Shifting the focus: energy demand in a net-zero carbon UK

The report suggests electric vehicles will actually cause an increase in car miles and more congestion and recommends “Enabling and encouraging a shift from private motorised travel to more energy efficient modes” and notes this “requires systematic support for the very lowest energy methods of transport – walking, cycling (including e-bikes and e-scooters) and public transport, through investment programmes on both capital and revenue spending, priority use of road space”.

someone’s actually recognising that the roads are overcrowded with cars and there’s no improvement in sight.

A good read.

This is the specific section
https://www.creds.ac.uk/wp-content/pdfs/CREDS-Shifting-the-focus-July2019.pdf#page=47

Of course it’s obvious but getting people to think of not driving for all their journies will be tough. The idea of change is beyond many. Mixed mode should be easier

On the otherside it’s not helped by over zealous people demanding we all work within 5 miles of our house. You turn people off from any changes.

Some or part of your journey (s) not by car is solution

Kinda related – I had a bit of an argument on Facebook after a friend posted up some of the usual BS about cyclists/lycra/queues etc. Now I know this subject attracts extreme views but he was adamant that cyclists shouldn’t clog up roads when roads are there for people to get to work etc. When I pointed out that people use bikes to commute to work he argued that they should set off later (after rush hour) so as to not hold up car drivers. It descended into a whole argument about vehicular use of all kinds and what vehicles should be on the road and when depending on whether the use was work or pleasure. In the end I stepped away as he was so angry and couldn’t see beyond cyclists holding him up on his important journeys.

Cardiff is spending a ton of money on a joined up metropolitan PT system. I wish everywhere would do this. However you can’t deny that, as expensive as it is in Cardiff it’s easier here than elsewhere due to the industrial legacy of existing railway lines all through the city.

What it needs is a shit ton of public money and political determination to raise and spend it.

Mixed mode should be easier

It really should. I just went to Wincheter this week, and I didn’t take my bike because it was too much hassle to have to book it on two trains. I ended up using a taxi at the far end and contributing to the dreadful traffic problems in Winchester.

GWR just spent a ton on new trains – there’s no excuse for not having a decent sized box at one end for our bikes.

Last weekend I was doing car park duty for a show I was involved in. The small car park soon filled up, and I had to direct people to a council park less than 100m away that charged £2.50.

You should hear the complaints: “ it’s too far”; “it’s too expensive [from people in BMWs]”; “I have a bad knee”; “it’ll take too long”; “it might rain” …
Every single person had a little sob story about why they had to park right next to the venue. A guy in a 4WD even lied, said he’d just turn round but didn’t come back.

We won’t just have difficulty getting people to take fewer journeys by car, it’s hard enough getting them to accept they might have to walk a few metres

everyone is a bit of a dick. cars just amplify it.

People are tw*ts. I can’t wait until the dogs take over.

johndoh, here’s one for your friend. Pollution AND congestion reduced by building cycling infrastructure.

molgrips, I recently read Austria have made huge changes to bikes on trains meaning local services and high speed trains will have more bike spaces available.

There’s no point waiting for drivers to change their minds, they won’t. We all tend to hold the Netherlands up as the great centre for cycling but that mindset is only 50 years old and was achieved by protest.

i’ve been thinking for a while that the best way to reduce car use might be simply to cripple the (car) infrastructure. For example make most roads single lane, via a one way system and they would free up more space for alternative transport while also making car use the worst option. I know it would hit many who genuinely need to use a car but it would hopefully weed out the many who don’t and really, everyone is going to need an alternative sooner or later.

Interesting thread. I’ll admit to driving to work quite often these days as I regularly need to visit 2-3 clients a day in the North East, maybe clocking up 50 miles or so all in.. I hate it but I’m contributing to the problem. However it’s just the most convenient way to do things. If I’m in the office all day I can cycle and if I’m in Leeds/Manchester/London or any other major city I will get the train.

But it’s all the small journeys of a mile or so that are the low hanging fruit with this. However, even getting people to change this will be very very difficult. We live in a small town with a lovely high-street of shops, restaurants, bars, a local park, playing fields, etc. etc. but everyone (I’d say 95%+) drive EVERYWHERE. It is absolute madness. I generally walk to the butchers/greengrocer on a Saturday morning and get a coffee while I’m out. Without fail I will see maybe 2-3 people walking, same again cycling and at least 250+ cars all cutting about the place. Obviously a lot of these will be travelling out of town for the day but a great number will not.

If people can’t even be arsed to walk 1 mile we’ve got no chance, absolutely nowt. People still look at me like I’ve just sprouted 3 heads when I tell them I’ve cycled 5 miles to work.

It really should. I just went to Wincheter this week, and I didn’t take my bike because it was too much hassle to have to book it on two trains.

Train and bike are the obvious one but car and <X> should be easier as well. Most park and rides are not cheap unless you are heading in to town centre all day and are painfully slow. Insistence on massive buses rather than more frequent small buses on many routes (not just p&r). Easy bike routes from park and ride carparks.

My wife worked for a while at Skipton Building Society. At lunchtime people would drive into town! It’s 500 metres or so to get from SBS to the high street. My wife would walk in and be coming out of the shops to see them still driving around the car park trying to find somewhere to park!

With previous work I had to go to Ghent in Belgium. This is bike central in a big way and even more so now. While cars are allowed into the city centre, it’s zoned a bit like slices of a pie and to get from one zone to another you have to drive out of the central area and back in. Big fine if you don’t. Even seven years ago the guys at the building I was visiting reckoned it was quicker to walk the couple of Km to work than drive.

people use bikes to commute to work he argued that they should set off later (after rush hour) so as to not hold up car drivers

I heard someone in the office say something similar – “I don’t mind cyclists” duhhh “but not in the rush hour” – it was so many degrees of moronic that I chose to ignore it, for the best like. If he thinks, when he’s queuing on the A27, that it’s cyclists holding him up, then he’s more of a dick than he looks. I was quite new then… now, I’d give him some carefully chosen words. Without the protection of his vehicle, I think he’d be a bit scared though.

I have to admit it sounds sensible – my current car uses about half the fuel as my previous one, I drive it about twice as much. I’m not sure there’s 100% cause and effect here but all the same…

We all tend to hold the Netherlands up as the great centre for cycling but that mindset is only 50 years old and was achieved by protest.

Yes and there are still shitloads of cars outside the city centre.

I was pretty gobsmacked to find in that report that cars account for 60% of road energy usage and goods vehicles are “only” 30odd percent. I gad always assumed it would be the other way round. Of course there are business requirements as nickewen says. I used to do 140k mms a year on business, but there are many short car journeys which can be converted to other modes. Anyway, I’ve got to pop out to fill up the gas guzzler.

We all tend to hold the Netherlands up as the great centre for cycling but that mindset is only 50 years old and was achieved by protest.

Yes and there are still shitloads of cars outside the city centre.

Much less than in the UK tho per person – and a huge % of journeys done by bike. The dutch situation is vastly better

When I pointed out that people use bikes to commute to work he argued that they should set off later (after rush hour) so as to not hold up car drivers.

He’s probably typing this whilst sat in traffic, waiting for the queue of cars in front of him to move. All of which are perfectly fine to set off when they like, I assume?

Some people are idiots, but then merely pointing that out doesn’t change anything. There’s a lot of cultural change required in the long term which will take a significant amount of commitment over a couple of generations.

These things are all possible. To reduce traffic, reduce commuting distance, increase homeworking, improve infrastructure, but we’re not going to become Holland overnight, no matter how many cycle lanes and pathways we introduce.

Resistance is expected but over time people will be able to see for themselves how it can improve their lives.

Look at how smoking has changed. How many people once smoked, and how heavily ingrained into our society it was. We’d smoke in the house with our kids, in the car with the windows rolled up, smoke at work, in the pub, cafe, on the bus, in planes… It’s unthinkable now. We, the people, wouldn’t allow it. Even as a heavy smoker when the smoking ban in pubs came into effect, and dead set against it, I quickly seen the benefit and actually became to prefer it in a very short space of time. Only a few years later it’s difficult to imagine that we actually smoked in pubs.

He’s probably typing this whilst sat in traffic

Yes but there are queues because of the cyclists riding slowly (3 abreast) then riding past him at traffic lights to get to the front of the queue which holds him up even more🤯

This is yet another good reason why I do not drive.

but we’re not going to become Holland overnight, no matter how many cycle lanes and pathways we introduce.

True and there is another issue – the perception of cycling. The recent upturn in cycling in the UK is probably on the back of sport and the average UK cyclist doesn’t look like the average Dutch urban commuter cycling steadily to work on their pushbike. I think “ordinary” cycling needs to look more like its continental form in order for it to catch on “amongst the masses” as a form of mass transport. Less arse up head down lycra and more sit up and beg work or casual wear.

I simply cannot see bikes being used by many more people. Most people cannot and will not ride them. The car is king. Better public transport and trains could be a success. If I ride somewhere people are like poor you cannot you not afford a car? Cars are ingrained into our society. ( I also love cars too but cycle lots too )

It wasn’t particularly popular in Amsterdam either 50 years ago. It took a lot of campaigning to tun things around

Amsterdam

It’s still on the increase too – up 40% in the last 20 years. So like that better mousetrap – build it and they will come.

Rossendale is slowly opening up the remaining disused railway lines, I’m sure some people are lamenting the loss of a bit of gnarr near Irwell Vale but they are a great way to commute.

I simply cannot see bikes being used by many more people.

I suggest you google “interested but concerned cyclist” You’ll find many surveys where people have said they would be interested in cycling but are concerned for their safety. All we need is a connected network of fully protected cycling facilities… Some cities are getting on-board… some less so.

For those that say they’ll never cycle that’s fine, let them drive, they’re a smaller part of the population than you think.

johndoh

…In the end I stepped away as he was so angry and couldn’t see beyond cyclists holding him up on his important journeys.

Just tell him to count the number of cyclists he passes on the way, and then to imagine each one of those was in a car in front of him.

He’d be even more delayed, and all the carparks would be gone when he got there.

Every commuting cyclist means one more free carpark… 🙂

For anyone complaining about bikes holding them up, there’s always the famous old photo comparing how much space is occupied by different methods of transporting 69 people:

Of course there’s huge scope to get more people cycling to work in this country, because the current numbers are still very small. I’m not convinced we’ll ever summon the collective will to do anything serious about it, however.

Unfortunately it’s also the practicalities of it that stand in the way.

I work a couple of miles from home, but my son’s nursery is about 3miles the other direction. I’d happily do nursery runs by bike, but the practicalities of having a bike, suitable for carrying him and me,and our bags, accessible at the front door is a hurdle too far. The front garden isn’t big enough for a bike box.

Much of the housing stock, old and new, doesn’t have space for safe accessible bike storage.  It’s a similar problem to electric cars when you only have unallocated in street parking.

So the end result is that I do 4 sub-3mile car journeys on days when I do the nursery run. I hate it

Oh, and the national cycle route that runs pretty much door to door from home to nursery is completely impractical to actually cycle along due to junctions and street furniture, and about 3 times farther than the 40mph main road…

I hope more people do cycle. When I worked in Central London there was a huge growth of cyclists so maybe I will be proved wrong hopefully.

This is something I very much agree with, despite working in the oil and gas industry. I know my career has a limited lifespan but that will be addressed by demand reductions, making oil not worthwhile to produce, rather than supply restrictions, perpetuating the current cost cycles where the industry balances profit versus encouraging use of alternatives.

So what about us folks out in the countryside. We have 1 bus an hour that goes past our house in to derby and it finishes at 6pm. It also costs 6 quid for a return which is plenty. And shopping, I can’t get three cases of Stella and all my shopping in a rucksack, nearest supermarket is a mile away which I know isn’t far but it’s not practical to do that on a bike.
Dint get me wrong I love bikes, laddo cycles to school everyday rain snow or blow and the daughter walks in.

So what about us folks out in the countryside.

What about you? What we’re saying is that we need far better PT. So this would benefit you. No need to get defensive,

So what about us folks out in the countryside.

We are few and far between and largely irrelevant in the big scheme of things. However, would you use the bus if there was a bus every 10 minutes?

I would put bus use to the test by making all buses free for 1 year to see how much usage increased (along with more buses as my first bus goes at 11am and last one back is 6pm)

So what about us folks out in the countryside

I assume you will continue to drive if cycling is not practical. “Encouraging more people to cycle” does not mean “everyone should stop driving”.

morrisons order once a week

bus pass for those over whatever age gets a free bus pass

at least where I grew up (in the middle of nowhere), and the parents still live, there’s 1 bus every 30-60 minutes (plus several extra for the school run, where it’s not feasible to cycle, although I did a few times)

there definitely needs to be more incentive – clearly 6 quid bus ticket isn’t that incentive, nor is either free parking in the out of town places (so long as you don’t get a parking scum ticket), or £1/hour in the municipal / town centre parking. make it a quid for the bus and 6 quid to park outside B+Q or wilkos.

Make the £6 car parking subsidise the £1 bus routes.