The Electric Car Thread

I’m hoping by the time I get my full EV (in 4 years probably) this nonsense will be much reduced. The manufacturers are just being greedy and thinking that tying people to a card or a type of charger makes it better for them but surely there will come a time when we can rock up to a decent charger and get a fill up at a reasonable price without having to register/logon/pay through the nose.

Yup you’re preaching to the choir here matey and I don’t know why people on here try to make excuses for the likes of Ionity. However your hopes and dreams are currently being fulfilled. I give you the Instavolt network. All contactless payment and pricey but not gouging 40p per kWh. Gridserve Electric Highway will be all contactless by the end of the summer at 30p per kwh. Also Osprey are contactless. It may end up as a government regulation becuase of this from gov.uk which is the governments policy for EV charging

“Under our vision we expect that any new chargepoints will be easy to use and hassle-free.

That means:

drivers can pay for the cost of charging their vehicle using debit or credit card payment
information about the chargepoints on motorways will be openly available, helping drivers choose when, where and how they charge
chargepoints will be available 99% of the time
drivers will be supported by 24/7 customer care to handle any technical issues
sites will have chargepoints that support all types of electric vehicles
there will be clear pricing information available in pence per kilowatt hour“

Really? Er, no.

Er yes. I’m not saying it’s not possible, Tesla managed it; but bear in mind that many current cars are also ICE versions which makes it harder. Hyundai make the Kona and the Ioniq but only the Kona comes with a bigger battery.

When we see more cars designed as pure EVs this may change, I hope it does. Also bear in mind that Tesla are a bit cheeky about their battery capacity as I understand it.

Currently back in Cobham services (there are like eight restaurants in here!) paying 30p/kWh at the Gridserve chargers but they are only 30kW.

Tesla – what way cheeky? If they’re overestimating then there efficiency becomes even more impressive as they deliver on range

Yup you’re preaching to the choir here matey and I don’t know why people on here try to make excuses for the likes of Ionity

I haven’t seen anyone make excuses for them. Everyone agrees they’re expensive.

The suspicion is that other manufacturers reserve the top and bottom ends of battery capacity to prolong their life, but Tesla quote the entire capacity to make it sound better and they let you brim it, which is detrimental to its life.

Tesla managed it; but bear in mind that many current cars are also ICE versions which makes it harder. Hyundai make the Kona and the Ioniq but only the Kona comes with a bigger battery.

When we see more cars designed as pure EVs this may change, I hope it does. Also bear in mind that Tesla are a bit cheeky about their battery capacity as I understand it.

I think this is a big part of it but I suspect the SUV fashion is a bigger one. It’s not so much they design them as SUVs to fit the batteries in, rather that if they’re going to try to shoehorn a battery in after the fact, it’s easier to do it to a design that’s got spare space (well, height). That said, I think Kona, Ioniq and Niro were designed to be EVs from the outset? (accepting they do offer them with ICEs in, and that those versions often came to market first, but I assume the BEV version was the plan all along)

The suspicion is that other manufacturers reserve the top and bottom ends of battery capacity to prolong their life, but Tesla quote the entire capacity to make it sound better and they let you brim it, which is detrimental to its life.

True but I’m not sure it’s particularly cheeky or big enough in number to affect shape of the car. It probably isn’t detrimental to the battery’s life to use the top (or indeed bottom) end occasionally so long as you follow some guidelines. Similarly, for example, I’m gentle on a cold ICE and would be concerned with a diesel only doing short journeys. Usage habits of lots of things can affect life. I could be giving folk too much benefit of the doubt but I reckon it’s pretty clearly communicated you should charge a Tesla only to 90% as a rule, which is most of what you need to know.

Yeah but give people the option and they will use it. It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out in a decade. Hyundai owners are not reporting any loss of capacity yet despite brimming their cars all the time in some cases.

It’s common knowledge to not use diesels for too many short trips or that you need to let them regen etc but people still don’t do those things. Hell, there are plenty of people who think that servicing ICE cars is some kind of con trick and they never do it, only adding oil when the warning light comes on…

The suspicion is that other manufacturers reserve the top and bottom ends of battery capacity to prolong their life, but Tesla quote the entire capacity to make it sound better and they let you brim it, which is detrimental to its life.

Its not a suspicion. The Mercedes EQC has a battery capacity of 85 kWh of which 80 kWh is usable. The Kia e-Niro has a battery capacity of 67.5 kWh of which 64kWh is usable.

There’s nothing wrong with charging an EV to 100% if you are going to use it the next day for a long journey. The batteries don’t like being kept at 100% for long periods. General rule is to keep it at between 20 to about 80-90% for most of your motoring. Waiting for an EV to charge from 80-100% on a rapid charger is like watching paint dry/waiting for a kettle to boil so don’t do it unless your journey demands it. Its also common courtesy for other EV drivers who may be queuing for the same charge point.

Personally I usually charge my e-Niro to 90% on the home charger bearing in mind the 3.5 kWh (5%) which is not accessible to me.

The suspicion is that other manufacturers reserve the top and bottom ends of battery capacity to prolong their life, but Tesla quote the entire capacity to make it sound better and they let you brim it, which is detrimental to its life.

I’m not sure this is proven yet. Yes Tesla may give you access to more battery top and bottom than some others, but certainly not “entire capacity”, they still limit access to battery top and bottom, just look on EV database at actual and available battery for Tesla. Tesla historic battery health data goes back to 2013 and generally appears to be ok. Other new kids ( Audi and Porsche) who limit more battery don’t have that historic data yet so there’s not the proven data that its any better on battery longevity, just for now it improves the charging curve, not necessarily the battery life. What you’re claiming with regards to battery life is not proven data, just hearsay for the time being. There are Teslas with 500k miles out there still going strong.

Just in my case, I 100% only rapid and supercharge my battery constantly and haven’t seen any reduction in battery health. Mine was one of the very first Model 3 to come into the UK so now 2 yr old. I’m not a fanboi BTW just not sure all the negative is justified.

Yeah but give people the option and they will use it. It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out in a decade. Hyundai owners are not reporting any loss of capacity yet despite brimming their cars all the time in some cases.

It’s common knowledge to not use diesels for too many short trips or that you need to let them regen etc but people still don’t do those things. Hell, there are plenty of people who think that servicing ICE cars is some kind of con trick and they never do it, only adding oil when the warning light comes on…

My point in the main was to agree with you. With ICE cars manufacturers have always given people the option to treat them badly. Sure, some have and there have been consequences in longevity. But decent practice is common knowledge. I don’t think it’s much different to give people the same responsibility with an EV and decent EV practice can similarly be made common knowledge. On top of that it’s pretty easy for manufacturers to make the software hammer the point home, as Tesla does (and I assume others do similar).

Where I’ve read of substantial battery degradation in Teslas, it’s generally been at the kind of mileage that would already be considered a pretty old car by ICE standards.

I find tesla ownership very odd. Before getting one I had zero interest in the company or the novelty owner and only a passing interest in the cars.

Since getting one (it’s fine by the way, be better if it was a hatchback) I’m astonished by how knowledgeable other people are about them and are very keen to tell me all the faults and problems with it (very few of which are true/relevant), and the company and how awful Elon Musk is. Are there more internet experts about any other cars than teslas?

I’m always topping my Kia up and have seen no degradation in 10 months of ownership. As far as I’m aware Kia has protection built into the battery that it never reaches its true 100% charge which would be the same as the Hyundai.

Ionic 5 UK review

What you’re claiming with regards to battery life is not proven data, just hearsay for the time being.

Yep that’s why I said ‘suspicion’.

Since getting one (it’s fine by the way, be better if it was a hatchback) I’m astonished by how knowledgeable other people are about them and are very keen to tell me all the faults and problems with it (very few of which are true/relevant), and the company and how awful Elon Musk is.

Not really that astonishing. A large portion of society hates hype so these people will try to counter that with reality. A lot of people seem to think that Tesla are the apogee of EVs but that’s not necessarily the case. If it’s true about the batteries it’s arguably a bit of a dodgy thing to have done in my opinion. But we don’t know for sure.

By ‘counter with reality’ you mean ‘shit they’ve read on the internet’.

Bit like this suppose. 😂

By ‘counter with reality’ you mean ‘shit they’ve read on the internet’.

Bit like this suppose.

I did read it on the internet. Doesn’t mean it’s false though. I just said there was a suspicion, and there is. Why so defensive? How much of that Kool-Aid did you drink? 🙂 I’m simlpy curious from an engineering point of view, I have no intention of buying one for a few reasons:

– They are ugly as hell
– The exclusive fast charger network is a dick move
– There are too many stories of poor build quality too recently – this would have to improve
– There’s a whiff of cult about them, which would have to dissipate first

But mostly it’s the looks, and I never normally care for looks – I drove a Mk2 Prius for 15 years.

The fairly solid but as-yet not officially confirmed theory that Hyundai/Kia are limiting capacity to ensure longevity, possibly at the ultimate cost of sales as their quoted ranges will be lower than they could be, gives me a positive feeling about the company which makes me happy with my choice despite the infotainment and nav system being frankly shit.

Before getting one I had zero interest in the company or the novelty owner and only a passing interest in the cars.

Well I am interested in cars (from an engineering perspective) and green(er) tech, so I have been following this to some extent.

I haven’t read the whole thread, so can anyone offer a synopsis? Casually / seriously considering a car replacement in the next year to 18 months, family car sized, and would like it to be an EV. This is replacing two cars which are 8-11 years old, so tend to keep cars for a while.

Having looked around, I’m surprised how variable the options are. I quite liked the look of some of the Peugeot EVs (understand its a shared platform with other manufacturers). But the only options are 100-130 mile range and this seems quite common? I’m not planning for daily long drives, but 100 miles would be a squeaky day out to the seaside and I can imagine what charger availability would be like at honeypot sites (i.e. more clogged than a bank holiday car park) so this would seem really low for range. An unfair assumption for a family car?

There do seem to be other options (VW, Tesla etc) with much more range, bafflingly for not much more money (assuming you are on the line for 35-45k for most of these vehicles). Why is there so much difference? Is range even an issue (we have small kids, so although a 45 minute stop on a long journey wouldn’t be the end of the world, I don’t want to be doing that all the time to do a 50 mile return trip)?

Is the Tesla supercharger network worthwhile?

Honestly, before I started “shopping” i thought it would be easy, but the completely different approaches by manufacturers makes me feel like I’m not comparing apples and apples. Either that or some manufacturers genuinely are way behind others in what they are offering. Anyone got any clarity?

Before getting one I had zero interest in the company or the novelty owner and only a passing interest in the cars.

Before not getting one I had already heard about the company, seen they were more expensive than others, heard and seen the build quality. Then I just found their looks dated quickly, have no idea why such a huge touchscreen is needed. Elon has always been a very strange character but he’s essentially just a name for the company. If they did a car I liked, within a price range and better quality I would have considered one. Why anyone would just buy car without looking into any of that is what I find weird.

But the only options are 100-130 mile range and this seems quite common?

Are you looking at used?

There were cheap lease deals £200 ish on Zoe, Leaf and Kona when I needed a car, and given that wasn’t much more monthly outlay than the loan we’d have needed to buy a much older and lower range car, I looked into it.

Zoe was great for a town car
Leaf was the best car and quite quick
Kona was good but had the extra range that helped us

Ioniq in the end, for same sort of price, and it’s great (even if the infotainment is sub par).

If I were buying, I’d get a used 38kWh Ioniq (190 mile range) for £15k unless I were rich in which case I’d get an iD4 based on the paper specs.

The most range per £ is probably the Kona 72kWh no? But given that people are most anxious about range they seem to be discounting shorter range cars which makes them cheaper. And 190 miles from the 38kWh is enough I think.

Is the Tesla supercharger network worthwhile?

If it is now, it won’t be for long. Chargers going up all over the place very quickly.

Are you looking at used?

No, that’s why I think I’m going a bit mad!

Peugeot e-2008. GT spec. 50kwh. Has a range calculator on the configurator, which is honest at least. 70mph (motorway), 10 degree outside temp…118 mile range. There is no “longer range” version. And this doesn’t seem that uncommon. It’s £37k!!!!

So am I crazy, or why the heck would I buy that over an ID4 or similar, with much more battery capacity? What am I missing?

Is the WLTP basis of mileage calculation really that inaccurate, if 190 miles out of 38kwh is actual reality? These are bigger vehicles, though.

This is replacing two cars which are 8-11 years old, so tend to keep cars for a while.

If you are set on buying an EV and keeping it for that long then now is not the time to buy as the tech is changing so quickly for example Hyundai and Kia have just brought 800V 350kW charging to the mass market, so a vehicle bought today will obsolete fairly quickly which might impact your residual value adversely. Also more and more new models are coming onto the market designed from the ground up as EVs so more interior space, better efficiency etc. I’d advise you to seriously consider a lease for 2-3 years. If you can stretch to a car with 300 miles WLTP range that’s about 250 max in the real world so if you can charge at home your trip would have to be more than 100 miles from home before you’d need to think about public rapid charging which would seem to take car of 99% of your journeys from what you’ve said.

Is the Tesla supercharger network worthwhile?

With the current state of the UK public charging if you do a lot of long journey then yes definitely. In the future hopefully less so.
BTW the supercharger network is not a dick move and its not exclusive. Tesla have always said other manufacturers are free to use if they can meet Tesla’s tech requirements. However if the legacy manufacturers did so then they’d have to acknowledge Tesla’s existence.

Either that or some manufacturers genuinely are way behind others in what they are offering.

That’s true.

Hmmm so that’s all about lease cost, then. But the range / WLTP thing does seem to be real, some big vehicles are still surprisingly short-range from some manufacturers. Appreciate my expectations will adjust and the charger network will improve, but I’d want to be able to do 200 miles in a family car I think.

Is the WLTP basis of mileage calculation really that inaccurate, if 190 miles out of 38kwh is actual reality?

It is for my Ioniq. That corresponds to 4.8 miles/kWh, and we can get that on a long run if there’s a decent amount of A road; we can exceed it in round town commuting. I did only get about 4.2 on the way down to Pippingford at the weekend but I got 4.7 on the way home. That was mostly motorway at 70mph (Although a few long 50 sections) but some B roads.

But the range / WLTP thing does seem to be real, some big vehicles are still surprisingly short-range from some manufacturers. Appreciate my expectations will adjust and the charger network will improve, but I’d want to be able to do 200 miles in a family car I think.

Yes some like the Audi eTron are horribly inefficient compensated for by having a big battery and a very good charging curve which gives it really fast charging. Having said that you should be able to get 200 miles out of any decent EV with at least a 60kWh battery.

Have a look at the Electric Vehicle Database click on “more options” and move the slider on the real range to give a minimum of 200 miles. When I tried that it came up with 91 cars capable of doing 200 miles.

Is the Tesla supercharger network worthwhile?

I’ve mentioned before. It’s getting left behind, there was none from South Tyneside until Edingburgh until a few months ago. Meanwhile the council chargers have been free to use for anyone for about 2 years in Northumberland. Tesla in Norway is considering making them available to all manufacturers. Maybe Tesla UK will follow.

Any views or alternatives for a Mini Countryman PHEV? Not looking at PCP or company car as Mrs S is retired but she still enjoys her driving. She took the 2.0 petrol out for a test drive and nearly pulled the trigger on that one but I’ve got her interested in the PHEV as it will give her as much ‘fun’ as the 2.0 petrol and 90% of her journeys will suit the 30-40 mile battery range. Also need room in the back for a dog.

On range, I’d go a little deeper than WLTP. Most people wouldn’t expect their petrol car to achieve its rated mpg, but the impact on them is less so they might not even know it. I didn’t know the rated mpg of my last car until I looked it up out of interest sometime into owning it, I just knew what it did and put that into the context of a fair bit of experience of other car use. Range is different because of how it affects daily life, but also because its kind of “new”.

So you have to take a bit of a plunge on it at the point of purchase.

By looking deeper into the numbers I just mean estimating Wh/mile or miles/kWh from what others get with the same car. From which the battery size can tell you realistic range. And knock at least 20% off for wanting not to run things too low for fear of a diversion or whatever. And bear in mind winter consumption is higher too. If you do a 200 mile day fairly regularly, my gut feel is a car with 200 mile “real world” range would be annoying.

If someone got all hot under the collar that their I-Pace/Etron uses 450wh/mile or whatever it is, I’d be inclined to roll my eyes a bit, because they should’ve found that out before buying, and there are loads of cars that can easily do 30% better.

On battery capacity and buffers, I don’t think it’s conjecture any more to say that most manufacturers use a bigger buffers than tesla. It seems pretty well proven. TeslaBjorn on you tube has gathered lots of data on actually vs rated capacities, tested ranges etc etc and doubtless lots of others have done similar. Also, I don’t think the manufacturers necessarily hide the point. However, neither do I think it’s wrong of Tesla to leave this bit of responsibility with the driver to look after the thing. I’m quite comfortable with the idea that I can make proper use of (nearly) every kWh in my battery, but that if I choose to do so I need to follow some simple guidelines to avoid damage.

I own a tesla and am happy with it but I wouldn’t hide the negatives. I absolutely think the build quality could be a lot better, for example, and their customer service is poor. I chose it mainly for efficiency/range, as well as the charging network, but I’d probably choose another over other EVs for the “autopilot” stuff (flawed in some ways, but I don’t like being without it now) and the genuine one pedal driving, if I’m totally honest. I almost never use the charging network and others have caught up on range, and I’d be on my second EV so I’ve lost any range anxiety.

Nobody on this thread has ever ‘brimmed’ a Hyundai or Kia (or at least any of the recent models, Kona, e-Niro, Hyundai 4, Soul whatever). You can’t access 100% of the battery. The 100% you see is round 95% of the real number.
Personally I like Tesla’s, the important word there being personally. I’d be giving that Peugot a miss though

90% of her journeys will suit the 30-40 mile battery range.

I doubt you’ll get anywhere near that in the real world. Having a quick look at the Autoexpress long term review of the Countryman PHEV they only got 15-20 miles EV range. Bear in mind you will have to plug the car in after every journey to make the most EV running. Plus it seems the fuel tank has been reduced to only 36 litres to accommodate the battery and e-motor which gives the car about 220 miles range- the same as a decent battery EV.

@shinton

A friend had one, on a cold wet winter’s day they were looking at near 10 miles, and typically it was 15-17 as suggested above.

He said if it did 30+ consistently he wouldn’t have got rid. He did however get a Tesla Model 3 instead and doesn’t regret it at all.

Thanks guys. Battery range was increased by 50% in 2020 so makes it a bit easier to live with.

Look at the battery size and multiply it by consumption, as a basic check.

With a PHEV you’ll typically get 2.5-3.0 mpkwH around town, and maybe 3.0-4.0 mpkwH on the motorway, at an average speed of around 60.

This is based on what I am experiencing in my A250e PHEV. My useable battery capacity is 10.5 kwH x 3.4 mpkwH consumption (which was my motorway journey in this morning), gives me a range of 36 miles, if conditions/traffic remained a constant.

I have had the car up to around 4.10 mpKWH, but the conditions/traffic were very favourable that day.
(no traffic, dry, outside temperature low 20’s, no aircon)

I’ve just taken the plunge in to the world of EV. We have a Kona Electric arriving next week which I’m quite excited about.

Had a test drive from a local dealer which gave me confidence jumping on one of the lease deals. We’re coming from a petrol Qashqai.

The thing that stuck out about the Kona was all the real world reviews of achieving 250+ miles from a charge. Making 100 mile day trips from home an easier task.

Going to see how we get on with 3pin charging and maybe look at a wall box if needed. Any recommendations there at all?

36 litres to accommodate the battery and e-motor which gives the car about 220 miles range- the same as a decent battery EV.

eh? assuming 45mpg (its a hybrid), you get 360miles petrol range, plus whatever the electric gives you (20 miles?) – plus ‘filling it up’ is a 5 minute stop. to only get 220 miles range you would have to be averaging 25mpg..

my folks have a phev xc40 for a similar use case and it suits them fine. plug it in when they get home every day, tootle about. They had it for 3 months before the engine started up. 10k cheaper than the equivilent electric model and zero hassle with apps, range anxiety and so on – they’re in their 70s, and not really smart phone users so this was a real concern for them.

Going to see how we get on with 3pin charging and maybe look at a wall box if needed. Any recommendations there at all?

I just went with a PodPoint which is what Hyundai/Kia recommend but I think they’re all much of a muchness. The PodPoint app will give you information on how much electricity is used to charge the car separate from the overall domestic consumption which is useful. It can also be used to set charging times and of course it gives access to the PodPoint public chargers. If I was installing one now I’d consider a Zappi is it might well interface better with a solar panel installation which we will be getting in due course. Ohme also a possibility especially if you are on an Octopus energy tariff.

I went for a tethered charger to save the hassle of loose cable.

When you get the Kona set up the UVO app which lets you do some useful stuff remotely like monitor charging, set aircon etc.

With a PHEV you’ll typically get 2.5-3.0 mpkwH around town, and maybe 3.0-4.0 mpkwH on the motorway, at an average speed of around 60.

I’ve no experience with PHEVs. Why is this? More braking that’s not regenerative? With a BEV your around town consumption is likely to be near enough as low as your 60mph consumption, I reckon. Worse because more regen braking, which has its inefficiency, better on drag.

@uponthedowns thanks for the tips, appreciated.

I’m just in the process of moving to Octopus, so hoping to get on their Go tarrif.

With a PHEV you’ll typically get 2.5-3.0 mpkwH around town, and maybe 3.0-4.0 mpkwH on the motorway, at an average speed of around 60.

Seems odd to me – ICE cars are more efficient on motorways because the engine is operating in a more efficient speed range. However EVs are more efficient the slower you go. We certainly get significantly better economy on our local town driving than we do on the motorway – 5.0-5.6 around town, 4.1-4.7 on motorways and A-roads somewhere in between.

However, neither do I think it’s wrong of Tesla to leave this bit of responsibility with the driver to look after the thing. I’m quite comfortable with the idea that I can make proper use of (nearly) every kWh in my battery, but that if I choose to do so I need to follow some simple guidelines to avoid damage.

Alright, but in 15 years time when there are old cars knocking around with 3-4 owners and people are buying privately it’s going to be a right pain when you can’t depend on decent battery condition, and there are going to be many more cars getting trashed because the batteries were trashed by some uncaring or unknowing person abusing their 12 year old car.

Seems odd to me – ICE cars are more efficient on motorways because the engine is operating in a more efficient speed range. However EVs are more efficient the slower you go. We certainly get significantly better economy on our local town driving than we do on the motorway – 5.0-5.6 around town, 4.1-4.7 on motorways and A-roads somewhere in between.

Am I right in thinking a typical BEV doesn’t have a gearbox?

It could be because the Merc PHEV has an 8 speed box which keeps the power consumption down (as it would do with revs on an ICE engine), while cruising, even in electric mode.