Stupid question about exercise and weight loss

So what’s the verdict on fasted cardio then?

Bananas would be great… if they were a less awkward shape.

I was going to suggest some storage solutions but I’ll bet you can guess where I was going with that…

Don’t get me wrong. i can ride for hours on air and water, but only by managing my intensity at a level that is below a ‘normal’ ride for me.

This will improve as you train your body to use fat more effiecently. It will be crap at first as you will feel slow but eventually you will be able to ride at high intensity without needing easy access carbs during the ride.

The has two benefits, weight loss is one but you will also be less suceptable to bonking on a long ride as you body will be better at using fat for energy.

will give it a go. Cheaper than energy bars for the winter. If you hear stories of a bloke found curled up by the side of the A25, you’re to blame.

So true! I’ve recently taken to carrying a little Tupperware container of peanuts to college or on a long ride etc. It holds 200g, so I typed that into the Internet to see how many calories. 1,134!!!!

A lot of research on all calories not being equal though. I also read somewhere a study about nuts (cashews I think but I suspect it applies to all) that although the portion size measured was around 600kCal the body only actually accessed a small portion of that. THIS is an old article byt covers the gist of it from what I remember.

Anybody read the 4hr body by Tim Ferriss – http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-4-Hour-Body-incredible-superhuman/dp/0091939526

very interesting read (but with a fair bit of nonsense) but iirc essentially stating that –

> weight loss is down to diet/exercise/internal chemical balance (ie what you eat affecting hormones and how much you’re able to absorb/burn).

> you only need to do a minimum amount of exercise to ‘trigger’ the optimum weight loss/calorie burn. Anything beyond that is diminishing return

molgrips – Member
…pretty much a pure sprint athlete in those days.

What events were you competing in?

Was the caffeine gel all you had for 11 hours?

I think with the gels and stuff…everyone is different
I do loads of road riding…..I never cruise…always hard and fast..when my legs left me

And I have bonked many times and it’s a horrible feeling and it takes up to hours to replace your burned up carbs.

I find I can burn out my carbs in 2 hours….
Now I take with me 1 gel , and 800 cl bottle with 3 teaspoons of glucose init…..and I find I can last for fours solid riding get home and still feel good…sometimes I don’t need the gel it’s there as a back up…

My point is everyone is different , sometimes the gels are needed…..just try to fuel your ride as best you can…coz bonking ain’t fun

eventually you will be able to ride at high intensity without needing easy access carbs during the ride

Yeah but not as high as if you did have carbs.

Cynic al – you sound like you are trying to start an argument?

My point is everyone is different

Very true but you can also change how your body works, to a point.

I agree on riding hard. As I think I said the only real reason I use them is practicality. My hard riding is not the same as my racing, nothing makes me push as hard as pinning a number on in a bunch and the relentless nature is rarely replicated on training rides so there is always time to chew.

In your case Cheekyget that is not the gel specifically it is the food generally. I bet if you had a handful of jelly babies and not the gel it would have the same effect – it doesn’t need to be sugar wrapped up in a lot of marketing.

brassneck I can believe that. We don’t operate at 100% efficiency in terms of nutrient absorption (look at sweetcorn!). I’m not sure what the method is for determining calories of food but I would guess there is a difference between the test and what our bodies actually get.

I’m not sure what the method is for determining calories of food

You burn it and measure the heat output, in layman’s terms.

There are some good you tube vids of people ‘testing the calorific content’ of pringles*

* nearly burning their lab down.

Yeah but not as high as if you did have carbs.

That’s not true. Your body stores glycogen. If you have trained your body to be good at using fat as an energy source you will use less glycogen for a given intensity and more fat. So when you put in an effort there is my glycogen left to call on. It doesn’t need to be supplied in the moment by food in your guts.

Eventually if you run out of glycogen, no matter how chubby you are and how good your body is a using fat as a fuel, you will bonk. But until that glycogen is gone you can still ride at very high intensities. Carbs won’t magically let you train harder, they will just fuel your body to replenish your glycogen stores.

And here’s an interesting development…

Metabolism ‘master switch’?

I have been on a push to lose some weight recently so have been doing 1 hour, high intensity road rides fasted, I feel a massive (negative) difference compared to having some porridge or toast before leaving.

I really hope it is helping with the weight loss because the last few miles home are pretty unpleasant and I have to fight the urge to burst through the door and eat everything in sight within 30 seconds.

“It doesn’t need to be supplied in the moment by food in your guts”

Hm. I suspect there is a difference between blood glucose from food and muscle glycogen stores, but only based on my own experience. Would be keen to read some science on that.

but way less than the sports science folks would have you believe, which is 2-3 gels per hour or equiv for someone of my body mass,

I think the idea behind this is that if you’re training for speed/endurance rather than weight loss you don’t want to be calorie deficient, you want your muscles working at peak efficiency and not to be limited by the energy available. When I’m doing long distance runs (and I’m at my target weight) two gels / hour sounds about right, maybe even a little low. (Long distance here is >2.5-3 hours, I wouldn’t bother with anything for less than 1.5 and may or may not for a 2 hour run).

While racing I’d be aiming to have two gels / hour + feed stations + all the water I want.

To us weekend warriors, racing is the same as our weekend rides, I want to buzz along on the flat, be pushing hard on the hills, and ‘racing’ myself. OK, nothing makes you work quite as hard as a number board and some stripey tape, but I still want to fuel properly so I can enjoy riding hard. Hence a gel every 30-40 mins or so, or similar (yes, bananas or flapjack or jelly babies too, but i quite like gels for the convenience)

If I had limitless time I’d be able to do more long and slow, but I don’t.

So – to today. Two espressos for breakfast and then out. Fine for about 80 mins, albeit not pushing as much as I would (first 20 mins is always rel easy to warm the motor up), keeping to about 80% or lower. Then I reached staples lane, not steep but a couple of sections and a sustained pull. And that’s where it felt like the plug was being taken out. I was surprised how quick; not bonk quick but heavy legged almost immediately. Went over the top and down combe lane into shere and had a gel there for the pull up to pitch hill quarry, which felt normal again. Down into ewhurst, right up barhatch going left onto hamlets and up the other climb to the same place at the top of winterfold, then home via Farley green, Albury, back of new lands, etc, with one more gel somewhere along the way. 40 miles, 850m climbing, 2:45 riding and only 4 slicesnof toast when I got home!!

had a gel there for the pull up to pitch hill quarry, which felt normal again

Do gels work fast for you? I’ve always found there’s a lag of about 20-30 minutes?

Do gels work fast for you? I’ve always found there’s a lag of about 20-30 minutes?

I find they take a bit less than that, but not immediate. Maybe 10 minutes or so.

I was surprised how quick; not bonk quick but heavy legged almost immediately.

Yeah – with me it’s like, I’m riding along fine, feeling great, there’s a short steep up, let’s hammer up it ooooaaarrgghh.. that hurts, now I’m knackered. Then fine after a couple of minutes.

Let us know how you are tomorrow or the next ride jonv 🙂

10 mins or so – so necking it just as I crossed the a25, by the time I was on the foothills of Mont Pitch it was starting to have effect.

Last ride for a couple of weeks though, off on hollibobs tomorrow, but will give it another go when I’m bàck.

Subbed to read later, interesting thread 🙂

About the not eating fat as it makes you fat thing, i’ve had the best lean gains off high fat, high protein diet. Carbs spike the pancreas into producing insulin, insulin is a signal for store excess kcals as fat, usually around waist. In my experience refined carbs, simple sugars etc when in excess calorific state have more potential to develop that 1pac.

About the not eating fat as it makes you fat thing, i’ve had the best lean gains off high fat, high protein diet. Carbs spike the pancreas into producing insulin, insulin is a signal for store excess kcals as fat, usually around waist. In my experience refined carbs, simple sugars etc when in excess calorific state have more potential to develop that 1pac.

and the countries leading the obesity league have what sort of diet?

@wilbert too much refined sugar AND fat i’d wager. But its the sugar which adds kcals very easily. Fat satisfies gives a feeling of fullness. Sugar and refined carbs don’t just causes blood insulin spikes, an integar to fat storage. The resultant insulin crash needing another carb laden calorie pick me up.

USA loves high fructose corn syrup, packed in all the fizzy drinks. All the low fat diet stuff has oodles of sugar instead.

Have a read here, basically unless your weight training, when in a none post exercise state, insulin from excess carbs isn’t good 🙂

Crux of it here

“Conversely, when carbohydrates aren’t readily available and fat or protein is the primary source, higher levels of the hormone glucagon combined with lower levels of blood carbohydrate can lead to a higher rate of fat burning.2 Through manipulating your source of readily available fuel, different energy substrates can be used as fuel for exercise. “

and info on insulin here

“
What is Insulin?

Insulin is an extremely anabolic hormone that will make or break your physique. Too little and you’re doomed to flat muscles, poor recovery, and pre-shrinking your affliction t-shirts. Too much and you’ll resemble the Michelin Man and suffer from myriad health problems.

Insulin is a hormone made in the pancreas, an organ located behind the stomach. The pancreas contains clusters of cells called islets. Beta cells within the islets store and release insulin into the blood. Insulin plays a major role in metabolism. The digestive tract breaks down carbohydrates into glucose, but its with the help of insulin that cells are able to absorb glucose and use it for energy.5

insulin regulates nutrient entry into muscle cells. When insulin is seldom elevated, then muscle growth related benefits won’t occur. A higher carbohydrate intake when your body is increasingly sensitive, such as post-workout, promotes carbohydrates to initiate tissue repair and set the stage for muscle growth. Conversely, when the body is not sensitive to carbs and you’re crushing the pasta buffet, excess carbohydrates will be stored, building some brand-new layers of blubber on your waistline. Through proper timing and fluctuations, carbohydrates will be under your control, allowing the body to strip rolls of fat and build slabs of muscle.1

http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/ultimate-guide-for-lean-gains-part-1-carb-cycling”

I thought the whole nutrient timing theory had been proven to be be inaccurate?

For most of the general populace, calories in < calories out is still the key to weight loss. Perhaps fasted training has some benefit, but I’d be willing to bet it’s marginal to your average enthusiast.

Sure, if you’re on the verge of that pro contract, sub 10% body fat, and you’re looking to drive some sort of physiological adaptation that preferentially burns fat, then knock yourself out. If you’re an average cycling enthusiast at around 15-20% body fat, and looking to lose some weight then you’re better off just eating at a calorific deficit and maintaining the level of exercise you’re comfortable with!

Of course, if fasted training makes you feel more “pro” (see shaving your legs as a Cat 4 when you have no masseuse), then go for it. I’m not judging. Hell, I’ve even contemplated it myself, but it just seems to be a lot of work for very little benefit.

@cruzcampo thats the usual stuff put out by the pumped up community oftrn just before they sell you some whey protein!
If you look at the countries around the world with the greatest obesity issues they are the biggest consumers of meat and dairy not carbs. Sometimes this gets lost in a wealth gap but there are exceptions Japan for instance with a 3% obesity rate compared to the Wests 30%, its so low becuse the eat rice and veg with little meat and dairy. They also have good public transport reducing car use and encouraging walking.

If you want get pumped eat protein if you want to get lean eat clean carbs.

@curiousyellow wouldnt it be more important for someone with some fat to learn how to burn it than someone without any?

I would not recommend relying on CW as a useful guide to anything of a nutritional nature. I’ve read many of those CW articles and frankly, well, it’s mostly BS as are the meals they print.

Cals in Vs Cals out, doesn’t apply at an endocrine level and is quite possibly the most common error made when trying to apply the law of conservation to the Human body at that level.

However, the LoC does finally apply at a cellular level. But that doesn’t equate to the simplistic and incorrect advise of running a Cal deficit.

Fat cells release fat when instructed to by any one or a combination of several hormones. However, insulin will block release of fat from the cell.

If one is looking to get the best result for minimum effort to reduce body fat. Then a diet of low glycemic load should ensure a reduced duration for serum insulin and so consequently an increased duration for fat release to occur.

Based on this simple process, you do not eat carbs to get “lean” not to mention all the other problems, consuming refined, easily digestible carbs provide for the body.

Individual variance on this theme will be observed and I would hope its obvious why. However if we all have the same underlying physiology, then the same rule, broadly, applies. Anyone suffering a related clinical condition may have a significantly altered outcome and I suggest qualified medical advise, in such a situation.

Some interesting stuff here about the whole ‘carbs v fats’ thing:

BBC Health

Original article

Which claims to debunk the whole ‘carbs cause an insulin spike which causes more fat to be stored’ thing. If I was criticising the study however I would question:

1. The sample size (19)

2. Length of study (2 weeks)

3. Source of funding. It was carried out at the NIH, which is funded by the US government, which has been accused in the past of giving in too much to food lobbyists.

However the methodology looks (otherwise!) sound, and most of all it is recent, so it’ll be interesting to see what else is done to build on this.

There’s nothing controversial about refined and easily digestible carbs inducing excessive fat accumulation in people, besides causing other problems also.

Therefore I’d suggest that anyone trying to prove otherwise or dish this information, certainly has an “agenda”.

From the original article:
“We investigated ten male and nine female subjects who all had obesity with a BMI of (mean ± SEM) 35.9 ± 1.1 kg/m2 (Table 1).“
😆

I’d not suggest running an experiment using subjects who at the outset already suffer with a related clinical condition.

What next? Testing a flat tyre for puncture resistance?

A great example of pseudo science at it’s worst, that’s been released onto the web to convince the public of a particular fact.

One might be forgiven for asking why?

Ok, ignoring obvious outliers, like people with marked hormone imbalances etc.

@wilburt
The most important thing for an average person who wants to lose fat is to find a way to lose it that they can stick with long term. Fat people are fat because they eat more than they need. I think we’re all agreed there. Calories in < calories out works, and has been proven to work for millions of people who’ve dieted their way to a lower weight. Where does the energy for them to carry out bodily functions come from, if not from fat stores?

@Solo
Can you explain what you’re implying in simpler terms please? The way I understand it, you’re saying eating a “low GI” diet is best to force the body to preferentially burn fat. Are you saying this can be achieved without running a calorie deficit? I’m genuinely interested in your opinion as to why you think calories in < calories out is not the simplest way to achieve fat loss. Where does the majority of the energy come from if not from fat stores? Not looking for an argument, because I don’t claim to be an expert. If you can explain why the deficit is not the way to fat loss long term is, then I’m very interested in learning it.

For anyone else, this article offers a detailed, accessible explanation of how calorie deficits work:

The Deficit – How We Lose Fat

Perhaps fasted training has some benefit, but I’d be willing to bet it’s marginal to your average enthusiast.

Depending on who you are, it’s not marginal at all. Some people burn fat very well, stay skinny, and ride for hours eating nothing but a banana. Others don’t. Fasted riding may make the latter more like the former, this is a good thing for an endurance sport, even if you’re not a wannabe pro. It can help complete a decent ride without dying on your arse.

If you look at the countries around the world with the greatest obesity issues they are the biggest consumers of meat and dairy not carbs

No, I think they are the biggest consumers of fat AND carbs. The two together are the problem.

Wilburt, may I nicely ask if you’ve tried following a low or slow carb diet? The biggest consequence of it is what you find you can’t actually eat. There aren’t many complete meals you can eat that are really high in fat without any sugar or other carbs. You can’t eat much cream on its own but you can easily drink a Venti Frappucino – or at least, I can. Likewise butter and cheese; I tends not to eat much on their own but I can easily demolish a stack of cheese sandwiches on white.

Right, I don’t have loads of time, outside lunch break.

I’ve quickly scanned the link as far as I could before the deficit model in that article went too far wrong.

LoC doesn’t apply to the entire endocrine system in simple terms of plus and minus cals. The endocrine system will up-regulate or down regulate cellular activity as desired.

At a cellular level LoC does apply, a fat cell, for example can only store or release fat (energy) a tissue cell can either use or not use energy in whatever form, glycogen, fat, yadda. So at a cellular level, theres your LoC.

Insulin is the key, it controls fat storage and release. Insulin in the blood, prevents fat release.
the longer the duration insulin is in the blood, the longer any stored fat remains stored and unused.

this can be exacerbated by consuming high GI load foods and drink and not using the resultant serum glucose. Which is then shuttled off, by insulin, to finally end up as body fat.

The higher glycemic load of your last meal, the longer insulin will be in the blood stream after that meal and the longer any stored fat remains locked away.

Counting cals doesn’t address insulin response or whether a fat cell releases its fat. Number of cals is secondary to type of cals consumed.

My understanding is that they used people with a high BMI because these are the kind people who have the most to gain from losing weight, therefore making the trial clinically relevant.

I’ve been veggie for a couple of months, my diet mostly consists of fruit, veg, salad, past, rice and spuds, pulses and eggs. I’ve had a couple of meals served with fish and didnt want to offend so ate them but that aside meat, milk, butter, cheese free. I found milk and cheese the easiest to give up a bit like overly sweet foods once you adjust to not having them they become unpleasant.

In the two months I’ve lost a few kg some of which may be expected from a cyclist in July and August, but overall feeling great and at almost 50 setting the best times of my life.

re fasted rides, I don’t think I advocated that entirely, rather that your average joe doing a 50 mile sportive@16mph doesnt need extra porridge before, half a dozen gels during and slap up meal after to avoid fainting!

And the more you become accustomed to riding withoit a full tank the better your (my) body seems to perform.

shermer75 – Member
My understanding is that they used people with a high BMI because these are the kind people who have the most to gain from losing weight, therefore making the trial clinically relevant

As above. Do you test tyre puncture resistance using a tyre that already has a puncture or a standard, correctly inflated tyre?

Conducting a which is best test on subjects who’s bodies already suffer a distortion of normal function is a trick someone is trying to slide by the reader.

Believe and think whatever you wish to.
🙂

I found milk and cheese the easiest to give up

When doing the iDave diet I found I had to keep eating those two things to make the rest of it work. A little bit of cheese in a meal made it satisfying, otherwise I never was.

@Solo
What do you think about the Twinkie Diet experiment?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Or are there some qualifiers when you say calories in < calories out is secondary to type of calories?

curiousyellow – Member
 @SoloWhat do you think about the Twinkie Diet experiment?

😆
I think you remind me of someone who liked to stir things up like that.
Happy hunting.
😀