I’ve no experience with PHEVs. Why is this? More braking that’s not regenerative? With a BEV your around town consumption is likely to be near enough as low as your 60mph consumption, I reckon. Worse because more regen braking, which has its inefficiency, better on drag.

Around town I have the regen braking turned right up but it’s a long way off one pedal driving.

eh? assuming 45mpg (its a hybrid), you get 360miles petrol range, plus whatever the electric gives you (20 miles?) – plus ‘filling it up’ is a 5 minute stop. to only get 220 miles range you would have to be averaging 25mpg..

From that Autoexpress long term review I mentioned

Longer journeys mean the petrol engine is working hard, which ensures it’s not that economical when there’s no electricity left to help out, especially as it has to carry around the 150kg extra weight of a battery and electric motor. On petrol power alone, the MINI will manage around 35mpg.

Fitting all of that extra hardware has also meant the fuel tank has been shrunk to make room, with the capacity going down from 51 litres to 36 litres. As a result, those longer journeys are a bit of a chore – on a recent long haul we had to fill up twice in one day as the range dips down to 220 miles. Add in the need to plug in, too, and it all starts to seem like an inconvenience.

220 miles at 35 mpg means he was using 28.5 litres out of the 36 litre tank so not running on fumes before filling up. Also on a long road trip unless you stop to charge up the battery as well you lose any hybrid fuel consumption electric range after the first 20-30 miles.

It could be because the Merc PHEV has an 8 speed box which keeps the power consumption down (as it would do with revs on an ICE engine),

No, I don’t think so. ICEs need gearboxes as they can only operate over a narrow speed range, and the more gears they have the more they are able to keep the engine at its optimum speed which is a function of a quite a few things all of which have other effects.

EVs on the other hand don’t have them because they don’t need them. They can operate at any speed more or less up to a maximum which is probably determined by how much power the inverter can deliver at maximum frequency and still have the motor stay in sync, I don’t know. The efficiency (as far as I know) is determined by the amount of heat lost in the wiring, and the more current is flowing the more heat is generated. The amount of current flowing depends on how much torque you have requested (again afaik) which is not dependent on the speed of the engine.

Also on a long road trip unless you stop to charge up the battery as well you lose any hybrid fuel consumption electric range after the first 20-30 miles.

I don’t think they just chew through the battery then start on the ICE unless you ask them to. It should function as a non-PHEV hybrid, recovering wasted energy from the engine and braking etc whilst keeping the battery charge.

Alright, but in 15 years time when there are old cars knocking around with 3-4 owners and people are buying privately it’s going to be a right pain when you can’t depend on decent battery condition, and there are going to be many more cars getting trashed because the batteries were trashed by some uncaring or unknowing person abusing their 12 year old car.

Fair enough but I think this concern can be tempered a bit-
– you can get a report on battery capacity at any time, so a buyer should know what they’re getting
– also my understanding is that by the time we get to significant degradation, even from heavy users of superchargers to high charge percentage, we’re talking well over 100k miles. Maybe even double that.

Model Ss have been about since about 2012 so there are now loads of pretty high mileage ones knocking around in the USA. Accepted these were probably better treated by their early adopter wealthy middle aged climate concerned buyers than your average car but it’s still getting us to some significant data.

So it’s certainly a thing but I put it in broadly the same box as the kind of behaviour that’s always been able to harm an ICE car.

If I were buying, I’d get a used 38kWh Ioniq (190 mile range) for £15k unless I were rich in which case I’d get an iD4 based on the paper specs.

Where are you seeing used 38kWh Ioniqs at this price? I’ve been keeping an eye on these now and again each time something breaks on the car (53 plate so not lasting much longer). I don’t think I’ve even seen the 28kWh at this price never mind the 38kWh.

Hardly any 28 at that money, seen a few higher miles ones at that.

38 starts around £22k.

Any views or alternatives for a Mini Countryman PHEV?

Renault Capture PHEV. Superb bit of kit with a comfortable ride.

No, I don’t think so. ICEs need gearboxes as they can only operate over a narrow speed range, and the more gears they have the more they are able to keep the engine at its optimum speed which is a function of a quite a few things all of which have other effects.

Don’t know then. You’ve got me doubting myself, so I’ll keep an eye on the consumption next time I’ve done a town run.

I don’t think they just chew through the battery then start on the ICE unless you ask them to. It should function as a non-PHEV hybrid, recovering wasted energy from the engine and braking etc whilst keeping the battery charge.

This. The battery will recharge on braking and deceleration, plus a certain amount of mileage can be covered “gliding” of course.

If I’m out on a long run, I’ll put the journey into the Sat Nav and let the car decide what engine to use. It always defaults to electric mode in traffic and in towns. There is also a battery save option that will keep the battery at the current level, when selected, which I’ve used a bit. ( ICE cruising on the motorway or in country lanes, electric in town and traffic)

A woman at work has a Mini Countryman PHEV. Not a massive petrol tank and small electric range but she likes it.

Would have liked one myself but wasn’t sure they would be on the list when my car lease came up so when I had the chance to change mine early for full-electric I went for that option instead. I would have loved a fully electric Mini but the range is impractical for what I wanted.

I’ve had a Renault Captur PHEV for 8 months now. Average MPG of 115 with a mixture of driving conditions over a tank full. 60 MPG with no plugging-in. 49 mpg while towing a 400kg car on an “A” frame over 300 mile journey. It uses 2nd and 4th gear of the automated constant mesh manual gearbox. I very rarely use the brakes as the regenerative braking is very good if left in the “braking” mode.

I don’t think they just chew through the battery then start on the ICE unless you ask them to. It should function as a non-PHEV hybrid, recovering wasted energy from the engine and braking etc whilst keeping the battery charge.

My only experience of a PHEV is a Mercedes 330e I had for a few months. It would just chew through the battery at low speed unless you went onto a fast A-road or motorway when the ICE would kick in straight away but even then the battery depleted quite quickly despite it having a bit of regen. It actually never allowed the traction battery to fully deplete and kept a few % back I guess to help the ICE up hills or under acceleration. In mixed driving with the journey being longer than the battery’s range the real world fuel consumption of PHEV’s is wildly less than their official consumption figures.

I’ve worked out I get around 40 mpg on a motorway journey with the ICE, being assisted by the motor. Not great compared to a diesel, but better than my last car (BMW 320i).

I don’t think they just chew through the battery then start on the ICE unless you ask them to.

yep, “makes the Countryman PHEV the first rear-wheel-drive MINI when in ‘Max eDrive’ mode, which allows all-electric driving at speeds up to 78mph. Auto eDrive prioritises battery power below 50mph, but acts more like a hybrid, with the petrol engine chiming in for bursts of acceleration. There’s also a setting to favour the petrol engine and save battery power, coming in handy if you plan to visit an urban area later in your trip.”

I’ll take a look at the Captur, thanks

Just to add my 2p to the discussion about battery life as EV usage progresses

Fair enough but I think this concern can be tempered a bit-
– you can get a report on battery capacity at any time, so a buyer should know what they’re getting
– also my understanding is that by the time we get to significant degradation, even from heavy users of superchargers to high charge percentage, we’re talking well over 100k miles. Maybe even double that.

There is a third effect – as engineering and materials knowledge progresses, the design margins become more and more well understood. As a design and technology lifecycle progresses, the value engineers get to work, removing that excess value (or adding it, depending on your point of view), meaning that products will get closer and closer to the actual lifecycle specified. For example – the first cars on the road are still working, and will probably continue to do so as long as someone has a lathe. I doubt that most, maybe even any, cars made today will last 100 years.

It’s the same effect as “they don’t make them like they used to”. No, they don’t, and in some ways, because they know better. That is, they know how to achieve the same result for less raw materials and effort.

To make it more relevant to this thread – there’s a good chance that the early EVs were over-engineered, and as designs progress, they will get cheaper, but have less in the way of margin for excess battery life.

I might consider a PHEV to replace the Passat, due to towing requirements. But then, it hardly ever needs to do town driving so there’s probably little point.

Where are you seeing used 38kWh Ioniqs at this price?

You’re right, the cheaper ones are all 28s. I did a quick flick through Autotrader at some point a while back. Cheapest 28 on there now seems to be £13.5k

also my understanding is that by the time we get to significant degradation, even from heavy users of superchargers to high charge percentage, we’re talking well over 100k miles. Maybe even double that.

Yeah but battery aside, the contents of an EV should last yonks. It might be that Teslas last 15 years like you expect your ICE car to last, but maybe Hyundais will last 25 years. Certainly longer life is possible with an EV.

EVs will become much cheaper over time due to economies of scale with battery manufacturing. It is said that when batteries get to $100/kWh the cars will cost the same as the equivalent ICE car:

There is a third effect – as engineering and materials knowledge progresses, the design margins become more and more well understood. As a design and technology lifecycle progresses, the value engineers get to work, removing that excess value (or adding it, depending on your point of view), meaning that products will get closer and closer to the actual lifecycle specified….

Fair point. Itse also the case that some of the early models of EV suffered pretty bad battery degradation (early Nissan Leaf?) while others did not. Anecdotally that was about battery heat management. Until 2019 Tesla had a service schedule that included quite expensive regular checking of the battery cooling fluid/systems, which to my eyes negated the oft quoted EV benefit of minimal servicing cost. They then dropped this having apparently found/proved it unnecessary. Another quirk about tesla is their habit of using their customers to test things. Clearly a riskier proposition from the customer’s perspective but there are also benefits. I guess this one goes hand in hand with the small battery buffers.

Yeah but battery aside, the contents of an EV should last yonks. It might be that Teslas last 15 years like you expect your ICE car to last, but maybe Hyundais will last 25 years. Certainly longer life is possible with an EV.

I think logically so but I’m not going to hang my hat on it for my first one! But if I do 300k miles in this car it will end up remarkably good value despite its bonkers purchase price. It’ll look like one of those rat cars by then though. Back to tesla build quality…

Anecdotally that was about battery heat management.

It’s cos the battery was air cooled, and that couldn’t cool it enough or warm it enough when required. Modern cars have heat pumps so that the battery is always at optimum temperature, and it also can be used for cabin heating much more efficiently. It’ll be interesting to see what happens this winter in our car. The morning commutes however won’t be too bad as it warms the battery (and cabin) whilst plugged in.

It’ll look like one of those rat cars by then though.

They all will – car interiors, seats, carpets, switches and the like start to break after 15 years. The lumbar adjustement on my Passat for example doesn’t work, and some of the display is going on the stereo.

Voltaire the ID3 is home now and is meeting Evangeline the T5.
Looking forward to this electric adventure; it feels very 21st century!

In mixed driving with the journey being longer than the battery’s range the real world fuel consumption of PHEV’s is wildly less than their official consumption figures.

PHEVs are an “engineering solution” so that automakers can economically continue producing cars with ever-tighter Euro emissions regulations, and will result in the vast majority of new cars in the near future lugging around a heavy and useless pile of electronics, using an over-stressed small petrol engine. Change my mind!

Enjoy Lister.

Mine has been loving this hot weather the range has jumped right up.

Must agree with Drac, EV’s love this warm weather, mine charged to 266 miles today 😀

The cost for electric car batteries is below $100 per kWh now , so yes, they are now cheaper to buy than an equivalent ICE car now in some countries. Why do you think Tesla, Polestar and Kia can cut their purchase prices by 20% and still make money?

Re. battery life , I used to have a link, and am looking for it, to a story about a couple of Telas that had been used for rental and were on over 300,000 miles already…. 9-10% batter wear. I can live with that. There are so many 2015 scare stories still doing the rounds.

PHEVs are an “engineering solution” so that automakers can economically continue producing cars with ever-tighter Euro emissions regulations, and will result in the vast majority of new cars in the near future lugging around a heavy and useless pile of electronics, using an over-stressed small petrol engine. Change my mind!

Can’t disagree. Mrs S picked up the nearly new Countryman PHEV on Friday and its just under 300kg heavier than the equivalent petrol version. But, she loves it and as we all know a happy wife=a happy life.

Although she did get a bit of a shock when she taxed it and it cost her £480 as the list price new was over £40k – for a mini FFS!

She could have had a Model 3 or Mach E for £40k!

PHEVs are an “engineering solution”

Not sure what you mean by this. PHEVs are petrol/diesel cars but with a battery for all those short trips where it’s much more efficient. Surely it’s that simple?

PHEVs are an “engineering solution”

When you’re running on battery you’re lugging a heavy engine, gearbox and fuel tank around (I know that in these applications the drive is still going through the gearbox but the electric motor only needs a simple single speed gearbox).

When you’re running on petrol/diesel you’re lugging a heavy battery and electric motor around.

Drag, weight and friction are the enemies of efficiency – PHEVs have a weight penalty compared to either pure petrol/diesel or battery.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Simplest description is that they are a hack or bodge. They offer no advantage over a pure ev or ice car. About their only benefit is as a hand holding device from ice to ev (or as a tax avoidance scam).

I never understood why range extended models didn’t take off. By relegating the ice part to purely a generator looks on paper like a good idea. Can be very small as does not need to be able to supply enough for the instantaneous demands of the motor, just enough to be averaging more in the is going out.

PHEVs are used by the legacy manufacturers to game the regs and allow them to milk the ICE for a few more years.

Not sure what you mean by this. PHEVs are petrol/diesel cars but with a battery for all those short trips where it’s much more efficient. Surely it’s that simple?

But for those short trips you’re carrying essentially 200-250kg of engine, gearbox, fuel which you don’t need. Likewise when you’re running on dino-juice, you’re carrying around over 300kg of almost useless HV unit, cables, motor, batteries. It’s like loading your car up with your entire family and their requirements for a 2 week holiday for every small journey. Also, the motors are not efficiently sized for the vehicle, the’re another compromise, so use more power than a proper EV.

Even the newest Mercedes Hybrids have a 16kWh battery pack and yet return only 20 miles of real world range on electric power. My i3 has a 33kWh battery (2x the size) and does around 140 miles (7x the range). It too has an engine (Range extender) but it only weighs 90kg inc fuel and can give the car around another 90 miles of range from 9litres of fuel, so 45mpg.

When you’re running on battery you’re lugging a heavy engine, gearbox and fuel tank around (I know that in these applications the drive is still going through the gearbox but the electric motor only needs a simple single speed gearbox).

When you’re running on petrol/diesel you’re lugging a heavy battery and electric motor around.

Drag, weight and friction are the enemies of efficiency – PHEVs have a weight penalty compared to either pure petrol/diesel or battery.

this is demonstratably untrue. An XC40 is available with battery, phev or internal combustion.

The diesel weighs 1700kg, the phev is 1750kg (smaller, simpler engine takes the weight penalty down) and the electric is 2150kg.

The PHEV is thus a 400kg and £10k better solution than pure electric, plus if you mostly do shorter journeys, it is more efficient (due to less weight) than a pure electric version, as well as better for the environment, and more convinient to top-up when a very long journey (>300 miles) is needed.

if you’re doing 200 miles a day, it obviously suffers, but the vast majority of users are not in that bucket. Yes its an “engineering solution” – a well engineered compromise that optimises cost, efficiency and weight.

this is demonstratably untrue.

Only if you’re not comparing apples to apples. You’re comparing the heaviest Diesel Engined XC40 to the lightest spec Recharge.

A correct comparison would be:

Volvo XC40 T3 @ 1550kg. Volvo XC 40 Recharge T3 @ 1812kg… so 260kg.

Mitsubishi Outlander Phev (19-21) – 4c 2.0l petrol – 1395kg. 4c 2.0l Petrol Phev – 1810kg – over 400kg!

The upcoming Cupra alternative to the ID3 is a bit of a looker. Not much to beat compared to the ID3 though.

link

The new Kia EV6 GT looks blummin impressive. 300 mile range, 7 year warranty, 0-60 in 3.3s,

Yep Kia based on same platform and tech as that Hyundai ioniq 5 which has just won a car of the year award. These are really getting close to tesla now (with better looks!) and as more networks of high powered chargers are being deployed quickly, the advantage tesla have gets smaller in my mind. These are miles ahead of the VW group’s offerings in my list- range efficiency, charging speed, performance, looks, build quality……..

The new Kia EV6 GT looks blummin impressive.

I agree. Hope there are going to be plenty of these in stock when the lease on my e-Niro runs out in 18 months or so. At the moment its between this or a model Y

I can’t really profess to knowing a great deal about all the different EV options and the advantages of one over the other, but a mate of mine got a Skoda Octavia PHEV a few months back. It’s a company car & he is currently averaging an equivalent of 75mpg. I suspect that will drop in the winter time, but seems pretty good to me.

About 20mpg better than my Leon diesel, although I guess on a long run that will probably not hold true.

But for those short trips you’re carrying essentially..

Yes, but it still has advantages over both pure EV and pure ICE. Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather see everyone in EVs, but PHEVs fill a niche for now.

These are really getting close to tesla now

They seem a much better bet now, for me. Comparable range, what looks like better design and the build quality, engineering and support of a traditional major manufacturer. And they aren’t ugly as hell as a bonus.

Mind you, I hope the infotainment in that Ioniq 5 is better than the one in my Ioniq. That really lets the car down IMO and I’m normally pretty generous with such things.

Today, Tesla CEO Elon Musk was asked about the plan to open the Supercharger network during Tesla’s Q2 earnings conference call and confirmed the strategy:

We are thinking about a real simple thin where you just download the Tesla app, you go to the Supercharger, you just indicate which stall you are in, you plug in your car, even if it’s not a Tesla, and you just access the app to tell “turn on the stall that I’m in for how much electricity”, and this should work for almost any manufacturer’s electric car.