mikenewsmith well duh 😆

MSP: What absolute bollocks

So, pray tell me, where are the big Nigerian, Ghanaian, Kenyan, Pakistani and Afghan communities in Europe?

It’s a sad situation for all these would be immigrants, they do know that they are all rounded up on our side of the water and aken back to France don’t they?
It is widely known that they get no further than the Port.
Ok, so maybe one or wo do get over and thats the risk benefit, one or two do make it, the rest get shuttled back.
Or so I’m lead to believe (BBC source)

Perhaps these are exactly the kind of people we want coming to this country?

Absolutely. Proper get up and go types.

I still don’t understand why France isn’t an option. I’d prefer the south of France.

The Classic FM news had a few French people waiting to get on the Channel Tunnel in the UK who were generally pretty nonplussed by it all. They said they weren’t very comfortable but weren’t pointing fingers or blaming everyone. After all it’s as a result of people exercising their right to strike and stand up to employers not doing the right thing.

There was a bloke from the UK border force ranting that the French were lax to allow the strike to shut the ports. But surely if you’re striking the point is it has some effect so you get what you want?

Oh, and if we’re doing Globalti’s ignorance of what’s actually going on again, the number of illegal immigrants arrested trying to get into Germany last year was 57,000. In the UK it was 14,000. So, actually, they don’t aim for Britain bypassing the rest of Europe- they aim for Europe generally, a minority end up in the UK. Not a high enough number to be genuinely concerned about.

The spirit of Bob Lives on. I wonder who’d get the average DM reader more apoplectic? Him or the bloody French?

Also looking at the TV footage it seemed to me that there were one or two individuals amongst the refugees who seemed to be taking a distinctly supervisory role, holding doors open, encouraging refugees, not jumping in and then closing the truck doors as they drove off. Who were they?

I expect they were French.

My opinion of all these poor dehumanised, desperate people we see on these news reports…

Once again, Binners hits the nail on the head.

I watched the newsnight special filmed on boats in the med and in Calais the other night, it was compelling and utterly soul destroying.

They followed a man who climbed into the bottom of a wooden boat and allowed his children to be put on a separate boat, he knew the likelihood of survival and he made that choice. He was aiming for the UK as that was the language he spoke.

I cannot conceive of the desperation to put your children on a boat knowing the high chance they might not make it. Those poor poor people. 😥

If France is such a fantastic place why do all these poor migrants try so desperately to get out.

France receives more than twice the asylum applications than the UK. I suspect that what drives desperate people to choose a country where they can hope to enter and work, legally or not, is how successful they are likely to be in achieving their aims.

The situation is particularly desperate today as the direct result of the Western policies of military intervention and fanning the flames of war, which were, and still are, championed by former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair.

New U.N. report says world’s refugee crisis is worse than anyone expected

The number of people uprooted from their homes by war and persecution in 2014 was larger than in any year since detailed record-keeping began, according to a comprehensive report released early Thursday by the U.N. refugee agency that will add to the evidence of a global exodus unlike any in modern times.

Just a year after the number of refugees, asylum-seekers and people forced to flee within their own countries surpassed 50?million for the first time since World War II, it surged to nearly 60?million in 2014 — “a nation of the displaced” that is roughly equal to the population of the United Kingdom.

Tony Blair famously said that the world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein, since Tony Blair’s warmongering policies were first put in place the world has become a considerably more dangerous place with millions more people living in fear in their own countries.

Better the Dictator you know then Ernie ?

Better not military intervention and fanning the flames of war. We reap what we sow.

Nearly 60?million refugees, asylum-seekers and people forced to flee within their own countries, for the first time since World War II, as a result of Western foreign policies.

And then we whinge about the consequences.

I do not deny there is a massive part of the displaced people are casued by western intervention but can we please not compare dispalcement of people in teh second ww with today when the popuation (world) has doubled in that time, it is not a fair comparision.

We produce more barrels of oil every year, more people are being born. More “stuff” is being used. There is exponiatial growth and demand on most things in the world (which is largley a driver behind many of the politcal action taken). Is 60 million comparible on a relative term to dispalced people over the last few decades, because it could be down relativly and still be thighest abosolute number ever recorded.

60 million displaced is horiffic and this is of course a emotive subject with many horrific personal stories but fair comparisions must be made

It is perfectly fair for the UN to describe it as the worse displacement of people since WW2, as apparently that is exactly what the situation is.

U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees – “We are witnessing a paradigm change, an unchecked slide into an era in which the scale of global forced displacement as well as the response required is now clearly dwarfing anything seen before”

And he adds : “It is terrifying that on the one hand there is more and more impunity for those starting conflicts, and on the other there is seeming utter inability of the international community to work together to stop wars and build and preserve peace”

The U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees was created to help those displaced by WW2, I respect their veiws on the matter.

It is fair and correct but also needs to be compared on a relative term as well to give a more complete (although not a long way from totaly complete) picture.

If you’re going to concentrate on the numbers, then surely this differs from WW2 in the fact that everyone is heading out of one specific region, and all in the same direction. WW2 represented a truy global movement of people. This isn’t.

Plus: In WW2 the refugees were given refuge (clues in the name), as opposed to now where they are received with, at best, indifference, and more usually, open hostility

but also needs to be compared on ……

But it’s not really a competition is it?

No one, including the UNHCR, is claiming that if you look at “the whole picture” the situation today is worse than WW2. They are simply pointing out that we are experiencing the worse displacement of people since WW2. I think emphasizing the enormity of the problem is perfectly fair, I certainly don’t see any point in playing the problem down.

So are we advocating an open door policy ? We have 2 spare rooms in our house should I take 4 refugees in and give them a better life?
Would anyone?
Should we tackle the problem at root cause and make their countries nicer.
How would we do this? Give this week’s dictator a load of money and trust him to spend it wisely? Invade and install someone we can “trust”?
Africa has always had tons of nut jobs running around having wars. Some of the wars may even have been nothing to do with us.
Most of the world isn’t that nice a place to live. Can we really expect to put it all right?

Just look at the dire situaution in the countries they’re coming from. Do you see refugees from Eritrea, Iraq or Syria wanting to rush off back to their newly stable countries any time soon?

They interviewed a Syrian refugee on Channel 4 news. He stated there are 3 groups of people in the country. Assad and his random genocidal bombing of the civilian population, ISIS and a selection of other pychotic jihadist nut-jobs running around beheading people, and violently enforcing their warped world-view, and then throw in the mix random opportunist criminal gangs with a nice line in kidnapping and ransoms, taking full advantage of the lawlessness

Frankly you’d have to certifiable not to be looking for a way out

And there is a sort of exchange programme already in operation between Aleppo and Bradford. Maybe we should encourage that a bit more?

binners your Rochdale pic made me chuckle. Many years ago a colleague was called to a job at Radcliffe Times Paper Mill in the early hours of the morning when half a dozen young Albanian lads jumped out of the back of a lorry in their yard.

He rounded them all up and gave them the full guided tour before taking them to the nick proclaiming that they’d had a good look round and would quite like to go home! 😆

Sadly there must be no wifi in Calais to allow those so called imigrants who have lost everything and are looking for a new life for themselves and families can post their stories on here and on the media in general, then perhaps some of the people so affraid of them may have a chance to change their minds.

France receives more than twice the asylum applications than the UK. I suspect that what drives desperate people to choose a country where they can hope to enter and work, legally or not, is how successful they are likely to be in achieving their aims.

France (and Germany) both receive far more applications, but they are also far more likely to reject them than the UK.

So are we advocating an open door policy?

No, but do we close the drawer-bridge and say “not my problem”? This isn’t tenable and it seems to me that bigger political, economic and thereafter cultural solutions are required from countries able to assist. I can’t see a quick-fire answer that will resolve this in weeks or months, but there is no turning away from the need to assist in structural reform. On Syria, I have no idea 🙁

FWIW, I’d happily stump up cash if I thought it would do any good in aiding societal-scale disaster.

France (and Germany) both receive far more applications, but they are also far more likely to reject them than the UK.

Got any figures to back that claim?

No, but do we close the drawer-bridge and say “not my problem”?

Plenty from here seem to want to go to Syria. How about an exchange program?

Most of these immigrants don’t intend to claim asylum (we only accepted 2,300 claims last year) they intend to work illegally. They’ve come for economic reasons not to escape persecution.

About 100 Britons have been jailed in France for acting as couriers, seems the traffickers recruit students etc who are paid to hide the immigrants in their cars. UK police recently arrested some Polish (?) lorry drivers who they said had knowingly smuggled people in.

@bikebouy I think we can safely assume there are 1000’s who have gotten in successfully.

They’ve come for economic reasons not to escape persecution.

It depends what you call persecution. While you may not be able to make a case for being individually persecuted as a Syrian, does ‘I’d like to live for long enough to see my next birthday’ class you as an economic migrant?

I’d just say that it classes you as someone sensible enough to possess an instinct for self-preservation! Who doesn’t want to play the game of Russian Roulette about who’s going to imminently kill you and your family – an islamic nut-job, or a government barrel bomb

Re English speaking, it all depends on the country of origin. Plenty of Africans choose France as a final destination esp if they come from an ex-French colony where French is wide spread. Go to Cameroon, Côte d’Ivoire, Morocco, etc and everyone speaks French.

MSP- got google?

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-uk-asylum

In 2013, the UK received 0.47 asylum applicants per 1000 people in its population, below the European level (0.91 for EU plus Norway and Switzerland).

Meanwhile, in a thread from only 6 days ago-

Even in 2008 Germany was taking 7.08 refugees per capita, while Britain was taking only 4. That figure has only gone down since.

Britain is not pulling its weight for whatever reason be that bigotry, racism, xenophobia, ignorance, selfishness or any of a myriad of unjustifiable reasons.

ninfan – Member

France (and Germany) both receive far more applications, but they are also far more likely to reject them than the UK.

Actually, Germany rejects 58% of first asylum applications, compared to 61% in the UK. France does have a higher rejection rate at about 78%.

TBH direct comparisons are pretty tricky though, the French maintain that they just receive a lower quality of applicants, whereas Germany gets a high volume of Syrians who generally have strong cases. So I don’t think it’s that useful to compare like with like.

jambalaya – Member

Most of these immigrants don’t intend to claim asylum

Is that just another jambalayamadeupfact ® or have you actually got some sort of proof that most of the people trying to enter the UK illegally from Calais in the back of a lorry don’t intend to claim asylum ?

I like the trademark, 🙂

Let me dig out the story I read, the vast majority are not intending to claim asylum. In the first 5 months of 2015 18,700 have tried to cross. The camp has 4,000 people in it and 150 arrive every day.

EDIT: while I’m trying to find it “entering the UK illegally” is a very easy way to deny an asylum claim so if you’re objective is to claim asylum getting into the back of a lorry / boot of a car is not the way to go about it

In the first 5 months of 2015 18,700 have tried to cross. The camp has 4,000 people in it and 150 arrive every day

You can remember those precise facts and figures but not where you read it ? That’s bizarre, if you don’t mind me saying.

@ernie – different article, I read the stats 20 mins ago

For the stats … actual number quoted was 18,170 not 18,700 – I made a mistake link

So nothing to do with the claim that “Most of these immigrants don’t intend to claim asylum” then.

The telegraph also seem to have printed a daily mash story by mistake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11695862/Calais-crisis-Fears-Isil-may-use-migrant-chaos-to-slip-jihadists-in-to-UK.html

Can’t be long until they discover a link between the “Calais crisis” and cancer.

Correct. I never said it was the same source, you inferred that. It may be I heard the comment on a documentary/news item, could have been on French TV. I do think it was a newspaper article online in English though. There are 100’s of illegal immigrants camped out in Paris, they don’t want to register, the French police won’t arrest them as they’ll have to deal with the issue or they are hoping they will go elsewhere, so they are just left. Shambles.

Don’t forget many of these people are fleeing a conflict Blair started (on the basis of those interviewed by French media in the camps recently). How many of you voted for him?

@Edukator surely if they where fleeing to countries that started the war they’d go together Iraq/Afghanistan or the U.S. ?

Channel 4 news: Ali from Syria interviewed in Calais. Claims marks on his arms where from torture by the French policie. I think he got his lines wrong. Having travelled through Turkey, Greece and France he said he didn’t claim asylum there as those countries didn’t have the money to support him.

I drove to Amsterdam and back yesterday and what a nightmare journey it was, from the acrid black smoking tyres at 6 in the morning from the road block set up by the French wildcats strikers, to the French version of operation stack making us miss our late night slot on the return, coupled to scary people frightening my daughter (who I gave a lift back she works out there)trying to get in the back and side of the T5, yes I hit the central locking just in time, not wishing to be hindered further going through the sensors and X-rays as it was we missed another slot as the van in front of us got turned over.

Blaming the French for the immigrants is not helpful, we have a reputation as a soft touch country, with an open wallet and relatively speaking compared to what these people have suffered, our streets are paved with gold. The French have highlighted this in the past. I spoke with a couple of truckers in the queue they’ve all had their locks broken, these guys are well organised one goes in the with Bolt cutters a couple more flip the doors and they then bunk each other up, it was happening right in front of us.

The answer is to put their countries straight, they don’t want to be here, the whole endgame of the colonial period was totally mis managed, there is a clear reason here to go back in as a United Nations style force and get these failed states back up and running, we’d be better off ensuring the foreign aid we waste is put to better use rather than feeding our own arms industry.

As to having them here, I fear we’re already done, our NHS and social services are already buckling at the seams, supplying drugs and medical assistance to the entire world foc was never its remit, so if it is that we wish to continue doing it, better do it at source, bring back conscription set ourselves up as GB World Police & Ambulance and waste the money that way, putting things right at the point of the problem rather than importing it here.