The Berlin wall did not divide East from West Germany. Wow !!!

Hadrian’s Wall factoid: When the tablets were discovered at Vindolanda, I think folks were really excited to see what amazing discoveries the Roman Legions were writing about: Turns out its mostly folks complaining about the weather, the cold, the locals, and lack of socks…Oh and “bring more beer when you come here”

I’ve always “known” that Hadrian’s Wall was the most northerly border of the Roman Empire, but have just learned that the Antonine Wall was built further to the north twenty years later.

Another 50 miles north of the Antonine wall is Lix Toll – or might it have been LIX, as in 59th, toll, particularly as there are Roman fortification remains in Fortingall (Or is it Fort In Gall as much as the Gaelic meaning of ‘Stronghold’?) area, the ‘Roman’ bridge name (although the bridge is newer than that), walls of unknown but possible Roman origin on a couple of sites around Loch Tay… The Romans were it seems at least 175 miles north of Hadrians Wall…

Turns out its mostly folks complaining about the weather, the cold, the locals, and lack of socks…Oh and “bring more beer when you come here”

That is like some of the Viking runes ‘graffiti’ throughout the north and western isles – apparently there is a fair few ‘Thor sh*gg*d Frida here’ type messages.

Whereas the Antonine wall maybe suffered from being in a more densely inhabited part of Scotland – and was built mainly of turf.

That and it lasted only about 20 years in total (from start of building to abandonment).  So if talking about frontiers it makes more sense to talk about Hadrians wall and have a footnote about the failed expansion.

Every day This thread is a school day

When the tablets were discovered at Vindolanda, I think folks were really excited to see what amazing discoveries the Roman Legions were writing about:

That was really exciting for the historians though. Most of the history from those times is written by “great men” about them and their mates. Having what joe bloggs was thinking about it fills in gaps, even if it is mostly “fk this place is cold and damp”.

That is like some of the Viking runes ‘graffiti’ throughout the north and western isles – apparently there is a fair few ‘Thor sh*gg*d Frida here’ type messages.

Maeshowe being the most famous example.

The strangest part for me was where the metro crossed between east / west and just didn’t stop at stations on the ‘other’ side where there were guards on the platform making sure non-one tried anything.

The film Bridge of Lies is a worth a watch, with some fairly harrowing imagery.

The Romans were it seems at least 175 miles north of Hadrians Wall…

Mons Grappius is a famous battle fought somewhere in Scotland. Probably in the Cairngorms.

The “where they create a desert, they call it peace” quote which appears from time to time is taken from an account of this battle.

On a side note there is increasing evidence of Roman presence in Ireland, possibly exploratory military expeditions.

I’ve got two answers. My grown up one, knowing where Berlin is on the map, knowing about the Berlin airlift, having read all le carre, and having been to the place is that obviously it was an enclosure.

However, as a young kid watching spy films the pictures in my head which are still there are of a city split down the middle. So my sympathy is with the OP. Some of the stuff that goes in early you never question.

(I went to a really rubbish school in the 70s when this would have been current affairs, if we’d had that. )

Vindolanda is well worth a visit… precisely because of the insight into how people lived… rather the grand overarching events.

**** ell, Offas Dyke is going to blow your minds😂

Used to travel through when I was kid, late 70’s  through to 1990 just after the wall came down. With my vague memories it all makes sense now but when I was little it didn’t. “Why are taking Grandad away” i would ask my Nan. Stasi always wanted to talk to grandad on the inner German boarders.

First saw the iron curtain in 1972 when i was a nipper on a family holiday. It was near a town in W Germany called Duderstadt  I think.

It was an expanse of cleared forest area, with at least double wire fences with minefields in between and watch towers with armed guards.

Next time i saw it was in 1986, up close and personal at Friedrichstrasse station in East Berlin. Had taken the train from Frankfurt to E Berlin to visit my sister who was doing a year abroad at the Humboldt in E Berlin. The passport control was intimidating with closed booths that locked as you went in, unsmiling, officious official who reviewed visas. Mirrors everywhere so you couldn’t sneak anything through, and finally the door clunked as it unlocked to let me through.

Coming home was even more intimidating. They wouldn’t let you up on the platform, and then when they did we had to stand behind a white line,  don’t date step over as there were watchtowers with machine guns, spotlights and armed guards with dogs walking up and down the platform. When the train came in it was empty, and then they searched the train throughout and dogs underneath to stop anyone getting out.

Brutal treatment of a population and no wonder it failed.

It was just when Chernobyl happened, and the East German radio didn’t say much but could pick up info from West Berlin radio.

Walked at the tail end of the May Day parade and saw an aging Erich Honecker and the government waving a red hankies sitting in a grand stand on Unter den Linden.

In 89/90 went to see Roger Waters play the Wall in what was the old no-mans land that had separated East and West Berlin

Another one that didn’t know this. I thought the iron curtain was the bit of the wall that went through Berlin (and just a part of the wall). It didn’t even click when I visited checkpoint Charlie and a part of Berlins wall.

Every days a school day

The tourist checkpoint Charlie (the Americans really did win – McDonald’s on one side and KFC on the other)….

Brutal treatment of a population and no wonder it failed.

Yeah, when your ideology is more important to you that the well being of the humans that have to live it, its not going to last that long.

I should be working but…… for you amateur historians and cycle tourists there is a cycle trail in Germany that follows the course of the old iron curtain border separating West and East Germany

Germany holidays: the Iron Curtain Trail

and it is part of a much longer trail that traces the entirety of the iron curtain from north Finland to the Black Sea

https://en.eurovelo.com/ev13

Yeah, not a route that anyone half-sensible is going to do now or in the near future.

Tim Moore rode it and did a book 

for you amateur historians and cycle tourists there is a cycle trail in Germany that follows the course of the old iron curtain border separating West and East

In Germany it’s known as the Grüne Streife, the Green Strip, since wildlife was able to flourish there.

I lived for a while a few km from the border when the GF was studying in Coburg (as in Prince Albert’s old manor). Ride through the woods towards Thüringen and you’d come across an opening with concrete tracks.

Locals in Bavaria used to throw bananas across the fence towards the guards in the east.

Locals in Bavaria used to throw bananas across the fence towards the guards in the east

My sister said that she used to dream about bananas during her year in E Berlin. Nothing much in the shops to buy at all.

“Turns out its mostly folks complaining about the weather, the cold, the locals, and lack of socks…”

The STW of it’s day

The Documentary ” Turning point” has a good section on East Germany, It gives more of a perspective from the inside.

This is actually quite surprising to me, not the facts but that so many folk older than me don’t know.

I remember the wall falling in 1989 and Blue Peter showing off a brick they got a hold of. I was 6 at the time.

I’m pretty sure we covered that in higher Modern Studies (as well as apartheid and the new Scottish Parliament) but if not I was at a forces school later on, there were a lot of kids who had lived in Germany so it was pretty relevant.

Antonine Wall is still there, I’d recommend avoiding the Antonine Centre in Cumbernauld though. You can still see bits of it but as said it’s more earthworks than anything else. Would probably be a good C2C walk though.

Or better yet, enter the Falkirk CX round and race over and around the Wall (I never understood this – council built flats pretty much on the wall, and before then there was a canal that went through it, but for years there was real issues with doing anything on the wall…now, there are holding very successful CX races using it.
I say using it, the race course crosses it in places, nothing is done other than tape to direct the racers.

The STW of it’s day

What sandals for British mud?

apparently there is a fair few ‘Thor sh*gg*d Frida here’ type messages.

Frida is a corruption of Frigg I think. Hmm.

It was an expanse of cleared forest area, with at least double wire fences with minefields in between and watch towers with armed guards.

Oh, oh, is this where the deer are?

Ich hab’ immer “todesstreifen” gehört, Alpin.

But did Adolf escape the fuhrerbunker via platz d luftbrucke through to templehof airport ??