Son complains after riding (e.g.) Llandegla black for an hour so at a decent intensity that his hands are cramped up – basically his fingers bent over and difficult to straighten back up.

He wears padded gloves (usually) and brakes with two fingers. Grips are standard factory fitted Canyon ones.

I keep telling him it must be because he is gripping too hard, which like a typically teenager he completely denies.

Any hints that someone other than his dad can pass on to him so that he isn’t in this sort of discomfort after an otherwise enjoyable ride?

Maybe adjust the reach on his brakes so he can one-finger brake? Also, might want to check the alignment of the levers, if they’re fairly parallel to the ground it can put your hands in an unnatural position which might cause pain. IIRC they should be aligned so that it’s a straight line from your forearms through to the levers.

He probably is suffering the effects of ‘death grip’. Have you considered the possibility that he’s holding on for dear life because he’s scared sh*tless and doesn’t want to admit it to his Dad? Your advice is probably spot-on, but if he feels like he’s in over his head, he won’t be able to relax his grip. An hour-long black run is pretty hard core.

A normal ride for me, no shame in that.

You’re probably right but could try telling him he needs to improve his finger strength and stamina. Get him one of those grip squeeze things that climbers use so be can practice squeeze/relax with his hands

I had a problem with this on longer and rougher rides (including Llandegla black). A swap from some thin oem grips to thicker foam ones has seen the problem disappear completely.

Tell him to brake less.

When you say “son” do you mean young kid, skinny, possibly undernourished, riding a bike designed for (or even set up for!) a 15 stone bloke?

It’s quite common for forks to be massively overdamped and over sprung for those under about 10 stone, and impossible to actually adjust sensibly, not without opening them up and adjusting the guts. So they very quickly become rigid forks.

Have seen female XC and junior/juvenile riders with one leg of their forks emptied of everything, as it’s not needed.

Some of the pressures used for the WC XC riders are so low you’d blink (well off the bottom of the recommended chart) also running far thinner oils and modified shim stacks to get the damping back. Think the heaviest regular WC rider is about 75 kilos. Most are nearer 65. Women are lighter again. Some around 50……….

If he’s a sensible weight, maybe look at a) if the gloves are any good, not all padded gloves are equal, or even needed (i ride unpadded on the MTB, have done for ~10 years) b) are the grips any good, or even the right size for him.

No, I mean my 16 year old, 6ft (but scrawny) lad who ragged it down the black at Llandegla on his own because the rest of us are far too slow for him! He weighs about 70kg currently I believe.

He managed to persuade me to do the b-line on his second run around ‘degla yesterday, complaining all the while about how slow I was…

He’s riding a Canyon Nerve Al 6.0 with Reba up front, and he rides quite hard – he definitely makes good use of the suspension.

He definitely isn’t scared by anything I’m suggesting he does – he rides on his own at his own pace (miles faster than me) usually with a big smile on his face tail whipping down the bumps and humps of Llandegla (he scares the life out of me to be honest!). But I do think he is likely hanging onto the bars too hard rather than being relaxed in his arms etc – but I’m just a dad riding a decathlon £300 hard tail so I know little enough about these things, other than to know there is “something” he’s not doing right (or not got the right kit) which needs addressing.

(I got some admiring (?) looks off some of the guys on the black bits of Llandegla yesterday for braving it on the crap bike I ride!)

He wears padded gloves (usually) and brakes with two fingers

Get this sorted first. Move the brakes along the bars a bit and pull in the reach adjuster so that he can brake one finger. With modern brakes there’s no need to ever use two fingers.

Try gloves with no padding at all. Pads effectively effectively increase the diameter of the grip, which can make things even worse.

Thanks – when you say move the brakes along, I presume you mean towards the stem, rather than outwards? I’m not totally sure there is a reach adjustment on the stock brakes fitted (Shimano M395 – acera I think), so perhaps its time for an upgrade there. That might be an overdue upgrade anyway.

Exactly that yeah. Would be very surprised if there wasn’t a reach adjuster, probably just needs a 2mm Allen key to adjust

Gripping too hard.

Ride easier stuff to get confidence.

Confidence not an issue. Experience / time on bike on those trails maybe, but not confidence.

(Though I accept that a more subliminal aspect of confidence might be in play, i.e. having the balls to do something, but perhaps not the 100% confidence that it’ll all turn out OK).

FunkyDunc – Member

Gripping too hard.

Ride easier stuff to get confidence.

Given that he’s only holding on with 2 fingers and a thumb on each side, it could easily be fatigue rather than just holding on too tight

+ 1 for one finger braking.

Also esi foam grips might help.

There’s probably about a million things that could do this. Soft grips and pads can be counterproductive frinstance, I put ESI Chunkys on the fatbike to reduce hand stress and it made it worst because I was gripping harder to squish the grips! And padded gloves can create pressure points.

Lots of good advice but at the end of the day experimentation is most important and figuring out what works for the individual.

Get him one of those grip squeeze things that climbers use so be can practice squeeze/relax with his hands

He is a teenager ffs, he doesn’t need more practice with his grip, just tell him to switch hands now and then!

well, this worked for me:

A) set the brake levers so they’re just below horizontal, definitely not ‘inline’ with his forearms.

B) bigger grips.

Ignore me then. 😀

Ignore you, never!

He’s certainly not heavy, so I do take your points about bikes being made for adults rather than kids seriously in terms of his suspension setup. But he’s definitely more on the adult side than the kids side now, and whilst he’s got some bulking out still do to, he’s definitely no less adult in his physical build now than many other adults are.

I think he compenstates for being a “light” adult by riding his short travel bike a little harder than a 15st rider would be able to do on the same machine.

Great band, my second ever gig 🙂

Bring the brake levers closer to the bars, stopped me getting cramped fingers, it does worry people when they try my bike and the levers go nearly to the bars! 😆

Make him ride a rigid bike for a bit. That’ll teach him to grip loosely 🙂

Pads effectively effectively increase the diameter of the grip, which can make things even worse.

This!

Plus one finger braking.

Sounds like he’s getting vicious arm pump, the only place I have ever had it that bad is Whistler on a shit rental DH bike.

I’d echo what others have said about getting it set up for 1 finger braking, with the lever closer to the bar than you’d think (feels funny at first, but you still have the braking there and it helps with arm pump).

Other than that, has he tried going rock climbing? I do this because it’s fun but it undoubtedly lets me hang on for longer on some descents.

Just adding to the consensus here, but I reckon the most important thing is to move the brakes inwards to allow (or force) one finger braking.

Adding to the consensus on adjusting brake levers to get good 1 finger braking suitable for his hand size. I’ve got teeny hands so brake reach is critical for me.

Do sort it though because if it’s only an hour’s riding that’s not that long and degla isn’t a rough/rocky trail by any stretch of the imagination.

That actually was his point yesterday. We’re off to the Alps in the summer (mainly family holiday, but he’ll get some MTB fix for sure out there) and he was concerned that if he got that bad after degla he’d be in agony in Les Gets!

Though yesterday I experienced degla in the dry for the first time ever, and it was definitely harder on my arms than I’ve had before!

I’ve found that brake lever positioning has a massive effect on my comfort even after relatively short and unassuming rides. Definitely worth spending 15 minutes with an allen key getting right.

Yes, but you may have to move the brakes inboard of the shifters, ie swap them around.

I’ve got the same issue. I know im gripping to hard but I was using stock grips, just changed them.

Could look at bar position as well, is it rotated to suit the angle of his wrists.

Found the reach adjustment last night, trying that as a first port of call. Though he did look bemused when i told him I’d posted it here and reeled off the potential suggestions. For some reason he thinks the cure for this might be something else completely (though he’s no idea what that might be!).

Teenagers and their independent minds, eh!?!

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I’ll make sure we try out a variety of things and potentially report back with answers!

(Final note – discovered that he does use single finger braking, didn’t know that previously).

Larkin – one of the most respected MTB coaches on here is Tony Doyle (Jedi). He set up my brakes far higher than most other people I ride with – almost parallel to the ground. This means the force through your wrists under braking pushes into the bars, instead of rotating around over them (same concept as dropping your heels descending). I am definitely a comfort broker, but I never suffer from hand/arm fatigue, even in the Alps.

It feels strange at first, but definitely worth a go IMHO.

Exactly what dantsw13 said. Most people seem to have the brake levers pointing way to low, many way past 45 degrees when looking side on. I followed Jedi’s advice and they are more like 15-20 degrees and so much better for it. Massively reduces arm pump and increases control.

http://m.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/Yoann-Barellis-Brake-Lever-Position,9056

Like this

Stop thinking about what other people do, unless you’re setting up your bike for them to ride. It’s not a bad idea to have a load of suggestions but none of us know what’s right for you and none of it’s a substitute for experimentation and research.

If confidence isn’t the issue, it’s very likely to be caused by him having his weight too far back during descents. Smaller diameter grips, single finger braking and cockpit adjustments may slightly relieve the symptoms, but as long as his hips are 6″ behind his balance position, he’ll have to constantly pull on the bars to stay on, giving him epic forearm fatigue.
I did this for 15 years before shifting forward and curing it overnight! As a rock climber I have no shortage of forearm endurance but it was never enough to counteract my poor riding position.

Agree with the comments about the brakes

Are the grips too big? The Ergon ones on my Canyon were massive and horrible for my small ish hands. Change them for thinner (probably non lock-on) ones.

Are the forks too stiff? I remember once upgrading my forks and my arm pump instantly improved.