I have just got a sarcen zen 2 (a bargain, ridden three times since weds loving it), and the spec says a formula dc51 front hub 15mm bolt thru.

Anyhooooooo – The front hub has already devloped some play, and I was v surprised to find that despite being 15mm, it was cup and cone! (and mildly peeved).

What is the problem with cup and cone?

Works extremely well.

Disappointed that you can adjust it rather than have to shell out for new bearings?

What I love about sealed bearings is that its a hub for life, bearings wear out, drift em out whack a new set in happy days. When cups wear out its only use is for recycling. Otherwise your comments are totally correct, lovely and welcome. XX

+1 toys19

🙂

If you maintain the bearings they can last ages – it’s not wear but pitting through lack of maintenance that kills them.

The use of the wheel leads to wear and wear causes pitting unfortunately. I also cant be arsed with the maintaince issue, pissing ball bearings all over the workshop floor and never ever, ever, ever being able to get the adjustment exactly right. I love sealed bearings for the fact I can forget about them till they fail and just twang them out for a new cheap set. I mean one is maintained with care, love, a dextrous hand and a bit of magic, the other is maintained with a big hammer and lots of bashing. Whats not to adore about bashing things.

toys19 – Member
I also cant be arsed with the maintaince

Nothing wrong with the hubs then – it’s just you?

what’s not to like about squirting some grease in every now and then and adjusting?

Hate to say it but I agree with cynic-al, I’ve got C&C hubs on the tourer, they’ve from the 80’s and I think the ones on the fixie rolled off some production line before my parents were born!

Nothing wrong with the hubs then – it’s just you?

That appears to be completely correct. I agreed that cup and cone was excellent, I just don’t like it. Am I not allowed to not like it? They are wrong for me. They might suit those of us who are puritanical and love to create work for themselves. Or those who adore squirting grease and adjusting, happy days for you if thats the case. I like my hammer. Jeez what is wrong with everyone tonight, you are all just looking for a fight.

In the meantime, my main point was that I wonder if you were at all surprised at a 15mm hub with cup and cone? If not,or so, please do comment.

not surprised.

What I was surprised by was specialized ‘own brand’ rear hubs, they use 2 cartridge bearings, one under the disk mounts and one by the cassette lockring, as a result hey seized in just a few rides, wish they’d stuck with cheep shimano hubs rather than going for the perceived upgrade TBH.

Don’t Shimano do c&c hubs in 15mm?

bigyinn – Member
Don’t Shimano do c&c hubs in 15mm?

Correct

Nothing wrong with cup and cone, as long as it’s good. But, all the Formula ones I’ve had have been pretty iffy- poor sealing, and the races don’t seem very durable (I’ve got a 21-year-old Exage in one bike, which I always mention in these threads, but the Formula hubs in my carrera were worn within a year. I could have prevented it but only with constant servicing and cleaning, every couple of wet rides.

So cup and cone = fine, bad cup and cone = not fine.

i wonder why shimano didnt do c&c in 20mm as well. surely the same principals apply?

They do, don’t they?

They do, don’t they?

Google says yes

not enough space between flange and axle…also 20mm is more of a premium thing.

Have to say toys, I wouldn’t be concerned that your hub was C+C, but that it was formula.

C&C is practical for 15mm (one of the reasons why the 15mm standard was created – Shimano wanted to continue C&C) and not quite so simple for 20mm – going C&C for that would be a bit tricky if you wanted to keep weight down.

Cartridge bearing hubs will wear out if you keep drifting the carts out with a hammer and screwdriver – pretty much the same as if you keep boshing headset cups into a frame and drifting them out again.

Cartridges are great if you have money but not time and don’t worry excessively about things like drag. Otherwise, C&C hubs are lovely things.I still regret selling my pre-parallax XTR hubs…

well given that its loose already has left slightly annoyed, not much confidence in formula so far, even more so that I can’t just fix it with a bearing of my own choosing. I shall dismantle and sort out tomorrow and report back.

PS I have a 20mm formula cartridge bearing hub which I somehow aqcuired, it has so far been excellent.

I haven’t had to take my 20mm slx cup and cones apart yet.

Just as well as I bet the cone spanners are mighty hard to find.

“When cups wear out its only use is for recycling”
You’re supposed to check, adjust, regrease and periodically replace the ball bearings (and maybe cone nuts) before you wear the hub cups out
Like you might drop and change oil in the lowers/air can on your fork/shock before the stantion/shaft anodising wears out

It could be worse, at least it looks like you might be able to use normal spanners on that. I think shimano cup/cone 15/20mm hubs require some bigger ££ shimano only? cone spanners

“never ever, ever, ever being able to get the adjustment exactly right”
The hubs cups are probably already pitted/worn. Worn ball bearings and/or cone nuts may also be playing a part
If everything is new or unworn they’re a doddle

“who adore squirting grease and adjusting”
With my pitted rear (I didnt open it for about 18months) XT C/C hub. I probably open it every 6months to put new ball bearings in. regrease, adjusting is okay, but made slightly fiddly because of the pitting, then crank up the nuts nice and tight and they dont undo themselves

Cartridges are great if you have money but not time and don’t worry excessively about things like drag. Otherwise, C&C hubs are lovely things.I still regret selling my pre-parallax XTR hubs…

This pretty much sounds like me – elsewhere on this forum in the past I have expounded the virtues of cup and cone – if you want the fastest rolling wheel cup and cone is the way to go. I am mildly frustrated by the discussion to be honest as I made my position very clear at the top – I agreed that they are adjustable, work well etc, but the practicalites of them are just not for me.

I was more interested in the prevalence of cup on cone on 15mm (and 20mm) hubs and this has been enlightening as I didn’t realise shimano even did a c&c 20mm hub. I still won’t be able to adjust them correctly..

Don’t agree with them, cup and cone are shit and noone cares if they roll faster.

Take the wheel back and tell them to sort it, happy days.

Hands up everyone who thinks they can feel a difference in drag between cup and cone, and cartridge. You can see it- spin it in a workstand- but feel it when riding?

They do, don’t they?

well i’ll be….

the more you know!

Every time you learn a new thing it pushes out an old one you know- be careful!

OK cup and cone lovers, where can I find a 23mm cone spanner to fit these 15mm bolt thru hubs then?

edit found one!

chainoidreactionus

Dont bother

The difference in real friction is tiny in comparison to all the other losses on the bike.

3 rides old and time for a quick tighten all over I reckon. The time spent generating your initial post would have covered it. I’m sure your LBS will ‘service’ it for you if you’re not able.

Stands by for ‘Surprised by this gear cable’ post…

Euro – Member
3 rides old and time for a quick tighten all over I reckon.

Seriously? I have XTR hubs that have done several thousand miles and are still running perfectly without ever having been adjusted.

druidh – Member

Euro – Member
3 rides old and time for a quick tighten all over I reckon.
Seriously? I have XTR hubs that have done several thousand miles and are still running perfectly without ever having been adjusted.

+1

Pretty sure my Mrs’ XT 20mm front wheel is cup and cone.

Madness trying to work on that.

Seriously? I have XTR hubs that have done several thousand miles and are still running perfectly without ever having been adjusted.

I meant a general once over the whole bike.

cartridge bearings p#ss all over cup and cone, much less maintenance = more ride time. if youre into fettling thats fine but id rather be riding. each to their own tho hey !

^^^ hows the rigid SS belt drive solid tyred fixed gear bike going these days?

cup and cone involve a little amount of maintenance and that is all

i would not base a purchase of a hub on whether it was cartridge or cup and cone as both work well.

i did my time at the kitchen table with a tube of lithium grease and a load of rags when i started riding 25 years ago, im not sorry those days are gone. cart’s make sense to me 8)