For some reason I’ve just caught up on this. I think the US is now on the brink of full-blown race war. So far the black population and other protesters have shown extraordinary restraint in the face of police and now white supremacist violence. How long before they start shooting back? Given Trumps anarchy-in-the-US campaign message I strongly suspect this isn’t a coincidence. A race war is the only card he has left.

I’m not talking about this single event, my comments are for general use of weapons. You can’t use a lethal weapon for non lethal purposes. A pistol, rifle, shotgun, are to be used for lethal intent only. There are other tools available that should be used for non lethal intentions. (I know death can occur but generally a tazer is less likely to kill than a bullet)
Imagine giving permission to use an automatic weapon for non lethal use, there would be awful lot more civil liberty cases than currently.

. So really they (the cops) are being fed incorrect information about the dangers the

I was referencing the quality not quantity. The fact that they face much higher risks of meeting someone armed, someone willing to use violence or a weapon to prevent them from doing their jobs. Farmers, construction, truck drivers etc face much higher risk of death or injury than police but much lower basically non-exist risk of the above.

Just FYI, many police services use ammunition which fragments on impact to minimise the risk of ricochet injury. They are also trained to watch for the risk of crossfire, missed shots, background etc.

I think the US is now on the brink of full-blown race war.

I am seriously worried this is the outcome. Although I think it will be much more than a race war. It has become common and acceptable to demonize anyone who isn’t “us” that anyone who isn’t ‘us’ is something less than ‘us’. Politics, race, the job they do where they live etc. The factions are so divided and so willing to dismiss the rights of others ( including some of the comments on threads like this).

History has many examples of what happens when you de-humanise people who aren’t like you and it never ends well for anyone. I hope they are able to step back from that brink before it’s too late. I fear they won’t.

w00dster
Subscriber

I’m not talking about this single event, my comments are for general use of weapons. You can’t use a lethal weapon for non lethal purposes. A pistol, rifle, shotgun, are to be used for lethal intent only. There are other tools available that should be used for non lethal intentions. (I know death can occur but generally a tazer is less likely to kill than a bullet)

Yup. Basically, talking about shooting to wound only causes problems because the only time you should ever use a gun is to kill something. If the goal isn’t to kill, use a tool that’s not designed for that job. All embedding the idea of “shoot to wound” would do, is make it even more likely for people to get shot.

Cell phone video shows Kenosha Wisconsin police officers in an military vehicle telling armed White militia members they "appreciate them being there" and giving them bottled water; while in the background cops can be heard ordering protestors to disperse. from Bad_Cop_No_Donut

Holy blooming wow….

The bacon cajoling with armed white militia….

Bloody hell!

US Civil war v2 on the brink for sure.

I am seriously worried this is the outcome.

The only thing preventing one right now is the reluctance of the protesters to take up arms. I can see why because it will be a bloodbath as they don’t stand a chance against the federal government and heavily armed militias. The civil rights people who were around in the 60s know this and thankfully have managed to keep the focus on peaceful protest but I wonder how long they will be able to hold the tide back. All it will take is a few of the gangs to get together and go on a cop-killing spree.

I can see why because it will be a bloodbath as they don’t stand a chance against the federal government and heavily armed militias

At least until November, when hopefully a few adults take over and try to address the issues.

There has been an increasing amount of rebirth of the Black Panther type activism in some areas of the US. Including groups of heavily armed African Americans who are copying the model of the rightish militias. They have so far demonstrated a calm restraint in the face of heavy provocation.

Holy blooming wow….

The bacon cajoling with armed white militia….

That guy with the cross-strap holster talking to the police is the one on the social media vids who shot and killed two people. It did look like some of the protestors trying to get him had handguns.

That guy with the cross-strap holster talking to the police is the one on the social media vids who shot and killed two people

So wait, are the police officially supporting a murderer?   How is the militia legal?

US Civil war v2 on the brink for sure.

Yup, the shooter is a member of the Boogaloo Bois. Their aim is to have a second civil war to end Americas problems, they’re an extreme right wing group but there’s a twist… There’s two factions, some are also supporting BLM, perhaps to incite violence and devalue the protests?
It appears that they have the blessing of the police too https://www.ibtimes.co.in/who-are-boogaloo-bois-what-does-boogaloo-movement-want-everything-you-must-know-827103

Charged with murder but, the narratives already been set, he’s a hero for the right.

BREAKING: Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, has been charged with first-degree murder in Kenosha, Wisconsin, according to Lake County, Illinois Clerk of Courts records

— Claire Goforth (@clairenjax) August 26, 2020

So, charged with first degree murder, why the FSCK is he out on the streets?

How is the militia legal?

It’s in the Constitution. “The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights provides: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of the free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Generally the courts have said that the militia referred to is organised by each state, separate from the US government armed forces, not civilian groups. There is nothing illegal about possession, carrying either openly or concealed, in most states of a firearm, including assault rifles. They are also guaranteed the right to gather in free association. So if a group of heavily armed people want to group themselves together and call themselves a militia, there are no laws being broken. Until they foment insurrection, commit an illegal or terrorist act. Frightening isn’t it?

faerie
Subscriber

Yup, the shooter is a member of the Boogaloo Bois. Their aim is to have a second civil war to end Americas problems, they’re an extreme right wing group but there’s a twist… There’s two factions, some are also supporting BLM, perhaps to incite violence and devalue the protests?

It’s really complicated tbh and if it weren’t so grim it’d be fascinating. Despite being super right wing, some of these guys genuinely support BLM, because it fits with their own thinking on state power and excessive police intervention etc. You can be as racist as all hell but still be against people getting murdered by the police, is the short version.

He even walks past the police after the incident carrying the weapon, with people shouting “Arrest him, he just shot someone”.
The police did nothing.
Remember, this protest was sparked because the police shot an unarmed black man 7 times in the back. The governor has now called in the National Guard, they’re stoking the flames. I can’t see this ending well

I see that the footage of him being tackled by bystanders after the shooting is being falsely circulated as being the initial shooting- ie, people are claiming he was being attacked and fired only in self defence.

So, charged with first degree murder, why the FSCK is he out on the streets?

Presumably that footage was shot before he did. Presumably.

The factions are so divided and so willing to dismiss the rights of others ( including some of the comments on threads like this).

History has many examples of what happens when you de-humanise people who aren’t like you and it never ends well for anyone.

Absolutely this.

I think the US is now on the brink of full-blown race war.

Remember when we used to laugh at such a concept then take pity on the deluded nazi that came out with it? I miss those days 🙁

It’s odd how much life imitates art, it’s like someone, somewhere is a big 2000ad fan and has thought “that looks pretty good actually”. Who will police the police?

w00dster Subscriber
I’m not talking about this single event, my comments are for general use of weapons. You can’t use a lethal weapon for non lethal purposes. A pistol, rifle, shotgun, are to be used for lethal intent only. There are other tools available that should be used for non lethal intentions. (I know death can occur but generally a tazer is less likely to kill than a bullet)

Some of the confusion seems to have partly come about due to the attention given to the possibility of the RUC and army operating a shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland in the 1980s. People have made the assumption from the term that the alternative was shoot-to-wound, or something like that.

As I understand it, what shoot-to-kill actually means is that a suspect is shot without warning, and without being given an opportunity to surrender first.

Squirelking,

Where did I say the Police were fair game. Your twisting my words like a Talk Radio host would. Or if not deliberately twisting you are misunderstanding the relationship between the public and the state.

The safety of the public should always matter more than the Police officer. Otherwise we live in a fascist state where we serve the state rather than the state serving us.

For reference, I quoted the words “Black Lives matter more than blue lives” from a video uploaded by a black American police officer. Perhaps she can explain it to you. She helpfully explains all of the points raised by other posters on this thread in the last 24 hours.

I knew what I said would be contentious, thus the ‘here goes’ introduction. I did that because I’m tired of skirting around some of the whataboutery that has appeared on this forum the last 3 months. I’m tired of the police being proffered some ‘special status. They do a job that they chose to do and as Nick c pointed out, It doesn’t even come close to being the most dangerous job

Respect needs to be earned not demanded. If you proffer respect to an institution without subjecting it to scrutiny then you are subservient to the idea of a fascist state.

The manner in which we sentimentalise those who serve is a slippery slope to fascism. This craze for sentimentalism began with the death of Diana and has since been exploited by those who would design an authoritarian state with a subservient population.

It never used to be like this. I’m old enough to remember the Falklands War, where those who died were buried where they fell, in the same manner in which soldiers who had gone before them had been for Centuries. Then we had the Iraq War, where Tony Blair decided to give the fallen the ‘Diana’ treatment, euolgising and sentimentalising them rather than seeing them for what they were. They were Warriors, not saints. This sentimental tendency has become an all encompasing political tool that can be applied to the to the Police, the NHS and other agencies for the purpose of remindimg us that we are not worthy.

This sentimentalism is insidious and has began to invade all discourse. It is virtue signalling in the most dangerous form. It gives those like squirelking the opportunity to point the finger at me and accuse me of declaring open season on the Police, employing a hunting metaphor to insinuate that I am encouraging people to attack them.

Squirelking is playing the same game of culture wars as Trump and Johnston. I am not accusing him of having the same nefarious intent as those two scumbags but I am suggesting that he is naive and has become a pawn who is being manipulated by those who aim to sow discord.

I’m sure squirelking is nice guy and not a fascist but he should really take a look at himself before he accuses me of advocating violence. He needs to find a way of thinking for himself and stop getting caught up in the web of sentimantalism that is being spun around us.

Where did I say the Police were fair game.

Okay, let’s just rewind to what you said:

Blue lives do not matter as much as black lives, or any other lives.

The police chose to put their life on the line in order to protect and serve the public. The public are not expected to put their life on the line to protect and serve the police.

A police officer saying they thought their safety ‘might’ be in jeapordy is never a valid excuse to shoot someone.

If you disagree with this then you are a fascist.

So, let’s begin.

Blue lives do not matter as much as black lives, or any other lives.

You are dehumanising these people as “blue lives”. You then say their lives matter less than anyone elses. So from that statement I drew my ‘open season’ comment.

They are people, and like people represent a diverse (and sometimes not so) range of backgrounds and reasons for doing what they do. Without wanting to go “not all men” you should be mindful of that.

The police chose to put their life on the line in order to protect and serve the public. The public are not expected to put their life on the line to protect and serve the police.

That may be so but that doesn’t make it a suicide mission. Even in this country we have a right to defend ourselves and, in the case of NI can still use guns to do so, otherwise you may use a “weapon of opportunity”.

A police officer saying they thought their safety ‘might’ be in jeapordy is never a valid excuse to shoot someone.

And again, I draw your attention to the right to self defence.

If you disagree with this then you are a fascist.

I disagree entirely. So I’m a fascist?

But onwards:

I knew what I said would be contentious, thus the ‘here goes’ introduction. I did that because I’m tired of skirting around some of the whataboutery that has appeared on this forum the last 3 months. I’m tired of the police being proffered some ‘special status. They do a job that they chose to do and as Nick c pointed out, It doesn’t even come close to being the most dangerous job.

It was contentious because you basically made a particularly distasteful statement without a shred of irony then signed off declaring that anyone who disagreed was a fascist. I’m sorry but there’s only one person trying to suppress opposition to their views and sure as **** isn’t me.

Respect needs to be earned not demanded. If you proffer respect to an institution without subjecting it to scrutiny then you are subservient to the idea of a fascist state.

Nobody is disagreeing with this, least of all me. At all. If you’d bothered reading my later posts instead of concocting this word soup of feeble character assassination you might have noticed that.

This sentimentalism is insidious and has began to invade all discourse. It is virtue signalling in the most dangerous form. It gives those like squirelking the opportunity to point the finger at me and accuse me of declaring open season on the Police, employing a hunting metaphor to insinuate that I am encouraging people to attack them.

You have declared that their lives matter less and it is never acceptable to defend themselves. “They knew what they were signing up for”.

Squirelking is playing the same game of culture wars as Trump and Johnston. I am not accusing him of having the same nefarious intent as those two scumbags but I am suggesting that he is naive and has become a pawn who is being manipulated by those who aim to sow discord.

I’m sure squirelking is nice guy and not a fascist but he should really take a look at himself before he accuses me of advocating violence. He needs to find a way of thinking for himself and stop getting caught up in the web of sentimantalism that is being spun around us.

Okay, first off, that’s just rude. At least have the decency to address me directly.

I’m playing no such game and your suggestion is well off the mark. I am being objective and not afraid of calling people out on either side, even if I otherwise agree with them. I’m getting sentimental about nothing other than the fact that police are still human beings. That isn’t promoting a “culture war” that’s just being a decent ****** person! If you actually knew me at all you would know I’ve been nothing but critical of this backslapping circle-jerk echo chamber for years, I actually take time to listen to people even if I disagree with them and I don’t suffer fools gladly. Maybe you should be the one learning to think for himself and try to gain a bit of empathy and humanity whilst you’re at it.

I’ll repeat what cromolyolly said:

History has many examples of what happens when you de-humanise people who aren’t like you and it never ends well for anyone.

If you want to be the better person, start now.

Given Inksters admission on another thread that he likes to provoke people, he’s on the list of people who I now take with a pinch if salt on here. 🙄

Which is self defeating as he often makes valid points amongst the posturing.

Discussion and observation shouldn’t just be about manipulating words (‘tropes’) and accusing someone of being a whateverlabel. Scoring right-on virtue points is pathetic when looking at serious current events. You get the odd ‘Jeremy, peace be upon him’ type comment but just take that in as someone’s current level of consciousness. Calling them a fascist (you do need to check up on the defining features of fascism) and winning yourself a rainbow badge is an attempt to end discussion and just have an accusatory screaming and screeching contest instead. Some people might like that but for many this board is informative, funny, discursive, helpful and is much more than bum jokes and self-righteously ‘calling people out’.
Anyway, anyone not seen it, check out the little YT on Christian Cooper and his sister, what a cool dude!

More cash,

The other day on the Dawn Butler thread you suggested I cared too much about racism. That isn’t taking me with a pinch of salt, that’s throwing chilli powder in my face.

Squirrelking,

I quoted the phrase from a black American police officer. Her contention was that you had to explain the situation as crudely as that before the penny would drop. If you are calling me out for making that comment then you are calling her out too.

An extrodinary amount of unarmed black people die after being shot by police in the US. An extrodinary number of police face no sanction because they use the excuse ‘I thought my life was in danger’. This has led to a situation where the safety of the Police is put before the safety of the public. The officer in the video was aware that her first duty is to protect the public, not to protect herself. She asserted that many of her follow officers neither follow nor understand this principle.

You took a phrase that I quoted from a police officer and from it construed that I saw the Police as “fair game”. To understand the role of the police in a democracy is not to ‘dehumanise them. My follow up post talked about how we sentimentalise the Police and others who serve and how that has been employed in a culture war. The speed with which you lept to accuse me of dehumanising the police suggests to me you are caught up in this dangerous web of sentimentality.

Anyhow, you don’t have to listen to me, or respond to me either. You could listen to the video I linked to. In it the officer presented the problem in a conceptual way, with extraordinary clarity and articularcy.

Gary Younge’s always worth a squiz (if it hasn’t been done):

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/5/june/black-lives-matter-george-floyd-the-question-of-violence-gary-young

You took a phrase that I quoted from a police officer and from it construed that I saw the Police as “fair game”.

Not that I want to interfere in this bunfight, but if we look at it as a race/culture war then it’s fairly easy to argue that the police are fair game, and are not humans, but combatants. The only thing that prevents a descent into violence is mutual respect and/or fear. The police in the US long ago gave up any pretence of respecting black lives, and the only thing preventing escalation is the unbelievable restraint of the black community and the fear of what might happen if they took up arms. I’m surprised they haven’t already to be honest. Lets not forget that in this case the police are the aggressors, and are not defending themselves.

“So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything.”
Scott Woods

I can understand Inksters perspective, it’s extremely difficult to moderate fear, frustration and anger when racism is highly emotive and a lived reality for some of us, whilst for others it’s just the topic du jour. Being white I’ve got cheek to say I’m tired of arguing about racism, but I can’t walk away because I’m emotionally and physically invested in it. Each time there’s something on the news about racism my young girls get physically and verbally abused, the Danny Baker photo earned them 3 beatings; and I was labelled an extremist for saying that casual racist banter is not ok. I lost my job because of the frequency of calls from the school or the police. I’ve had to explain to the Head of Education and a Chief Superintendent what institutional and systemic racism is, out of a dozen incidents of abuse including children, adults and a teacher there’s been 2 teenagers charged and that was for theft rather than the racist abuse.

There’s no doubt that the police have a difficult job, I couldn’t handle the pressure they’re under. Whilst I respect the individual, I don’t agree with the institution which does have militarised ethics and comradery based on class, gender, race and sex. As they are in a position of power these views are often amplified, especially at the moment. Looking at the figures lockdown has exposed the huge inequalities between people who experience racism and those who do not, which have been fuelled by the deaths of black people; including here in the UK when the officers took selfies with two murdered sisters after a BLM protest. Is that how my kids are viewed when they need police assistance?

It’s a difficult but necessary discussion, one I’ve learned to listen to without comment until I am informed and calm enough to offer a qualified opinion.

Be kind.

I’m playing no such game and your suggestion is well off the mark. 

Are you the same person who said on the previous page that you had no sympathy for Jacob Blake? Obvious troll is obvious.

History has many examples of what happens when you de-humanise people who aren’t like you and it never ends well for anyone.

Now ,where’s that Ebike thread ? 😛

I quoted the phrase from a black American police officer.

With absolutely zero context. The context wasn’t set until I challenged you on it. Having looked at it I context I can now see what you were saying but it should be quite obvious that your original statement has a very different meaning in the way you said it.

Are you the same person who said on the previous page that you had no sympathy for Jacob Blake? Obvious troll is obvious.

Again, context. I made that statement under the condition that the version of events faerie presented was true. They may or may not be and she was careful to say as much however given recent events you would have to be pretty stupid to think breaking your restraints and walking off to a vehicle in order to do one of several things is a good idea. I have in no way endorsed the polices actions but if someone chose to run across a busy motorway as a shortcut and got injured I wouldn’t blame the driver that hit them either. Sure, they could perhaps have done things differently but they got to where they were via their own free will.

Disagreement is not trolling but you’re right, my statement is as contextually deficient as inksters so I apologise for not making it clearer.

Oh FWIW I saw friend has posted something on Facebook with the same sentiment but rather less ambiguous terminology:

Blue lives don’t exist

Stop drawing equivalence between racial identity and a job.

Your career is a choice, being black isn’t.

Sends the same message but doesn’t need an entire explaination to put it in context.

I have in no way endorsed the polices actions but if someone chose to run across a busy motorway as a shortcut and got injured I wouldn’t blame the driver that hit them either. Sure, they could perhaps have done things differently but they got to where they were via their own free will.

ah so the copper was already shooting his gun and Jacob Blake was foolish enough move in front of him.

“If we’re required to comply with the police without question under any circumstances or face penalty of death, then we have no civil liberties”
Bree Newsome

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Blue lives don’t exist

Sorry that’s bollox. I might be a little behind in this little spat, but it’s not just a job. You can’t equate it to a racial identity, but you can equate it to combatants in a war. I wouldn’t say the same of police in the UK as thankfully we still have a (fairly) strong social contract, but In the US the cops are no different to soldiers. When they put on the uniform they stop being human and start being someone’s enemy. Just like soldiers if they don’t like it the dehumanising aspect of their job they don’t have to join up.

“Blue lives do not matter as much as black lives, or any other lives.”

I think this is almost right, but not quite. Lives matter equally but are spent/risked/lost differently. When you send a soldier into a war zone, you’re not saying that their life doesn’t matter or is less important than another life; you’re saying that this life matters but it is still worth risking.

Or to put it differently, your life matters just as much when you do something that risks it.

But their are professions, life choices, sports, etc that are inherently risky. Literally the reason we have fire fighters, soldiers, police forces is to do things that most people wouldn’t. If someone is trapped in a building, the fire service doesn’t say “well our team’s lives don’t matter” or “our people’s lives are less important”, but they will still take people who’re perfectly safe in a station, and put them into a burning building, because THAT’S THE ****ING POINT.

Blue lives matter logic would lead to them setting fire to the building in advance to make sure that it couldn’t go on fire and risk their lives later.

When Echo chambers go bad…

Inkster – Please quote me saying that.

Though that was one of the threads that made me come to the conclusion that whilst I agree with most of your points of view on several issues on the forum, I dislike the way you put them across.