TBH it’s a bit of a moot point – these “zones” aren’t on at X% and off at X.01%, the benefits start several percent below the lower limit and end several percent above the upper limit. The graphs should really show a set of ramps.

There’s a thread on the TR forums about what constitutes a VO2max interval with one individual being adamant that you have to hold your HR at 90% or more for the entire workout including the recovery intervals!

I find there’s a narrow range of HR values in going from sweet spot to VO2max so it’s quite hard to use that to work in the right zone. Upper end of SS is 94% FTP, that’s 86% MHR for me. top end of VO2max is 120% FTP that’s 90% MHR, just 4% to cover 26% variation in power.

As a counter to all these percentages, can I add for anyone bamboozled by it all that this year I just did bikepacking weekends or long days out, with whole weeks off before and after. In September, with the prospect of a couple of cyclocross races, I spent a few evenings ragging around the woods with my mates.
Was flying come race day.

^ Yeah, I think pretty much the fittest I generally get is from a couple of blocks of 3-4 hard, long days, rest, then flying around the woods for fun on the SS. A proper plan over 6 mths does more but it’s a lot of work for the gains.

But if FTP is ~90% max hr, you’re ‘supposed’ to be able to hold that for 60mins. So 60mins at 85% ‘should’ be doable.

Maybe a well trained rider could. I can (or could) keep a threshold HR for the 30(20) min test when I’ve had a bit of time getting used to the turbo sessions and my LTHR is approx 90% max. I don’t know my real max, but my LTHR and the max I’ve ever hit a couple of times when I’ve tried a long time ago all line up. But 1hr at that level? No chance. FT HR is 4-5% below LT HR, and that would still be a horrible level to stay at for a full hour. Thankfully I’ve never wanted to train for the Hour or 25 mile TTs.
That table says sweetspot is ~85% of my max, at that HR it would be a hard 20-30 mins but doable a couple of times in a training ride.

I’ve done a few 25TTs on our ‘sporting’ course. No idea what my hr was and don’t have a PM .My fastest on a road bike with clip-on bars was somewhere like 71mins (I’m no good!) and I cramped up so badly when I finished I struggled to get home, it was horrendous, I was in agony. I haven’t done one since 😂

I keep rewarding my efforts with beer and chocolate. That’s alright isn’t it…….
If I was to get a HRM for riding out in the real world, is there a go to mid price option? Wahoo Tickr? Not bothered about data saving etc.

My hrm is just a CooSpo one. Ant+ and bluetooth works with zwift, strava and wahoo apps no issue for me. Look to be about £30, but pretty sure I only paid about £20.

Wahoo Tickr?

I’ve been using one for around 4 years. It’s been fine. Happy with it.

I use a Wahoo Tickr armband. I really like it and it’s much less hassle than a chest strap when you inevitably forget to put it on before getting all dressed up to go out.

On the previous page I posted a Dylan Johnson video where he lambasted Zwift’s workouts. He’s just posted one about TrainerRoad’s plans:

Good vid whitestone – I have wondered what sort of absolute beast you would need to be to complete a high volume power build on TR. Think he’s right that the intensity does seem excessive across the board on that platform.

They (TR) could actually rebut that pretty hard depending on what their use data looks like. Say the vast majority of people starting a high volume power plan do in fact complete it then that doesn’t really speak to burn out and overreach. If the majority of people don’t get past three weeks, on the other hand…

I had a look at the high volume plans at the start of lockdown and just couldn’t see that I would have the time to complete them even during lockdown! They don’t really account for having a job and family!

Platform that’s built around indoor trainer workouts advocating for training that’s suited to indoor training shocker.

Haha, I love Dylan Johnson “I like the Trainerroad podcasts… …every so often I even learn something new” 😂

@Garry_lager – TR do state that most people would be best served by following the Low Volume plans, but these of course are effectively three intense sessions per week. They do monitor completion rates, the plans have changed over the years because of this.

I do the LV plans and then add endurance rides at the weekend thus making them essentially a polarised/pyramidal plan which is sort of what he advocates anyway. Yesterday I was out for 5hrs+ but it was Z2 power at most (my HR stayed in Z1 the entire time!).

I think there’s a mixture of promotion and ego involved in all these plans (TR and elsewhere) – why spend money on a turbo trainer and on a training programme/plan if it isn’t stressing you? Sitting at 75% of FTP for a couple of hours probably doesn’t sell well.

@robbo1234biking – when I started on TR I looked at the various levels and just recoiled at the HV plans, they’d cripple me! At 61 I can do the work but need the recovery as well.

Looking at analysis of each of my week’s training over the last six months the majority of them are classed as “Base”* with most of the rest being “Polarised” or “Pyramidal”, only a couple in the last year have been “Threshold”. So even when following a supposed “threshold” plan it rarely turns out that way.

* These are based on the relative proportions of each zone in the three zone model as mentioned in the video so equating with the 7 zone mode: Z1 = Z1 + Z2, Z2 = Z3 + Z4, Z3 = Z5+

Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?

This is something I’ve always experienced bar a single weekend while using power meters since Jan 2018, but besides the recenet STW MTB Series, I do 40min+ efforts quite infrequently. Away from the turbo, I usually like to chase my time/power numbers up the local cat 3/4 hills, which typically take approx 5-17mins to climb at full gas on a good day.

In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively… ~86.5%, which is hell of a gap from 95%. In theory I should be capable of ~291W for an hour, but 273W is my best from Jan 2020, before this post-Covid fatigue hell began.

Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?

Errrr, wibble, dunno.

I’ve never tested it but FTP isn’t absolutely your “hour power” most say it’s anywhere from 45-75mins depending on how well trained at doing such efforts you are.

Irrelevant side note; Dylan seems to like using clips from Francis Cade (UK youtuber and rider) videos in his videos. Noticed them in a few.

In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively…

I’ve been puzzling over this sort of stuff and think it is something to do with your anaerobic capacity, which will still kick in during a 20 minute effort but would be depleted before a 60 minute effort is over?

This is why the procedure for a 20 minute FTP test involves a 5 minute max effort to ‘drain’ the anaerobic contribution.

I noticed Trainerrroad or Trainingpeaks saying that because of this, they’ll actually take 100% of the 20 minute power as being FTP if you have already drained the anaerobic tank with the 5 minute effort before hand.

If your anaerobic capacity was higher then perhaps it makes sense that your 60 minute power is lower than 95% of your 20 minute power.

On which note – how is everyone testing their FTP? Ramp tests? 20 minute test? 20 minute with 5 minute max effort first?

I’ll have to watch that Dylan video later. I did the high volume sweet spot plan and finished it at the end of Jan. It gets really tough at the end but I did see some decent gains going into the Short Power Build phase.

The first two weeks of the high volume short power build plan were pretty horrendous. Literally just scraping through the last intervals and then wondering how on earth I was gonna recover before the next intense workout. I came down with a really bad cold following week 2 and had a good 5 days off the bike completely. I’m just starting to get my legs moving again before thinking about picking up the plan again.

May go for something less intense given I can normally squeeze 15 hours a week or so in.

How did I miss this thread!!!

This is so what I’ve been looking for (although with a little bit of information overload).

Last year was the first year I actually had a plan (loose as it may have been) and I definitely saw a performance increase from myself. I usually just ride as often as available and as hard as I can sustain for the time I have.

So, this year I want to push on from where I left off last year BUT I’ve been struggling with motivation this year. So have only started putting in a concerted effort from February, this puts me at least a month behind others on here. I’m not going to let that worry me too much though.

It’ll take me a while to get through all this but thanks to Whitestone for starting this thread.

Happy training to you all.

@handybendyhendo

Any thoughts on Sufferfest on here?

I just got a KickR Core and think it seems pretty good.

Tried Zwift for a couple of goes but didn’t like the HCI of it.

I’m not into road riding or mega-data analysis – just have a ‘I’m I better than I was’ mindset.

Did the 4DP and had a couple of rides thereafter and the process seems improved as a result of this. Choosing ERG or level is the next conundrum BUT I found they have a chat of when to use what that covers this…….

Personally I prefer Sufferfest to Zwift – I’m not that bothered about racing, and I found the whole Zwift thing slightly “stupid” with its silly tron wheels, underwater tunnels and what have you, while supposedly pretending to simulate real life? Sufferfest also fits into my lifestyle nicely, with lots of shorter workouts that I can do whenever I want.

That said, I’m not 100% convinced it’s a great fit for a structured workout plan – they do offer plans, but I get the feeling they’re not a perfect match. The idea of recovery days etc., for example, don’t really fit in with the idea of “suffering”…

I’ve been on a TR plan for few months – via plan builder. I generate a low or mid vol plan and generally use it as a rough guide – I’ll do one or two intensity sessions from it each week (Tues/ Thurs). The rest of the time I substitute outdoor rides – which are low intensity or a Zwift session that can be anything from tempo for 90 mins to 30 min crit to TTT. So in reality my training is probably more polarised than sweet spot. I’ve made some really big FTP gains recently. I have to say I think Dylan is right – too much intensity within the TR plans. If you listen to their podcasts they do champion the one or two hard session per week approach, just strange that the plans seem harder than this.

I think I also thrive more with one or two TR workouts per week max, and the rest of the time having a more social focus.

As I’ve already pointed out I’m new to structured training and smart trainers- I don’t race, but want to get faster without feeling I should be trying to train every time I go out riding. I’m following an 8wk FTP builder plan from Training Peaks, via RGTcycling. The plan appears to be a polarised/pyramidal blend sort of deal. The week ahead will be week 3 and looks quite heavy, with 3 HIIT sessions and a Tempo/SS, but also 2 rest days and a Z1 easy ride:
Sunday – 2hr Zone 1 Endurance or social ride (got the first hour and a bit in outside today before the gale driven rain set in)
Monday – Rest
Tuesday – Pyramid intervals: 4×15 secs max, 3×1 min 125%, 2x5min 105%. 20 min warm up/10 cool down.
Wednesday – criss cross session – builds up in 2 min blocks from under to over FTP then gradually back down again.
Thursday – Zone 3 + FTP (tempo and S Spot?): 30 mins at 85% and 15 mins at 95%. Two lots with 5 min spin in the middle, giving 2 hr total.
Friday – rest
Saturday – Threshold efforts – intervals building from 1 x 5 mins at 98% to 6x 1 min at 120%. 70 mins total with WU and CD.
Sunday – 2 hr Zone 1/social spin.

The Thursday and Sunday sessions can easily become outdoor rides without any need for power meter or HRM. I’ve ordered a HRM though to get a better feel for zones etc. For anyone just trying out structured training this seems to give a lot of variety and has so far felt quite low stress/volume (which means it’s probably about right – certainly not overtraining).

I suspect, once the weather improves and home schooling ends, I’ll end up doing lots of Z1 riding outdoors, with shorter Z3 sessions once or twice a week indoors (so Polarised as the video above) and then go back to more variety in winter.

How steep are the hills you’re caning @n0b0dy0ftheg0at in a 20 min effort? I’ve always found a big effort on a steepish pitch would give me v flattering power numbers and wouldn’t be something to base training off of. Local to me the Manchester – Holmfirth rd (called Isle of Skye locally) is good for some shock and awe on the power meter.

It must be very biomechanically different in terms of fast / slow twitch if you compare that to riding a flat 25mile TT, say. That is about continual fast inputs to maintain the bike speed around 25mph+, whereas climbing just feels night and day different with a slow twitch grind.

This doesn’t really answer your question as to why 20 / 60 is divergent for you on zwift, but you would rarely see a best 60 min in a zwift race as that would mean riding with no tactics at all. If you think 290 should be right for your ftp then rest up and hit the Alp full monty at that power and see what happens – it’s quite easy to pace with the hairpinned sections giving an avg power for each one.

I’ve just ditched TR in favour of Zwift. TR is I think fantastic if you are really motivated, but you need to have a focus and with racing at any point this year seemingly dubious, I couldn’t see the point. I am loving Zwift at the moment, just going for the race yourself fit adage. Take today, hungover with little time, jumped on a twenty minute crit race and my legs are caning now!

I failed my TR workout today – too hard. Challenging my aerobic fitness. An hour 20 mins just under ftp (320-350w)

Looking at the week ahead there are so many invitations to do group rides and some races on Zwift and RGT that it seems like a better option to me than grinding out a TR plan.

My aim is to go sub 10 hour at the Dirty Reiver in Sept. but my strengths are short Crits.

TBH, 80mins at around FTP probably isn’t the best training for Dirty Reiver, there are some long draggy climbs but being able to “plod” along at 75-80% of FTP will do you more good. I’d work out what RPE something like that is for you and head out for long rides at that intensity and augment them with a couple of short sharp HIIT interval sessions on the trainer to keep the top end.

That’s exactly what I’ve been doing and it seems to be working reasonably well. I’m getting stronger on virtual group rides and TTS. Just hope my trainer is accurate and not flattering me. I’m 86 kg so maintaining power over the event will help with the hills but I will not be able to race it, steady state and qualified efforts at the right time is what I’m aiming for.

@Garry_Lager The hills in Hampshire and West Sussex are often incredibly variable in gradient and that certainly applies to the longest and biggest climb variants that go up Bell Hill just north of Petersfield to the summit on Warren Lane (~3 miles, ~550+ foot climbing).

My memory failed me on it taking nearly 20mins to get up that climb full tilt, it was just over 15mins at an average of 240W, any FTP estimates I’ve obtained outdoors have been over much flatter terrain away from the hills with the exception of managing 300W for 20mins up Cheddar Gorge to Priddy Hill last September.

A vast majority of my estimates have come off 20min+ turbo sessions, whether that be races; TTs; freerides up virtual mountains. But these days especially, once an event goes beyond ~30mins, I have to dial things back to not blow up.

@n0b0dy0ftheg0at – that is a lovely climb that, especially up through the woods past steep.

@ferrals I agree, it’s a nice climb even if the middle “Little Switzerland” section is a bit overhyped, sadly I only went up it once last year as 50+ mile rides from east Southampton were rare after Covid.

Looking forward to extending the climb from Sheet once the weather gets a lot more pleasant than of late!

Take part in science:
Volunteers wanted

Its 20 odd years since I rode there; I remember that the climb on the minor road from ashford past the island being a steep little start. I used to go up the road and then down offroad through the hangers, glorious when dry, less so in winter!

So I’ve finally decided on what direction I want to go in training wise for 2021. After doing some research I’ve put a 4 week training program together. I’m thinking of repeating this again the following four weeks but want to see how my body reacts first.

Mains goals are:
Increase my VO2 max ceiling and increase my FTP whilst also keeping my endurance gains I made last year.

Weekly plan is:

Monday
V02 turbo session for 40 mins

Tuesday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins

Wednesday
Strength and endurance work either on the turbo or hill reps or a single speed mountain bike ride (low cadence 45-65 rpm) for 40-90 mins

Thursday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins

Friday
Sweet spot on the turbo, start at 8 mins and build up to 20 mins efforts for 40 mins

Saturday
10 minute core work and stretching including hips, 10 mins

Sunday
Easier long distance ride for 2-3 hours

I’ll be walking on each rest day as well for about an hour. Also once the gyms and pools open again I’ll add in weights and swimming (like I did last year).

3 turbo sessions a week???? Madman 😀

I’ve decided my safe limit is two (not counting silly easy roller sessions which I’m rapidly going off anyway).

Good luck keeping the singlespeed rides in ‘endurance’ zone, although I’m definitely coming around to the idea of singlespeeding as bike-specific training, after each visit to the Bathgate Alps on the singlespeed I feel a very different sort of ‘all-over’ tired to even the hardest turbo session, I guess singlespeed on hills is very much like doing lower reps of bigger weights.

I’m new to this so I’ll review it after the first 4 week block, wish me luck!

Strength and endurance work either on the turbo or hill reps or a single speed mountain bike

I think your Wednesday would be the one that could trip me up, all three of what you have listed could rapidly become quite hard sessions for me. Using Dylan Johnson’s 10hr plan would put this day in the sort of tempo/sweetspot range which I’ve translated as ‘easy sweetspots on the rollers’ but I still think I’m going too hard.

I’d use your Wednesday to get out on the road bike and do some easy gradual climbs using the heart rate monitor to keep me well within sweetspot range. These usually work out to be quite good rides.

Oh also Mr Johnson also suggests squeezing the Monday/Wednesday sessions into Tuesday/Wednesday, gives you Monday off so you can go harder for your VO2 session

So, in an effort to take one thing of my mind I signed up to TR back in September. Based on my training background I went with the high volume full plan (based on peaking for 2021 races that continually shift). Volume wise I can manage it without too much trouble. What strikes me as weird are:
a) The Ramp test based FTP is lower than my 20min FTP results
b) Every Ramp test result since Sept has resulted in a drop in FTP.
A slight reduction I could accept based on periodisation. I’ve looked back at fatigue levels and see no indications of over training. I’m sticking with TR for now as it does still take my mind of planning my training, gives structure, etc. Plus I’m thinking of the bigger picture i.e. will my physiological profile be better come race day?

Q. Has any long term user of TR come across a similar efect?

Any good tips for loosing weight and keeping it off, especially for those with a sedentary job?

Never use to be a problem for me, I could put on a few kgs if I wasn’t riding much, but i could easily loose it with regular riding. I know a major issue is my job. about 6 years ago I took a more office based job, so most of my time I’m sat on my backside. Since Covid-19 I’ve been home working and don’t really leave the house for much (step count is really low) there are days I hardly leave the house except to walk the dog, but he’s only small and getting on so doesn’t walk very far.

Reducing food intake kind of helps at first, but then i always feel ran down, exhausted and prone to picking up a cold.

Currently over 2 stone heavier than my racing weight. My power numbers have never been the greatest, and the extra weight is making it even harder than it should be.

I know riding more will help, but don’t have the greatest amount of spare time to do so. Usually turbo trainer 3 times during week and get out on bike on Saturday morning and the occasional Sunday

Cheers

A typical training week for me last year was:

Monday
Night 2 hour ride

Tuesday
Night 60 min gym session

Wednesday
Rest day

Thursday
Night Swim 60 mins

Friday
Rest day

Saturday
Morning 2 hours medium/hard effort cycle followed by a 60 easy cycle with the kids.

Sunday
Morning 60 minutes medium effort cycle or gym session. With a longer 3+ hour ride every 2 to 3 weeks.

But if the weather was decent and the evenings light then I have been known to cycle every night. Happy summer times seem like a long time ago now.