MSP,

Sometimes progress is a chimera. it’s not that progress has gone backwards a couple of decades, it’s that the problem has been sublimated for a couple of decades. What we are seeing now is not what is happening now it’s what has been happening for decades only we chose not too look. As a nation we prided ourselves on being less racist than other countries. We were complacent.

I think the artist Dave put it best with his Brit awards performance:

“The least racist, is still racist,

and if somebody hasn’t said it,

equality is a right, it doesn’t deserve credit.”

We can, as you say express our sympathies by voting for the least worst option at the ballot box but is becoming abundantly apparent that politics doesn’t have all the answers, we can’t absolve ourselves at the ballot box, a voting slip is not a sacrament.

I don’t have the answers either but the first step is to acknowledge what we have ignored for far too long and how we might be complicit by acquiescing to the ‘least racist’ narrative.

I’d hazard a guess that most people on this mountain bike website know that this thread is way more likely to be populated by worthy gobshites than one about birthdays…

I’d leap to the emotive conclusion that those people don’t see, or want to identify with race as an issue enough to get involved

Many people want to avoid any internet discussions about race for many reasons… and, yes, some might avoid it because they have no interest in it, or do not care, which is a sad state of affairs… but many, and as I said this is my reason for abandoning this thread long ago, want to avoid having to engage with the “I’m not a racist but he had it coming” scum who pollute these discussions wherever they appear online.

worthy gobshites

Well, you avoided using the word woke, clever you.

Kelvin,

Got to say I’m a little disappointed. Avoiding a topic because of a few trolls is giving into cancel culture. I take it that many posting on here offering their perspective on events are doing so because they are asking questions of themselves or at least attempting to understand others viewpoints. Otherwise they wouldn’t bother.

There’s only a few that are completely beyond the pale and perhaps the mods could do a better job of monitoring certain forums, after all, there’s usually only one or two threads going at the same time that deal with racism.

On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised. I could be wrong, but paying a little closer attention to the occasional vicious contributions from some members would be a good start.

And that thought leads me to another thought. I was at the Forest of Dean MTB centre last weekend and it was packed. As I looked around the car park at the hundreds of kitted out privateers I found myself asking questions that I hadn’t on previous visits to trail centres. Before I would have seen them as people sharing a similar interest to mine, this time I began to contemplate what the differences between us might be. I saw people differently. I was also struck by the diversity in age and types of people there in general, the large number of family groups and people you wouldn’t have seen on a bike a decade ago, though I’m sure you can see where this is going, not very diverse in other ways.

It is what it is, participation in a sport is voluntary though it did occur to me how when we identify as mountain bikers we so easily insulate ourselves from the problems associated with race. One of the great things about mountain biking is the way in which you can empty your head of your and all the worlds problems and concentrate on the trail ahead.

Crikey

When echo chambers go bad…

Do you mean that a different perspective has been expressed and supported, rather than solidifying your moral values?

Can this be closed now?
Increasingly apparent that it’s just a bad tempered shambles

Is it making you uncomfortable to see people discussing difficult issues, making mistakes and forgiving?

I’d hazard a guess that most people on this mountain bike website know that this thread is way more likely to be populated by worthy gobshites than one about birthdays…

Nothing left to contribute other than insult?

I’d rather it wasn’t necessary to have these conversations at all, but I’m glad that we are able to discuss them on a mtb forum with people who wouldn’t ordinarily be aware of them. You may wonder what relevance it has to mtb, but it’s a sport dominated by middle class white males, which should be welcoming and accessible to all. We’re open about discussing mental and physical health, trail access, politics and coffee machines, why single out race as irrelevant, but also affects forum users lives and access to the trails?

When racism flares up in the news my kids suffer, and the people who are supposed to protect them explain it away and tell my black kids to be less conspicuous, essentially because white people don’t understand and can’t control themselves.
It’s truly shocking and as a parent it is terrifying. I ride my bike to escape it all, yet I see these threads as I smile at other riders, wondering if my kids would be welcome.
What do we do next?

Thanks for posting, sorry if you have been caught up in Krytons and I’s continual bickering!

Your first point about those who should be protecting kids not helping, I hope as a teacher I would never do that although words are easy arent they. We get no training on such things or gender issues or sexuality and this no doubt leads to many getting it wrong either by being well meaning idiots or hopefully less common just being wrong thinking.

This chat bored came a long way in a short time on gender issues I think. Threads with random pictures of scantily clad ladies vanished overnight after I presume someone called “us” out on it. Not wishing to make excuses but sometimes if you havent experienced something its hard to spot what you are doing wrong. The middle class, well educated, white majority on here need calling out and I dont think many on here want to upset others or make things worse. Its hard though for me to understand the reason why so few people from ethnic minorities cycle for example. We need educating. So to answer your last point “what do we do next” **** knows, I’d like to have answers and I’d like to think I try my best but really we need telling by people like you.

I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is ‘anti racist’. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out ‘anti racist’ each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring ‘anti racist’ points than about anything else.

It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted because people offered help that wasn’t offered in this thread…

It’s all got a bit 6th form common room where people are trying ever so hard to out do one another.

I’m not uncomfortable at all; I’m responsible for my behaviour and I’m content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.

On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.

Everyone I have spoken to connected to Singletrack and various bike brands are keenly aware they have lots to do, and want to do more, but it’s not easy. I’ll dig out what Cy @ Cotic wrote about this… feel free to contact anyone connected to Cotic about it… we’re all behind Cy trying to find ways of being less shit about these issues… we all need to do far more.

https://www.cotic.co.uk/news/2020/black-lives-matter

I’m responsible for my behaviour and I’m content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.

I’m hoping we (I, you, all of us) can find new ways to do more. I’m far from content that I’m even close to doing enough myself. I’m deeply uncomfortable that I’ve only ridden or chatted with fewer than a handful of riders who aren’t white… despite haven met thousands of riders over the decades.

Firstly:

Thanks for posting, sorry if you have been caught up in Krytons and I’s continual bickering!

I keep telling you I’m not arguing with you, maybe its my writing style! 😀

It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted

Please be accurate.  I didn’t slight it, I use it as to highlight comparable offers of assistance, to which MSP then responded I think quite eloquently to help me understand a difference in peoples reaction which I hadn’t considered in my reaction.

I keep telling you I’m not arguing with you,

Alright alright

Maybe, just maybe, have a think about how entering a debate centered around race with an apologist approach to the actions of the police, have a think about how that makes you look. I know you’ll just defend it again, but try and think.

Please, please, please read what I wrote! I am not apologising for what they did. A version of events was given and I responded to that with some conclusions. At no point have I ever endorsed what they did, only offered a suggestion that based on the victims actions prior to being shot he may have given them reason to believe he had ill intent. That is absolutely not the same as absolving them of any responsibility for not de-escalating or resolving the situation using non or less violent means.

I have thought long and hard about this which is why I am going to such lengths to defend myself however it is patently obvious that people are focusing on one single aspect of my post rather than what I wrote as a whole.

I also see neither you nor Mehr have seen fit to apologise for your misquoting and slander respectively.

I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is ‘anti racist’. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out ‘anti racist’ each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring ‘anti racist’ points than about anything else.

Well put. We’re all on the same side here, it would do folk well to remember that.

Back on track;

On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.

Oh I have. Surly posted an interview with a black cyclist and the Instagram thread reactions were sickening. The same shit you saw when any company showed solidarity with the movement to be honest but the personal abuse in that case was disgusting.

A link to the article https://surlybikes.com/blog/realities_of_a_black_man_in_the_bike_world

Thanks Kelvin and Squirellking for those links. The surly article was particularly revealing, can’t think of a better example of where the sometimes disparate concerns of cyclist and BLM coincide so acutely. Also appreciate linking to the Surly and not the Instagram site with the associated bile, (I can imagine how vile it could be so I’ll take your word for it)

Incidently, I’m on the look out for a new hardtail, (adds Cotic and Surly to the list). Or rather doesn’t remove them from list, unlike Trek, which are definitely off the list after reading that article!

I’m suggesting that had he complied, according to the version of events you relayed, he would probably be sitting at home now or in a cell.

The footage below suggests that non-compliance with an armed police officer is not the issue, it is the fact that the man with the gun doesn’t view the person on the other end as truly human. You can almost see the moment in the footage where The officer thinks to himself is can’t shoot someone for this’ as his bluff is called.

Is this noncompliance?

We were told, noncompliance is a death sentence. I need an explanation. pic.twitter.com/x3GeMG41Rs

— shannon sharpe (@ShannonSharpe) August 29, 2020

Police-cam footage has just been leaked of the (March 2020) killing of US citizen Daniel Prude. It took me a while to factcheck/find unedited/uncensored footage. Don’t know how long it will be there.

Trump’s USA is now at the point where cops are laughing while having killed a naked, restrained man while he’s compliant and tripping/in need of medical assistance.

View with extreme caution

It’s clear how this will spin and become a civil/race war in the the US. It’s ****. What’s worse is that the UK seems hot on it’s tail.

Are we watching genocide unfold?
Explained away as the victims fault for previous, non compliance, being in the wrong area, driving and even just being black (skin colour = morals according to the misinformed), and arguing my word choice because they feel alienated by the truth.
In the UK we may not have the death rate but we have equal levels of racism, with the government encouraging the statue protectors.

*edit Youtube took the video down so link is broken. Probably for the best.

Full chestcam footage is around 11:58 in length and must be mirrored all over by now. There are a lot of very, very busy censors at work as we speak.

Today feels different again. Even in these weird times I’ve felt so pessimistic about the future since I saw that. Police, up close in HD laughing as they kill a man. I don’t know what I was expecting. Maybe some ambiguity*. Some evidence of hyperbole. No. The verdict of homicide is plain to see, but why was he killed?

RIP Daniel Prude.

Poll: How/does it change things that one of the attendant officers was black?

*Before the inevitable censoring.

In many ways I think things are worse here than in the US. At least in America there’s certain conservative / Republican figures who have expressed an understanding of the situation. Over here, nothing. All conservative figures here are either playing the Trump game or remain sickenenigly silent.

To highlight a sticky problem in all of this. Death caused by excessive restraint by police is a thing in the US

The majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Daniel Prude (a man in need of help yet was suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Daniel Prude, Black Man’

https://eu.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/09/02/daniel-prude-rochester-ny-police-died-march-2020-after-officers-restrained-him/5682948002/

Yet the majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Tony Timpa (a man likewise in need of help and was also suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Tony Timpa’.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/

I find it tremendously difficult to effectively encapsulate in words. But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person’

EDIT *problem of institutional racism

In short, how are race-relations to be improved when individuals are yet still referred to by their skin colour/heritage as if it’s a second surname?

“But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person”

While I see the point, I’d also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it’s probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.

While I see the point, I’d also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it’s probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.

How exactly would that be determined in (say) the two cases I compared? I’ve watched both events via the full-length bodycam footage. It’s **** sad and beyond words what happened to both men. Pretty much identical. Both required help. Both in mental crisis and complicated by drug ingestion. Both are compliant. Both are crushed by the people supposed to be helping them, and both die as a result. Both are audibly mocked in their death (by the very people who killed them) yet nothing I see was of a racial nature. So how does one determine if racial bias is a factor in the restraint/escalation*? If you were an editor/journo how would you determine whether Daniel in this instance was a ‘man’ or a ‘black man’ for the purpose of your piece?

*Escalation ie crush the victim so they are suffocating and then they push back and struggle, which makes cops push harder. Victim fears for life as can’t breathe, so struggles more, screams as an animal in distress. Cops feel perfectly justified in their ‘training’ to push harder, to crush them. They die. Report/cause of death then filed as ‘excited delirium‘/complicated by (name of drug)

As far as I can tell, the standout reason we know the name of Tony Timpa is because he’s the only publicised example of a white person being needlessly killed by police in America – I’m sure he’s not alone, but thecreason, I think, that we see a racial label applied to so many other needless deaths is because that racial seems to be a singularly consistent point. If the police actions (unnecessary shootings and applied force) were applied equally across the population, I think everyone WOULD be chanting “all lives matter”.

Poor Tony’s name came up a lot on my Facebook feed a month or six weeks after George Floyd – I’d not heard of him before, and I would wager good money that none of the right-leaning folks who posted about had, either.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-04-20-21/index.html

Found guilty.

Yep, guilty of all 3 charges which together/run concurrently carry a maximum of 80 years, sentencing in 8 weeks time, the only possible verdict given the evidence but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.

but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.

I’m not so sure it’s a unique problem to the USA though.

Statistically in an interaction with the police in the USA, black people are just as likely to be shot as anyone else (apparently, it was mentioned on the BBC so I presume someone was fact checking). However they are roughly twice as likely to be involved with the police (25% of incidents for a population of 13%).

Why that is, is a different argument (including racism elsewhere).

But look at the UK with disproportionate levels of stop and search etc. Is the reason other countries don’t have the same perceived problem simply because the police don’t have the means?

It’s not finished yet unfortunately, he’ll appeal for sure. Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.

Pff, Maxine Waters didn’t say anything that isn’t obviously true, there’s no way it’s prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal. And watching Republicans who refused to criticise Trump for his incitement call for her to be censured was a disgrace.

Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.

Her comments like the Presidents weren’t played in court, weren’t conveyed to the jury, so had no bearing on proceedings.

Rather quick on the jury deliberation time, normally its a fair bit longer, so it seems the evidence was too overwhelming.

Maxine Waters didn’t say anything that isn’t obviously true

Clearly, however…

there’s no way it’s prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal.

…although he dismissed it, the judge said “I’ll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned”

So, I bet there’ll be an attempt to appeal – doesn’t mean it’ll be successful, but they’ll try.

Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.

And then within a few minutes a 15yo Black Girl has been shot by police in Ohio, apparently the 50th black victim of law enforcement in the US since the George Floyd murder.

TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.

Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.

I have to say, I couldn’t be more pleased at the way this trial has been concluded. The fear that yet another murderer would walk free simply because they wear a badge, was so much that had Chavin been acquitted, or even just handed down a much lesser conviction, this would set US human rights back so much, and cause so much societal damage, not least in the inevitable violence that would have followed. Good to see the US justice system can, sometimes, work properly. This verdict is monumental; it now shows that serving police officers cannot murder people and escape justice. It paves the way for many, many more successful prosecutions of similar murders at the hands of those who are meant to protect and serve. And on a human level, it means George Floyd’s death will not be in vain. And it shows that Black lives DO matter. Early days, but it’s an important step in the right direction.

While I want to agree with that, yer man Chauvin is gonna end up suffocated to death in prison by some big black dude’s knee. And then the cops will step up the targetting of black guys several notches.

Early days, but it’s an important step in the right direction.

Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there, but a long way to go.

Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there…

Don’t be so sure. If you want to be depressed, go and have a look how the good folks of r/Conservative are taking the news.

Here’s a select few quotes about the verdict:

“Maybe he is guilty of all charges, but, you can’t reasonable believe the jury wasn’t tainted, influenced, or intimidated.”

“Wow it was such a open and fair trial, the verdict was definitely not influenced by threats of violence.”

“When you have a jury that is complete fear for their lives if they have an outcome other than guilty with zero protection from an rioting mob egged on by a united states representative. Cowardice is rampant. From the US supreme court to the average person.”

“Kangaroo Court”

“Any reasonable person could see reasonable doubt about guilt on any one of those charges. The jury was intimidated by the mob, the media, and even the fraudulent POTUS himself today. This is a travesty of justice.”

“the only willing participants [in the jury] would be activists anyways”

“I’m praying that things don’t get too crazy in Minnesota over the next while and if they do, I’m praying that the people of Minnesota, who had nothing to do with this case, dosen’t get their businesses looted, burned down, hurt or anything along those lines.”

“Get ready for the mostly peaceful celebration riots.”

“OJ justice: a verdict meant to appease angry, emotional people. The opposite of blind justice.”

…but a long way to go.

Indeed.

TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.

Re TBF – “To be Fair” – is it? What does waving a knife around mean and does that then excuse the fact she’s now dead? I don’t think we know enough yet to conclude it was a fair shooting.

Happy as I am to see the verdict, I don’t actually think that this represents a good test case.

Derek Chauvin’s actions were so obviously wrong and the evidence against him was overwhelming. We literally have an entire murder filmed from start to finish.

It wasn’t a shooting, where the police could claim they: saw a gun, feared for their life; heat of the moment; thought they had reached for their Tazer etc.

A police offer kneeled on a restrained, unarmed man until he suffocated to death while the victim, onlookers and fellow officers pleaded with him to stop. There wasn’t even the thinnest veneer of mitigation from feeling threatened or even it being unintentional.

Its basically an easy case to convict the police and claim that things have improved.

I saw a short bit of the defence summing up on the telly, the lawyer invited the jury to ‘look at his body language” in a 20 sec clip filmed front on with clear sounds of the crowd protesting. His body language looked very much like he was loving the attention and his expression was that of a cat that got the cream. That’d have done it for me if I was on the jury, I hope he goes down for a long time and any appeals fail of course.

TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.

Police can ONLY shoot at people if they fear for their own lives or that of someone else. This is essential. Shooting people because they are resisting arrest, for example is NOT grounds for shooting, otherwise that means that resisting arrest is a capital offence AND judgement and sentence is handed down without trial. But you’d be amazed at the number of people who support police shooting people because they resist arrest. They say ‘well, shouldn’t have resisted, they got what was coming’. No, it doesn’t work like that.

I haven’t watched the knife girl video, so I don’t know if she was about to stab someone or not.