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Capital allowances on electric cars
Cars with CO2 emissions of less than 50g/km are also eligible for 100% first year capital allowances. This means with electric cars, you can deduct the full cost from your pre-tax profits. On a car costing around £40,000 this could amount to a tax relief of £7,600 in the first year.
It’s ok if you are wealthy, you can have your Michelin cake and eat it basically for free…
This annoyed me too. This big element of government support for EV purchase is only available for a business purchase. Doesn't make sense.
However, applicability on this front is not the same as "wealthy", although there will be some correlation. And note it's a timing benefit - the write down over the asset's life will be adjusted to the actual difference between buying and selling price.
It depends on how you run your household. For us, everything is operational expenditure. We haven’t got the capital to lay out a load of money and bank on getting some of it back in a number of years’ time.
You can finance it different ways, point I intended to make was that we should add up all the costs before making the choice, not just the capex/depreciation/monthly lease cost (delete as appropriate). Right now EV is an expensive option, generally, but not by so big a margin as most think. And the comparisons should bring broadly similar results whether we're talking a new EV today or a 5 year old one once we've had a decent market of them for 5 years, as will be required to compare apples with apples.
It’s ok if you are wealthy, you can have your Michelin cake and eat it basically for free…
Only for business purposes. It doesn't cover personal vehicles and/or tax allowance.
Personally an EV would be affordable however that doesn’t mean someone earning £18.5K (40h per week at max minimum wage) would think so, that’s before you consider workers who can only manage part time hours for whatever reason or the self employed. That’s nearly £10K under the average wage (£28k).
Erm, if you're basing it on minimum wage then its not just EVs that would seem expensive to those individuals. 🙈
If we base it on the average UK wage then a second hand EV is a possible avenue now to get their free leccy.
I won't disagree that a new EV is expensive compared to ICE and like others we're leasing through a work lease salary sacrifice scheme to make it affordable by taking advantage of tax and NI savings.
It's new tech, as with anything over time they'll get cheaper but by folk getting one now despite the high cost, theyre helping to flood the market with more environmentally friendly cars which will help drive prices down to what ICE cars are today (new and 2nd) all while helping little by little improve the local and global environment.
Hiya,
Have we discussed the xbus yet? I quite like them although people say they are ugly.
https://electricbrands.de/en/configurator/
Works out quite cost effective, seems an excellent bike carrier and not too expensive. My thinking is a 4x4 version with camper-van conversion 😉
JeZ
Have we discussed the xbus yet?
Looks good for local work and deliveries etc but would be terrible for a vanlife ****er mobile. It's brick shaped, that'd murder the range on open roads and as you flood towards whatever remote idyll is about to become more rammed than Coney Beach at Porthcawl and about as tidy, you'll be fretting about having nowhere to recharge.
NB This post is unnecessarily cynical
On the other hand...
Tank turn function
Yes, your XBUS can turn on the spot if necessary. This is made possible by the four individually controlled wheel hub motors. Thus, the term turning circle does not exist for you.
...best spec tough tyres!
Also screw van life, it would be nice if it was more wedge shaped but as its the only MPV going I'd take it.
How big is it though? For the price I'm assuming it's smaller than it looks and is more of a kei class size?
How big is it though? For the price I’m assuming it’s smaller than it looks and is more of a kei class size?
correct, its bloody tiny and thus useless at most things (including carrying bikes). 4m long, 1.6 wide.
as its the only MPV going I’d take it.
Is it?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/7-seater-cars/354700/best-7-seat-electric-cars
That looks like something I use to make from Lego when I was 6.
It looks more like a modern version of an APE. They'll sell loads to Italian farmers!
I like it.
Is it?
Seems not!
I searched for similar last week only to be met with loads of PHEV's.
correct, its bloody tiny and thus useless at most things (including carrying bikes). 4m long, 1.6 wide.
Well my Renault Trafic is 4.7 m long, but the engine at the front takes a fair bit of space. So I'm not convinced it would be that tiny. With respect to comments about being ugly the VW T2 is much the same at the front i.e a slab. I guess at it's top speed wind resistance is not so much an issue. The range of 600km is believable seems good. I'f probably be interested to see how they look inside before saying it's a bad idea. on the bike storage I keep my bikes attached to the bike rack at the back of the van and don't use the internal space for storage. You have to make a decision where bikes are stored with a Van?
With respect to would I replace my van with one, no. It's a Sussex camper-van conversion and I don't have the money for another. I don't agree with the replace concept anyway. When my engine gets old and tired and when the tech gets better, Id rather convert to electric anyway.
BR
JeZ
With respect to comments about being ugly the VW T2 is much the same at the front i.e a slab
Yeah ugly too.
Yeah ugly too.
Yeah but sells. Like I said I like my van and intend to switch to electric in the future.
Obviously with a renault camper-van I'm not a fan boy of VW, which is based on past experiences of their products. Anyway I still think it is a great idea and I think it will do really well.
BR
Jerry
They sell as they’re a classic and at the time of release were fairly unique and had a big following.
It’s EV equivalent might not get the same following but you never know.
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They sell as they’re a classic and at the time of release were fairly unique and had a big following.
It’s EV equivalent might not get the same following but you never know.
My brother wants one. The rumor is that this VW will sell these lifestyle icons for 60K. Personally I think VW has lost the plot and why the original was so popular, i.e. cheap. For sure it will appeal to the wannabees, anything to look cool, but personally I can't stand VW products, from bitter experiences. Xbus has got it right on pricing, functionality, and appeal. I'm not their target market anyway.
Jerry
I think with the Xbus the 600km is not the same as most brands range, they are designed to be modular so the top 600km is every extra battery you can plug into the back and a very generous allowance for the solar charging. If I understood it right.
I am really enjoying our E-Expert but it isn't up the the quality of our Kia.
Hopefully there is a larger range (geddit?) available when our lease ends in a few years. Perhaps a new Trafic as they are part of Nissan. First dedicated skateboard chassis van... Or the same thing from Hyundai/Kia would be great too.
I would have an X Bus in the 4 door plus pickup rear combination, especially if they come in at around £20K. I don't need a big car but the pickup bit at the back would be very useful.
Twizzy with doors and less power. This is the future... I'd quite like one for £5k all in.
https://www.citroen.co.uk/models/future-models/ami.html
Twizzy with doors and less power. This is the future… I’d quite like one for £5k all in.
I'd quite like one that wasn't limited to 28mph. To the point I've been trying to demo a UK spec 50mph limited twizzy ..
Personally I think VW has lost the plot and why the original was so popular, i.e. cheap
But people are paying it so why wouldn't you charge it?
Well my Renault Trafic is 4.7 m long, but the engine at the front takes a fair bit of space. So I’m not convinced it would be that tiny.
4.8m long (4.78 to be precise). but anyway, a van has full height doors and reasonable width, this has neither - the doors stop about 3' off the ground. It looks like it'd be worse for loading bikes into than any medium-sized car
"Personally I think VW has lost the plot and why the original was so popular, i.e. cheap"
But people are paying it so why wouldn’t you charge it?
decades of brand image means the second hand values are also high, which nudges people towards the lease model. The difference in lease cost between brands is often way less than the difference in purchase price.
Which is exactly what they want, as it gives them a market to sell even more on a rolling 3 year cycle
I’d quite like one that wasn’t limited to 28mph.
Yeah, the 28 is obviously there for French age related licensing reasons but a pity it wasn't upped to at least 40 as it would do me for my driving. Where I live every road is pretty much 40 and if I want to drive at 28mph and hold everyone up I should get a Honda Jazz like everyone else that does that.
The Twizzy has gone up to a silly price for what it is so can't see why someone would buy one.
Hiya,
5lab:
decades of brand image means the second hand values are also high, which nudges people towards the lease model. The difference in lease cost between brands is often way less than the difference in purchase price.
Which is exactly what they want, as it gives them a market to sell even more on a rolling 3 year cycle
They are trading on past glories from my own experience. I note I'm not the only one that thinks this:
https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/most-reliable-engines/
With respect to heights of doors and storage as I said storage of bikes in my van was never on the list of storage options. Personally Id wait till I saw one in the felsh to work out its practicality. I note the campervan version has an extendable section to increase the sleeping space. As I said orginally the cost of this I think, will make it very attractive to certain market segments. I can see it for sure in cities and the VW camper is just a lifestyle gimmick for a market segment. I've never followed the herd in this respect.
BR
Jerry
I was saying earlier how I thought that manufacturers had really pushed the boat out with design and equipment on their EVs - it comes to something when one of the most beautiful, innovative and boldly designed cars in the mid range is a Hyundai, out-luxurying the most premium manufacturers' traditional offerings from a decade ago. And we've also talked about the possible shortcomings of Tesla in terms of build quality. So I was left wondering what it would be like when a proper luxury manufacturer has a go. Given how fancy the Ioniq 5 is, the stakes are high.
Well, no need to wonder any more - the Mercedes EQS is reviewed, and I don't think I've ever seen a reviewer quite this blown away. This car is incredible on so many levels. He says that even mid range EVs, by virtue of having silent engines, are more refined than high end ICE cars - so a really high end EV should be virtually silent. And it is, apparently. This is definitely my lottery win car. Also has a nearly 500 mile range!
This is definitely my lottery win car.
But will it tow a caravan?
With the lack of EVs able to tow caravans then we should be pushing for more EV use so that caravans die out and don’t hold everyone up.😄
Both the Ioniq and the Ev6 can tow 1500kg. I have no idea if that’s enough for a caravan as I’m not one of those people. 😉
Both the Ioniq and the Ev6 can tow 1500kg. I have no idea if that’s enough for a caravan as I’m not one of those people. 😉
I think the issues how far you can tow with them, could also be a giggle getting the ‘rig’ in the charging bay.
TBH after having a caravan and towing don’t really get the fascination. Perhaps not enough caravan club swingers on the sites I visited.
I'm not fascinated by caravans, it's just a cold way to me more comfortable whilst camping. We don't go to big sites, it's just 5 caravans in a field in the middle of nowhere.
The lack of range when towing isn't necessarily a huge issue if you plan carefully enough, but the fact that you'd have to unhitch your van somewhere then go and recharge could be the biggest problem. Not too bad in a motorway service station but elsewhere could be harder.
This car is incredible on so many levels.
It's not really. I had a go in one back in July and it's typical Mercedes - flashy, complicated, and not brilliantly put together. And it has the same weird smell inside that every Merc has.
The huge amount of screen real estate: good. The fact that you can see the gaps between the individual sections and the whole lot is reflective as hell: not so good. Nothing is intuitive on the system and the whole lot runs at about 15 frames per second, so it doesn't look smooth when you swipe. They flicker slightly all the time too, which is worse at night.
Steering wheel is too big. HUD is good though and loads bigger than the one that was fitted to my V90.
I liked the massage seats. Didn't like the soft pillows on the head rests - it just made it think of how much sweat from other drivers they'd absorbed before I rested my own head on it.
If it's as silent as the reviewer says that would be a win for me as quietness is near the top of my list of priorities I think.
I’m not fascinated by caravans, it’s just a cold way to me more comfortable whilst camping. We don’t go to big sites, it’s just 5 caravans in a field in the middle of nowhere.
The lack of range when towing isn’t necessarily a huge issue if you plan carefully enough, but the fact that you’d have to unhitch your van somewhere then go and recharge could be the biggest problem. Not too bad in a motorway service station but elsewhere could be harder.
Dude I was joking you know 😉 If I could afford an EQS I'd be rocking up to a 5* hotel every night.
I admire what Mercedes have done with the EQS, it’s really setting the standard for high end EV. It’ll be interesting to see what BMW come up with. Audi/Porsche have obviously got the GT/Taycan.
But it’s quite possibly the ugliest car Mercedes have ever made, and Mercedes have made a lot of ugly cars recently. No elegance at all.
.
On the outside yes. Interior is good tho.
I don't know, I quite like the EQS or EQE.
Now the BMW iX is a thing of beauty. 😂😂😂
EDIT... the penny has just dropped that a large chunk of what they term 'conversion' losses is the efficiency of power generation from fuel sources (no idea how that is computed for Nuclear though...) Still an interesting chart...
Umm, that's not news. At all.
Nuclear is easy, thermal power (MW) to electrical output. Same as any other thermal source really.
What's not news?
Nuclear - OK got you..... so basically the efficiency of the steam generation, turbine and generator etc.
I'm not sure that's the same as any of other sources on the chart though, probably why it's shown on it's own. For combustion power plants the input number is the energy contained in the fuel. Wouldn't make much sense to compute it that way for nuclear however !
one mans experience with an electric car
>one mans experience with an electric car
More fake clickbait drama.
As above, a nuclear power plant is just the same as a coal power plant - a boiler producing steam that drives turbine(s). In fact one of the design goals of the UK's AGRs was to be able to use the same turbines as coal plants by getting the CO2 coolant outlet temperature to ~640 °C.
PWRs and BWRs have lower temperature coolant outlet - e.g. PWR ~315 °C
This makes PWRs and BWRs less efficient (thermodynamic efficiency depends on the temperature difference between the heat source and the cold sink) - but it doesn't really matter as the CO2 equivalent for nuclear fuel is very low - it's the mining and refining / enriching which compared with E=MC² is small. Cost of fuel is a small proportion of overall cost for nuclear plants (and for wind and solar of course) whereas for fossil fuels it's almost all the cost.
Footnote: Whilst all UK nuclear power plants use Rankine steam cycles there are other possibilities especially if working at higher temperatures e.g. gas cooled pebble bed reactors. Such a reactor could use the Brayton cycle like a jet engine or gas power station.
What’s not news?
@paul0 sorry I totally misinterpreted what you meant there, I thought you meant the government had only just realised this!
Yes you can calculate the energy in the fuel, same with nuclear. No experience of conventional power but I'd be surprised if they didn't have an indicator of generated heat to compare to output as well.
I have coursebook that covers all this if you or anyone else would be interested in them. It's the entire pre-pub book set for OU T213 Energy Systems and Sustainability, I got the final copy and thought someone may appreciate them.
I read today that the top spec 4WD iD4 in the US after the grant is $41k or £30k. In the UK it doesn't qualify for the grant and is £55k. What the actual ****?
Reading this with interest as I now know EV owners distributed between
- v well off, Tesla, frankly slumming it a bit
- not at all well off, Tesla, just very poor with money
- not at all well off, 2nd hand Zoe with limited range, uses free charging stations and potters around happily & economically
- well off, Zoe as a second car, has learned to plan any long journeys with great care!
- well off, big EV, just acquired so we shall see how it goes...
Looking at #3 you don't have to be super rich if there's a use case that works for you.
We only have room for one car and we do use the estate bit of it quite a lot, but I deffo have EV envy and can't wait to have an EV estate or even better, van, with decent range.
Sadly I'll have to!
More fake clickbait drama.
Yup. Pretty much like a lot of Guy’s stuff it has added drama.
@stripeysocks I think you missed a major category if not the largest one - company car drivers. The low (or is it zero?) BiK and low lease costs make having an expensive EV as a company about the same as a pretty basic ICE car.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 does look lovely
an indicator of generated heat to compare to output as well
Absolutely. e.g. Hinckley C has thermal output of 2 × 4,524 MW and a rated electrical output of 2 × 1,630<span class="nowrap"> MW. </span>
(It's 2 x as the power station will have 2 identical reactors with their own turbines and generators)
@molgrips - Yeah €48k minus the $7.5k grant for the first 200k EVs that VW sell, + the state sales tax, make it an average of around $44k. Us on our (generally) lower wages have to pay more.
RE Guy Martin video - My use case for a car is probably more typical than this 'how far can we go' 'how hard is it' we get on such videos.
Ended up with Kia Soul EV with 64kwh battery, we have found summer range to be over 280 miles pretty much however we drive it and usually get a shade over 290 miles (~4.5 miles per kw and we have seen between 4.2 and 4.7 in normal use depending on conditions and route).
Typical week is
1 visit to office, 50 miles each way, 7kw charger on other side at £2.20 per 4 hours.
Rest of week is used school runs and wife to go to work.
At weekend might do a 50-120 mile round trip.
Aim to drive to work with ~110 miles range, charge at work for £4.40 which covers virtually all other use, if needed we top up at home.
Expectation in winter and when back to office more often is have a bit more in tank before leaving home and more top-ups at home, and likely another 4 hours or two a week when at office.
Is it cheaper than an ICE car when all is considered? No, but on the basis our car was stolen and we needed to replace we went electric.
More importantly I find it extremely comfortable / easy to live with. Don't regret it at all.
Us on our (generally) lower wages have to pay more.
Not sure we're on generally lower wages, in most cases tbh, it's just certain high wages skewing mean and median wage. But anyway. This is clearly marketing based. But the good news is, they are clearly over-charging the UK which means that when sales start to slow they will lower them and there's a long way for them to go. Give it a few years there'll be 'new lower prices!' and we'll be able to afford them.
rather a strong review for a newcomer. wonder if they're going to pop up in the UK
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37852273/2022-lucid-air-dream-edition-drive/
1000bhp, 500 mile range, £100k in the US (500bhp version with 400 miles of range will be approx £50k)
If you were to rock up to a national drag racing championship race in the USA with a Lucid Air or a Tesla Model S Plaid they are so fast you would have to equip them with a braking parachute to meet race regs. Not bad for luxury saloon cars.
I saw that Lucid one, nice and good for EV image but I'm not sure that's a problem that needs solving. Cheap enough cars and more infrastructure are the things I really want to see.
It's still a damn nice car tho. That essentially all-glass roof is incredible. Imagine being in the back being driven through mountains and forests...
I saw that Lucid one, nice and good for EV image but I’m not sure that’s a problem that needs solving. Cheap enough cars and more infrastructure are the things I really want to see.
That's the issue affordable options for normal people, Tesla and polestar grab the headlines but most people only really need a Leaf or Zoe. I did notice the new Corsa EV the other day, except it starts at £24k... For a Corsa?!?
the thing is its pretty hard for a startup to compete with cheap cars - they aren't going to have the mass engineering or economies of scale to make the margins work. At the luxury end of the market there's a far bigger gap between cost and value, so its easier to make a dent.
I can't think of a genuinely new (ie not just a subbrand of an existing company) small\cheap car company from the last 30 years - its just not a viable space to work in.
Yeah I agree. But I think we have Tesla to thank for making people realise that EVs aren't crap. People are fickle.
Will be interesting to see if the new 'cheap' Tesla actually comes to the UK and if it does if it will be under £20k - can't see it happening myself.
I think we won't see cheap cars until expensive cars stop being sold at the rate the batteries can be made. The US is building its own battery factories at speed, because it has the cash to invest and it's a big market. This means that the cars there are cheaper. The iD4 is going on sale for approx 2/3 the price it is here, after the federal discount.
If they made them cheaper here they'd sell more than they could make I suspect.
I did notice the new Corsa EV the other day, except it starts at £24k… For a Corsa?!?
You can easily spend over £20k on a petrol or diesel Corsa these days though, and they don't make the EV one in the cheapest trims. The EV is also comfortably the quickest Corsa these days.
On PCP at the same trim level, the EV is about £20 a month more expensive than a petrol auto, but you'll be saving £66pm in fuel (10p/mile difference in running cost, 8000 miles a year), It stacks up if you'd be buying a Corsa anyway.
Not sure we’re on generally lower wages, in most cases tbh, it’s just certain high wages skewing mean and median wage.
A senior Aerospace Engineering on the west coast of the US will earn ~$125k. That will be £50-60k in the UK and €80-90k in France and Germany.
A senior Aerospace Engineering on the west coast of the US will earn ~$125k. That will be £50-60k in the UK and €80-90k in France and Germany.
similar gap in salaries for software engineering as well - I manage people based in (inexpensive parts of) the US who are earning a chunk more than me. Lower taxes and general cost of living (see house prices in particular) mean that there's a lot more disposable income around
Lower taxes and general cost of living (see house prices in particular) mean that there’s a lot more disposable income around
The latter is less true for me (Mobile aside) as Seattle, California and Chicago aren't cheap to live in. Food isn't that cheap in the US. Cheap food is cheap, but decent food is about the same as here (pre-brexit), but transport, tech, fuel and energy are cheap.
I quite like the look of the new Škoda Enyaq iV. Prices start at around £32k. I’m one year into a PCP plan on a Karoq (petrol) so let’s see what’s available in two or three years time
A senior Aerospace Engineering on the west coast of the US will earn ~$125k.
Property prices there are eye-watering though, and you have to live on a fault line at the bottom of a hill where you'll get flattened by a landslide in the next earthquake.
You can easily spend over £20k on a petrol or diesel Corsa these days though, and they don’t make the EV one in the cheapest trims. The EV is also comfortably the quickest Corsa these days.
On PCP at the same trim level, the EV is about £20 a month more expensive than a petrol auto, but you’ll be saving £66pm in fuel (10p/mile difference in running cost, 8000 miles a year), It stacks up if you’d be buying a Corsa anyway.
Perhaps, but it's still essentially just a base model vauxhall with a motor and batteries crammed in. I've owned a corsa before, I'm not too proud to buy a cheap badly built car but there has to be a significant financial advantage really. And if I was going to start dabbling with PCP, well, a Corsa?!??
Why not take a bit more debt on and buy something you might actually like?
I quite like the look of the new Škoda Enyaq iV. Prices start at around £32k. I’m one year into a PCP plan on a Karoq (petrol) so let’s see what’s available in two or three years time
We were 20 months into our PCP on a Karoq Sportline and sold it with 3.5k our way, have you done some quick checks on WBAC?
The Enyaq is a nice car, the non sportline versions look a bit old man-ish. Problem with the Enyaq is the toys and tech is on the optional extras, the base model compared to say an ID4 or Q4 isn't that good.
Nice big car though none the less.
A work colleague has an electric Corsa and it's a very nice car. If you want an EV that looks like a plain normal car the Corsa fits the bill.
I'm seriously considering a nearly new Leaf, but the Chademo fast charger connection makes me a little nervous. I've seen lots about the CCS ports being installed everywhere - is the Chademo socket 'easy' enough to find when on a long journey?
It makes me a little nervous that everything else has a different plug, and is a lot of money to spend and not be able to find fast chargers if needed.
Most journeys will be shorter from home so not an issue, but would want to take the 'nice' car away on longer trips.
You'll be OK with CHAdeMO for a few more years as there are still plenty of rapid chargers around with CHAdeMO plugs but at some point it will go the way of Betamax. All new cars in Europe have switched to he CCS standard and even the new Nissan Ariya will be CCS. Maybe some enterprising person will come up with a CHAdeMO to CCS adaptor or a CCS conversion kit for old Leafs but apparently CHAdeMO to CCS adaption isn't straightforward so probably won't be cheap.
A current gen Leaf is a good car, but you might as well get a Hyundai Ioniq as it has more range, is as good of a car, and has CCS.
Jut read about the Ami yesterday.
https://www.citroen.co.uk/models/future-models/ami.htmlLooks interesting. To me it could suit my mother in law who may be moving close by. Good for around town but not up to visiting us.
Thanks molgrips, also looking at Ioniq due to CCS but the challenge I have is that I have no car at all currently, so need to find something available now. The range looks about the same, but the bigger battery ionics are a good bit more expensive than the leaf.
Those Ami's can be driven by 14 year olds in France without a licence, I wonder if we will head that way?
Apparently it's a "low powered quadracycle" and can be driven by 16 year olds in UK.