technical capability, you’re going to overheat.

Yep, exactly. I think there’s a curious fantasy out there that it’s possible to create some sort of magical clothing that means you will never overheat or feel uncomfortable. The reality is that if you work hard wearing pretty much anything, in a lot of conditions, you will overheat. You’re really just looking for the best way to manage that so you remain as comfortable as possible, comfort, essentially, being the absence of discomfort. Clothing cannot stop you getting hot or sweating, arguably the only way you can do that is by moving really slowly.

I can never get any of these materials to ‘bead’ like do when new but they are all way nicer to wear than the cagoules we had as kids in the 70’s.

On a very wet morning in Wales recently on the Traws Eyryi I wore a cheap Altura cycling waterproof with vents and I now think that a hood that over your helmet is more important than which material 🙂

 I think it’s mostly all already been said (again) in this thread.

What hasn’t (yet) been said is that Paramo stuff is better than GoreTex. Which is the point when I mention that my Paramo jacket is as waterproof as Nora Batty’s nylons.

Anecdote – someone mentioned that Paramo will reproof your jacket for 25 quid. It’s 35 quid now, but I still thought that was decent, since I’ve failed to do it myself with a bucket of Nikwax. So I sent it in and they told me that they could proof it and also repair it for £100. Again, seemed reasonable to give a new lease of life to a £400 jacket. But they’ve had it for months now. Luckily it’s summer so I don’t need a waterproof jacket.