Are you training for any particular event @n0b0dy0ftheg0at? Sounds like your immune system has taken a bit of a walloping so I’d be inclined to park the structured stuff and just ride outside freestyle for a bit. Or just spin the turbo watching a cross race on the screen, something like that.

Just parking everything in z1/2 for the winter is out of style AFAIK – you should still do some reg intensity. I just wouldn’t be that arsed about my ftp.

No, nothing in particular in the short term, so I’ll mostly try and simply just build up some gentle-moderate time in the saddle for now and see how things go. Unless the weather is exceptionally good, rides to the South Downs hills will be knocked on the head soon until around March, so cycling will be reduced to commutes and the turbo, but hopefully I’ll pick up some fitness and FTP heading into spring.

Having only started to ride for fitness in Jan ’17 and having access to power meters since Dec ’17, I’ve had this silly goal to do a 316W+ 20mins (for estimated 300+ FTP) from my 4iiii, which I’ve come close to a few times but not since summer ’20. The even wilder goal was a 4W/Kg 20mins+ effort from my 4iiii, but given I’ve gone from ~73Kg in Aug ’17 to putting a load of weight on since Feb ’21 to now be ~84Kg, that one is a non-starter for now and at not far off 48 it’s getting harder to flog my body as hard as I did a few years ago… Not helped at all by numerous setbacks over the past ~16 months.

But I shall see what hapens, once I’ve given my body a bit of time to recover from that ~4.5 week flu bug, today’s first postie shift back at work felt far harder than it should have.

Hmm, thought I’d revive this thread to ask a couple of questions and found I was the last person to post on here! 😆

I’m still snacking too much and I’m struggling to get under 84Kg, but through some fairly regular short Zwift races and the odd TT, I’ve improved my best 20mins to 278W and I’m now able to do ~300-310W for sub 14min 1 lap races… So a bit of positive progress.

https://intervals.icu/ has looked at my sub 20min 1 lap races and has given me an estimated FTP of 295W recently, which is significantly higher than 264W from 95% of that 20min effort in a Zwift TT about a month ago.

Ambitiously overhyped estimate, or do others find their eFTP reasonable?

Anyone found turbo rocker plates have drastically improved their ability to stick out longer turbo sessions? Looking at the Lifeline rocker plate with SALE10 on CRC for ~£160, I’d love to be able to tolerate turbo rides longer than ~75mins, so that 2hr+ outdoor rides aren’t a massive shock come spring.

I’ll add my training question to this revived thread, soz can’t help you @n0b0dy0ftheg0at with your questions!

Anyway, my doubt: like a lot of people my drinking crept up (OK, rocketed) in the run up to Christmas, and with it my resting heart rate (RHR). Dry January is having the hoped-for effect, and it’s now dropped from mid sixties at New Year to mid to high forties this week. The question: what effect does this have on power when I’m out riding? If I’m riding at a steady 140BPM is that the equivalent effort to 155BPM on New Year’s Day? Or is 140 today the same as 140 a month ago?

The simple answer to your question is “how does it feel?”. RPE is often a more effective measure for training. That said, RHR is not linked in that way to aerobic HR. If you were really unfit and that was causing a high RHR then obviously you’d struggle more with training, but here you’ve just dropped the amount of cortisol in your body.

I’m still snacking too much and I’m struggling to get under 84Kg

download and use my fitness pal, when I lost a good chunk of weight a few years ago it helped get those last couple of kg’s off, with regards to snacking, there would be time Id fancy something mid afternoon and then when going to log it in the app being put off due to how many calories it was! Although it did open my eyes to other things I could snack on which were healthier but just as filling.

When telling the app how much you wanna lose dont go mad and get given a huge calorie deficit to hit, my target for each day was 2100 plus exercise which did me fine and got those last couple of kg’s off, overall I went from 87ish to 79 over several months with MFP helping for the last few I couldnt shift

I was thinking about this thread the other day, I should probably join in. I entered an off-road tri in Aviemore in September, so I need to get working on my swimming and running obvs. So I planned a week including two runs, one swim, two Zwift races and one longer ride. The aim is to do three weeks of that and one rest week.

I’m bad at running so my runs are currently just base miles, so it goes like this:

Mon – rest
Tue – Zwift race
Wed – 5km (ish) run
Thur – Zwift TTT
Fri – Swim
Sat – 10km ish run
Sun – long slow road ride 3hrs ish

I’ve done three of these weeks and it’s now rest week, and amazingly I’ve done every single workout which is something I’ve never managed before. The results are as follows:

Garmin estiamted cycling VO2 max 48 -> 53
Garmin estimated running VO2 max 45 -> 46
Weight – steady
Zwift FTP – no change, due to race tactics and pacing
Garmin training load around 1050 (whereas. before it was usually at about 300!)

I realised this was a big increase in load so I ate whatever, and it meant I could keep going and recovering. My legs were generally ok, I really surprised myself how well I could recover. But towards the end of last week it started to get systemically tough, rather than aching muscles.

My average and max has plummeted during Zwift even though my average power has stayed broadly flat. I think this is due to gains in aerobic capacity being offset by increasing muscle fatigue. I’m going to do an FTP test on say Thursday or Friday and hopefully I can get a better result.

My running has got slightly quicker but much much easier, which is the plan at this stage – and my average HR there has gone way down.

My swimming is still physically really weak. I can swim well and efficiently for about 4 length then it starts to go to pot as I get tired. I need to do 1km for the tri. But there’s plenty of time.

The plan is to do another three of these 3 week blocks and try and control the eating to get the weight down and get used to the load. Then I might bring in running speed work, and I’m considering ditching the Zwift racing for some specific training intervals because whilst it’s good for VO2 max and motivation (racing with a team) I don’t think it’s the best training possible. Particularly the TTTs as I seem to be improving quicker than my team mates so I am not going flat out any more.

It’s been a really interesting experience so far. Since giving up on racing a decade or more ago I’ve been trying to diet and lose weight – and failing. But it’s great to see how I’ve responded to lots of training with plenty of fuel. But the weigh still needs to come down eventually.

The question: what effect does this have on power when I’m out riding?

AIUI it doens’t. Your heart hasn’t become less efficient. Your heart responds to the needs your body places on it. So if you drink, that can make RHR go up but when you exercise it is working on getting oxygen in and CO2 out, and those things are still the same. So unless it’s changed size, it will still pump the same rate to get the same amount of blood around your body.

My swimming is still physically really weak. I can swim well and efficiently for about 4 length then it starts to go to pot as I get tired. I need to do 1km for the tri. But there’s plenty of time.

I got back in the pool this month after years out of it, once a week was not cutting it for me so I now do 2 swims minimum per week, 3 is the aim per week and its finally clicking back, when I saying clicking back its fitness, technique and technique when fatigued which was/is missing. I’d add another swim if possible to your week, potentially even on that rest day.

Running wise and intervals, you could change your 5km run to a warm up, intervals then cool down, also changing your 10km run so you run slightly slower pace, then every 3 or 4 weeks go and run the race distance to check for improvements.

I assume you’re a decent cyclist from the cycling work you are doing, maybe consider dropping one of those session per week to fit that extra swim or another run in.

technique when fatigued

Yeah this is it. I am considering another swim. But in terms of triathlon with a 1km swim, the difference between swimming 2.00/100m and 1.40/100m is only just over three minutes which is not that much in a 2.5hr event, and would require a big training commitment. So there’s an argument that the swimming training is less value for money, so to speak. And it’s the one I enjoy least; and it’s also the one I have to pay to do! The run is 10km, and putting the effort in there could realistically see me go from 1hr to 50 mins, and that would save more time overall.

Re the running, yes I will move to intervals later in the year. My current aim is to be able to run 10km regardless of speed without being sore for 3 days afterwards which seems to be happening now.

Re dropping a bike ride – this makes sense – the reason for doing two currently during the week is that I’m in a team that does two, and that is a key factor in motivation over the winter months. I’ll change the plan in the spring since I won’t want to be Zwifting and I’ll want to do some outdoor riding and MTBing which will change things a fair bit. For this to be sustainable it has to be either enjoyable or easy to fit in.

I am considering another swim. But in terms of triathlon with a 1km swim, the difference between swimming 2.00/100m and 1.40/100m is only just over three minutes which is not that much in a 2.5hr event, and would require a big training commitment.

You definitely need another swim, you won’t be doing 2:00/100m if you’re getting knackered after just 4 lengths. Obviously you’re not aiming to be one of the first out of the water, but you do need to get out reasonably fresh. Lose the rest day and get a swim in, if you can.

You definitely need another swim, you won’t be doing 2:00/100m if you’re getting knackered after just 4 lengths.

I usually do 2m15 in the sea on holiday, averaged out over 8-900m with breaks, without doing any other swimming at all. So I think 2.00 is a reasonable target. I’ll see how it goes and add another swim in if I think I need it. I’m targetting 2.00. I can’t lose the rest day though. I can swim fine at that sort of pace it just needs breaks of 30s or so, or a couple of lengths of breast stroke. That’s what I’m trying to eliminate.

But I’ve also been concentrating on legs in the last 3 swims, which makes me more tired but might not be wise, I’m not sure. I have purchased a pull buoy.

Next time I go I will try 4x200m rather than try to swim straight through.

I’ve been building my distance up by doing intervals, started at 4 lengths x 4 then went, 4 lengths x 6, 6 x 6, 8 x 4, 16 x 2, 20 x 2. When doing the short intervals I was doing 1:48/100m, now I am up doing longer distances I am at 2:00/100m. 122 seconds isnt a lot to lose when you consider the times for the bike and run, but to be feeling fresh coming out the water would be very useful IMO.

I’ve never trained with a pull buoy or fins/paddles, just build up my distance and really concentrate on my breathing technique, even more so when fatigued, I find that when fatigued, my arms get lazy and when I go to breath on the weaker side when bi breathing I’ll miss the pocket and take in water rather then air.

https://intervals.icu/ has looked at my sub 20min 1 lap races and has given me an estimated FTP of 295W recently, which is significantly higher than 264W from 95% of that 20min effort in a Zwift TT about a month ago.

I think intervals.icu calculates eFTP off one recent max effort, guessing they maybe apply an average power curve anchored at that point an read from that?

Mine seems artificially high at the moment and I’m not really sure which effort it’s approximated from, WKO on the other hand uses 3 recent efforts (short, medium and long durations) which is coming out much more realistic.

Maybe if you’ve done a short max effort recently (highly probable in a Zwift race) and you’re more of a short power type than a TT’er then could explain it?

@oikeith that sounds promising, I was thinking that was a good approach. Reading about swimming training is so overwhelming – I don’t really care that much, what I want is a simple route to get up to 1km without much faff.

I fatigue quite quickly but I can still swim, my technique is just much worse and I stop mostly out of frustration.

@molgrips

That sounds quite hardcore in terms of load – but are Zwift races the best way for cycling training (I’m no expert – I’m new at more formal training and dabbling with Trainer Road structured plans)?

I’m thinking about a sprint triathlon later in the season if I can get my running and swimming up to scratch. I can happily swim a mile in the pool (which I do twice a week most weeks) non-stop but I’m terrible at front crawl so it’s mostly breast stroke. I have a bit of a fear about head in the water for whatever reason so I panic a bit sometimes when trying front crawl. I also struggle with goggles that are waterproof without being ludicrously tight – a point I think I’ve now got sussed.

In terms of swim training for triathlon I guess you want arms to take as much of the strain as you can given your legs are them going to cycle and run?

Yeah I agree, I start reading about drills you could do, but I was slightly time poor so didn’t bother doing them.

Did my first 20 lengths x 2 today at lunchtime, longest intervals and overall swim to recent date, I was wounded at the end of the second 20 lengths but managed to stick with it.

Something which has also just come to mind, the Aviemore tri is a open water swim, I assume this is with a mass start, if you suddenly go from freestyle to granny breaststroke you’re likely to get run over and get a few whacks from passing swimmers. To avoid this you could swim on the edge of the pack but this would then potentially add extra distance to your swim pending how wide you take the turns by the buoys, you could look to yoyo off the back, but then you might get slowed down by the other back markers, so getting a better swimmer will help you swim quicker but then also potentially avoid any further delays when in the water

I also struggle with goggles that are waterproof without being ludicrously tight – a point I think I’ve now got sussed.

I ended up with zoggs predators, the larger eye pieces mean I dont need to do them up as tight.

In terms of swim training for triathlon I guess you want arms to take as much of the strain as you can given your legs are them going to cycle and run?

If I remember correctly, advice is to do some good kicking towards the end of the swim to get the blood flowing to aid getting into transition and onto the bike.

I’ve ended up with some Magic 5 goggles. Managed to wear them for the full 70 lengths (25m pool) I did last night so I’m now good on that front. I have very deep set eyes and getting a good fit has been a struggle – tried 3 or 4 different pairs before these!

Next is cracking front crawl breathing without panicking….

Magic 5 goggles

I’ve not seen or heard of them before and now I want a pair!

Question for those using Zwift to do a training plan, does Zwift direct you whether you should be sat or stood during a session?

are Zwift races the best way for cycling training

Well, depends what you mean by ‘best’ doesn’t it?

The races (as opposed to TTT) for me represent good VO2 max training, I think, based on what I end up doing during them. The TTTs I’m not sure. But they are a good blast of high intensity generally, I’m motivated to do them and to try hard, and crucially they are short enough that they don’t take a lot out of me. I don’t know what effect they have on my FTP as I don’t test regularly. I am considering dropping the TTT for a crit race or maybe just a focused interval session as I suspect that they are getting towards junk training currently, on the flat ones. The hilly ones I’m not sure about.

Question for those using Zwift to do a training plan, does Zwift direct you whether you should be sat or stood during a session?

They do, but workouts where you are instructed to get out of the saddle are very rare from ones I’ve done. I did https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift-racing/week-6-2-leg-openers and it suggesting getting out of the saddle for the first half of the final two sprints, but I didn’t bother (110rpm cadence isn’t that extreme for me).

As much as I want to lose the excess weight I’ve put on especially over the last 12 months, my restraint is awful in the winter months, as is common for those like myself with SAD that often crave carbs in any form.

I really need to do a FTP test and see if intervals.icu is right in thinking it’s now close to 295W rather than the 264W. I’ve ridden everyday since 2nd Nov, just after my ~3.5 week flu in October, up until Xmas it was a lot of z1/2 with usually just one sub 40min “Oh Crit” race per week. Since early Jan, I’ve typically been doing three sub 15min Team Electric Spirit sprint races each week along with plenty of z1/2 and my race power average has improved ~20W… But whether I could flog myself at that pace from ~14mins to 20mins at over 300W is the big question. I’ve not done 20mins+ at z4+ since I started these lunchtime sprints.

Intervals.icu is set on a max effort of 5mins minimum by default, your estimated FTP is extrapolated from a typical power curve anchored on a recent workout/Zwift race etc.

If you’ve been doing lots of short sharp efforts then your modelled number may not be close to what you can currently achieve using the 20 minute format – depends a little on your rider type.

You could try going to settings and increasing the miniumum duration for eFTP, knock it up to 15 minutes perhaps? May give you a more realistic 20m target until you’ve trained more at longer durations.

are Zwift races the best way for cycling training

Realistically, no. AFAIK no pro cyclist or triathlete is using weekday Zwift racing as a training strategy. But that said, presumably no one here is a pro, and none of us are relying on race results to pay the mortgage. Zwift races are obviously a lot more productive than couch surfing, and if you enjoy them, why not? Perhaps a targetted plan would get better results, but you’ll have to decide how much that really matters to you 🙂

Reading about swimming training is so overwhelming – I don’t really care that much, what I want is a simple route to get up to 1km without much faff.

There isn’t a simple route to get up to 1km swimming, at least not if you want to do it reasonably well. Swimming is 80% technique / 20% fitness, and that technique is a right pain to learn. Youtube videos will give you some decent pointers, but really the only way to actually get better is to take classes. But again, we’re not pros here, and if your aim is just to get to the end before cutoff you could probably just do the last 500m breaststroke.

But again, we’re not pros here, and if your aim is just to get to the end before cutoff you could probably just do the last 500m breaststroke.

Yeah, I just want to be able to do the event reasonably well. The target I’ve set myself is to do it all crawl without pausing, and the stretch goal is 20 minutes.

Zwift races are obviously a lot more productive than couch surfing, and if you enjoy them, why not?

Yes, and in my experience they are also much more productive than an evening 60-90 min spin on a local ride. Because they are higher intensity. I can’t keep up that intensity on a normal ride with traffic, urban roads and descents and everything, but all the time I’m negotiating that stuff adds fatigue and body load without any specific training benefit. So whilst not perfect it has value.

And of course, the best workout is the one you don’t put off because you are lazy, and my races are team events so that is a key factor.

There’s also the motivation element for a Zwift race against a structured session…

Yeah, I just want to be able to do the event reasonably well. The target I’ve set myself is to do it all crawl without pausing, and the stretch goal is 20 minutes.

I’ve swam twice a week through Jan and have just hit 1000m, but doing 2 x 500 and my times are in the 22mins, I reckon another month to get my 1000m to around 20mins, going back to your previous post about plan, def get the second or more swim session in!

A poor result on my first FTP test for ages. My FTP appears to have gone down, but my average HR for that kind of effort has also gone down. It looks like the zwift racing I’ve been doing has improved my VO2 max but not my muscular strength so my heart is easily getting oxygen to my muscles but they cannot pedal hard enough to stress it as much.

It’s as if I’ve months of base riding into one month of Zwift. So I think I’m going to drop the Thursday TTT for a high intensity interval session.

Molgrips if you want muscular endurance this early post base you may just look at some Z3 rather than high intensity, and if you really want to build it fast lower the cadence e.g mid z3 at 65rpm on a turbo will feel like climbing a 1-3% gradient.

Just picking up on this one again – just coming to the end of the sweet spot training part of a trainer road training plan. Aiming for end of June when I have a 3 day mtb long weekend in South Wales.

In particular this training plan seems to be working better than previous ones. I think I came out of the winter a lot lighter than last winter (84kgs vs 77kgs) knocked off 2 kgs of Christmas excess and now sticking around a stable weight of 75kgs (I’m 5’9 but dabble with weight training as well so I don’t have an upper body like Chris Froome).

Presumably this is a better base to push power / stamina up than when you’re both trying to lose weight and get decent training in.

The sweet spot seems to have given me a better ability to keep a higher cadence on road bike commuting whilst still putting out what feels like decent power. In terms of mtb I can push harder for longer on parts of the trail – plus climbing is definitely easier. Mtb performance is definitely my priority.

I’ve got a week next week of much lower effort turbo sessions before going into a block with a lot of vo2 workouts in there. Are they to build peak power effectively – with the sweet spot having built a bit of a base?

Yep, sweetspot just replaces traditional base – it’s considered more practical for those with families, jobs etc. who may not have time to put in hours of low aerobic.

Ah right – it’s definitely more practical thats for sure. I can grab 45 mins to an hour several days a week for sweet spot – but couldn’t find time to do hours and hours of Z2 style training. Previously (before having a family) I had more time for riding but I don’t think I ever got to feeling as good on the bike as I do know with a more focused plan.

Scanned thru the recent posts on this page and can’t see anyone that has answered the rocker plate question from a few months ago. I have just got one and yes it was expensive but I have gone from training for an hour and having coccyx pain to doing 2 hours with no problems apart from my fitness!!. Got a side to side and forward back plate and it feels odd at first but now feels very natural. Hopefully will help push my fitness as I can jump on and do the base miles cos when I’m outside I go a lot harder than I should.

The plates are a game changer if your trainer lacks any sort of flex. @teamslug how are you getting on with it?

Can I hit you lot with a bit of a left field question?
I don’t have access to my turbo at the moment however I do have a gym with a concept 2 rower. How transferable do you think intervals on the rowing machine will be for mountainbiking? Does anyone have any suggested sessions?
I can run a few times a week to keep up my ploddy base fitness but despise running intervals so in my head thats when I’d like to use the rower. I had a go at an interval session the other day and it seemed like a good workout, something like 5x 1000m efforts with 2min rests and I was quite cooked at the end. I’m still not 100% sure how it works though!

I set the lever to the middle, 5 or 6, I’d read that this doesn’t make any difference to the resistance or the distance calculation but don’t quite understand how all the inputs work together? I was doing the 1000m intervals at about 2:00min/500m pace, to go faster do I need to up the stroke speed or push harder? or either?
Cheers for any help

First thing to know is that Concept2 adjustment is not resistance / power adjustment: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-general-info/damper-setting-101
For VO2max capacity the rowing will transfer quite well to cycling. One thing to look for is ensuring good posture when rowing as in general cyclists strength is mostly in legs.

My first ever successful FTP test! 😁

Have attempted maybe three previously but always paced them wrong and never managed the full 20.

This time I limped over the line with snot dangling from my nose and sweat pouring off me, so I’ll consider that well paced! 😎

Only problem is I did it on a set of rollers. I have the power curve for the rollers so I know my pace of 28km/h should in theory equal a power of 337W or FTP of 320W, but I also know I’m absolutely NOT that strong, so I’m guessing the curve was developed by a heavier rider or someone with softer tyres or a less well waxed chain 🙄

Either way, I know what virtual power to train to now, even if I don’t know my *actual* FTP (although being distanced on the CX course over an hour by a guy averaging 250W should give me a hint ☹️)

Mega-bump!

Ignoring my post above (10 months old now anyway, lots of viral water under the bridge since then 🙄) I’m now eyeing up 2024 events and potentially a multi-day European adventure in September.

Before then though I’ll have the opportunity to take 4 or maybe even 5 days to do a wee mini-tour in Scotland, ostensibly to take in some amazing looking roads I’ve seen around Kyle of Lochalsh etc.

Just wondering how best to incorporate three or four days touring miles into a training plan. I was thinking doing them three months out (e.g. May time) to top up my winter/spring base training before really getting into a summer of more high intensity hill reps and shorter weekend rides, before doing a couple more ‘big’ days in the run up to the September event.

I’ve not seen many articles about how to utilise a week long endurance block properly, anyone any tips or suggestions?

Ta

I was going to start another thread but this resurrection seems timely.

I started a new job about a year ago and my commute dropped from 10km to 2.5km.  I really noticed this year that my mountain biking has suffered.

I do weight training 5 days a week (little and often) and mountain bike at the weekend.  I feel great for the first hour but then it just seems like my body feels terrible.  I also feel pretty shit the next day.

I’m guessing that I wasn’t really appreciating the benefit that 50 minutes of daily low effort commuting was giving me so I’ve started trying to figure out how to recreate that and discovered I was probably doing 4-5 hours of zone 2 training per week with my commuting which is now no longer there.

One thing I’m not sure about though is when they say 80% of your training should be zone 2.  Between the weight training (4-5 hours) and the mtb (3-4 hours) per week, that would mean I’d need to do between 35 and 45 hours of zone 2 training per week.  Which seems a bit excessive.

So, is there anywhere that gives guidance on the amount and best way of adding zone 2 training for people who are already doing a lot of high intensity exercise?

My plan is to add a couple of 2 hour zone 2 road rides in each week as that should more or less replace the commuting I used to do but I wonder if there is a better strategy?

I believe the 80/20 rule refers to the actual sessions rather than the total time. I.e. if you’re doing 5 sessions a week, one should be really hard, and the other four should be easy.

OK, but isn’t just that another way of stating the same problem.  If I go by the ‘best practice’ I’m looking at finding time for 35 zone 2 sessions a week.

I’m trying to find guidance for people who are already doing a lot of high intensity work.