SNP & Brexit????

tjagain – Member
Any budget of course needs more than a whipped party to get it thru so some searching for consensus will be needed.

And the outcome if no-one supports the government’s budget proposals?

We could see tomorrow scotroutes….

…an intriguing stalemate??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38304774

Others can provide the WoS link

Anything wrong with the Scottish budget is proof we need full fiscal autonomy,

Without that the juggling act of whatever flavour of Scottish govt we have is dependent on what the English controlled Westminster govt lets us have.

So, Epi, somebody else’s fault. The nationalist Scot is the picked upon Scot. Get that chip off your shoulder.

Dunno really scotroutes. They keep trying until they get a vote thru? the SNP are far to good political operators to present a budget unless they know its going to go thru. They managed it in the previous minority administration. compromise and consensus?

Statement of fact from epicyclo Gowrie. the “tax raising powers” are designed to be virtually useless and a trap for the nationalists.

tjagain – Member
Dunno really scotroutes. They keep trying until they get a vote thru?

A couple of attempts then call for a Vote of Confidence and trigger an election?

a trap for the nationalists.

Yup put them in charge of something and then watch them do nothing except complain 8)

The SNP are well aware they can’t put taxes up or the jobs will just move South of the border.

TMH’s link shows Scotlands greater income equality, ie they have less high earners. We could improve income equality by asking all the rich people to move abroad taking their jobs with them.

David Davies was before the Select Committee today. What’s clear is that Northern Ireland and Gibralter will be getting speical arrangements (Davies said the EU had raised the Irish issue and thought it very important to protect the peace process). As such it’s perfectly natural for Scotland to ask “what about us, what can we get” ?

scotroutes – thats the other option I guess. Can you remember how they did it in the first minority government? IIRC a fair amount of horse trading behind the scenes that labour and the lib dems wouldn’t join in with ” the Bain principle” AKA labours death song

Jamba – the scottish government do not have the powers to make a fairer tax system. Its a very limited and restrictive changes they can make that will not raise much money – not for the reason you think but because of the cost of administering it. But then that wouldn’t fit your narrative would it.

Gowrie – Member
So, Epi, somebody else’s fault…

Yes. It’s the fault of anyone standing in the way of Scotland having full control over its finances, ie the 3 different colours of Tory, Red, Yellow, and Blue with the help of the Proud Scot Butts.

IMO any direct tax scheme that takes +50% of gross earnings is immoral.

We keep been told to take responsibility for ourselves (only this week we’ve been told we should save up for Care), but how can we do this when we’re left with less than half of what we’ve earned?

I live in Scotland.

IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy. A country that keeps its pensioners in poverty is immoral. a country that cannot provide for the poor the sick and the needy is immoral.

The list is long (of excuses) but it is mighty.

But let me get this straight, since I am merely an Englishman with a total ignorance of Scottish affairs. Nicola is resisting increasing the top rate of tax on high earners not because she believes – as many RWers/people who do the analysis do – that it will reduce the level of revenue earned (the Tory argument and the one put forward in print by the Scottish Government, see link above) but because it would be too expensive to administer? Why on earth did she not say so, it would have saved all the debates and compromise.

IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy.

Two solutions from the Left end of the spectrum

1. raise income taxes on high earners, especially if they are below average anyway. Plenty of evidence of how this works and lots of appetite, “I would happily pay more tax for better services” etc
2. Tax owners of more than one property v heavily since they distort the housing market. How moral is it for anyone to have more than one property when people are forced to live on the streets nearby?

Odds on either being introduced by a left-of-centre, anti-austerity government?

IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy. A country that keeps its pensioners in poverty is immoral. a country that cannot provide for the poor the sick and the needy is immoral. [/I]

How we spend isn’t really connected to how we tax, with the exception of only that how much we tax rules how much we can spend.

The two are separate issues and should be treated separately.

Anyway we can’t be poor:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/08/parliament-champagne-soars-_n_5104787.html

BR – its no coincidence that most european countries tax higher than we do and have better provision for the poor, the old, the disabled and the needy

Raise income tax then – its a left-of-centre government after all.

b r – Member
IMO any direct tax scheme that takes +50% of gross earnings is immoral.

I agree. A flat rate is fairest on earnings from toil.

The answer is to remove the loopholes that allow the big corporations and the wealthy to avoid tax.

It’ll never happen with the current Westminster govt because the bribes political donations, consultancies and fact-finding missions paid for by the big corporates has too many politicians in their pockets.

Scotland could do that if it had full fiscal autonomy.

No rabbit from a hat – as promised largely in the manifesto. At least, an emphasis on education there.

So even the left of centre prefer lower taxes than Europe for the higher paid and low corporation taxes. No wonder the Tories don’t get a look in – others already implement their ideas!!

I agree. A flat rate is fairest on earnings from toil.

It would certainly be an interesting experiment, especially given how expensive tax collection is and how complex they make it.

A nice “progressive” flat rate system has a lot going for it.

I’ll just leave this here. Rather a nice speech from a slick political operator. He knows how to push the buttons. Can you imagine anyone else in the UK political scene making this speech?

Bojo obviously

tjagain – Member
I’ll just leave this here. Rather a nice speech from a slick political operator. He knows how to push the buttons. Can you imagine anyone else in the UK political scene making this speech?

As President Juncker said himself, Scotland has earned the right to be heard. And, as he mentioned to me today, to be listened to in Brussels.

[/quote]
With that statement Jucker becomes the dirt stirrer.

Yep, in other part of the world such statement become the root cause of civil war when the naive ones literary take on board such a poisonous statement.

Live now

If she focused more on making Scotland a better place to live then attracting migrants would be somewhat easier. As it is a lack of decent jobs and housing stock hardly make Scotland an attractive proposition.

Dragon – do you live in Scotland?

Right now the home office is trying to deport two american families who have settled here, built businesses here and added to the community

Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices. JObs are available if in short supply.

This thread has given me loads of laughs. People whos blind hatred for the SNP and reliance on english press for their information insisting black is white and arguing from a mix of ignorance, cant and condescension

Full proposal here

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/12/9234/0

You might not like them/her but at least they’re doing something pro-active and talking openly about their plans, unlike the headless chickens in Westminster.

Well said BOb – and of course in answer to Dragon it is absolutely critical to the wellbeing of the people of scotland and of our economy that we remain in the single market.

So it is trying to make Scotland a better place to live and work and also the single most important issue facing scotland right now

While I don’t disagree with NS trying to set out Scotland’s case there is no way Westminster will cut Scotland a special deal.

It would be political suicide.

No deal means 2nd referendum becomes inevitable

Dragon – are you English and do you even live in Scotland?…Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices.

You can even have more than one and make it more expensive for those trying to get on the ladder!

This thread has given me loads of laughs. People whos blind hatred for the English and reliance on WoS for their information insisting black is white and arguing from a mix of ignorance, cant and condescension

Me too!

But on a serious point, this is quite remarkable. Having read the introduction (thx for the link bob) it is largely factual. 😯

Of course it avoids the ridiculous situation of being a separate member of the EZ but as an aspirational piece (missing out the practical stuff) not a bad effort. 7/10

2nd refrendum will only happen if the poll point to a win. Sturgeon also has to address the SNP voters who want out of the EU.

Sturgeon is a cautious politician by nature unlike Salmond who is a gambler

Bob, its easy to talk. Much harder to actually do things – rhetoric is cheap, reality quite different

eg, easy to argue that being in the EU (under Dave’s terms) was better than we will end up with, but so what? thats gone. We have to find the best solution from a bad situation. No point pretending that the unachievable is achievable unless you have time to write a full 670 pages…

Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices. JObs are available if in short supply.

Neither of which seem to be attracting people to Scotland. I have never seen anybody from the SNP address what they think actually needs done. It’s easy to say “we need control of X, Y and Z to fix this” but there have never been any suggestions as to policy decisions that might be made. Which makes it all an easy, but empty, argument.

I find their Brexit paper to be rather unsurprising and uninspiring (reading just the summary details), but at least they have published some discussion on the matter. The paper is rather undermined by a number of their panel criticising some of the key options. So we know all the favoured options aren’t practical, which makes it seem like a bit of a vanity exercise to ensure that the SNP can claim that Westminster is ignoring Scotland.

The whole issue around Northern Ireland (and why Scotland is in a different position) has been completely missed in trying to score points against the UK government.

I don’t see why the UK govt can’t present openly something similar. An analysis of the options facing the UK, even if their eventual decision making and strategy is kept quiet.

Sturgeon also has to address the SNP voters who want out of the EU.

What, both of them?

I don’t see why the UK govt can’t present openly something similar. An analysis of the options facing the UK, even if their eventual decision making and strategy is kept quiet.

Any open discussion is going to be difficult for the Tories as it’s likely to undermine public support for Brexit and the pro-Brexit side of the party won’t want that.

Neither of which seem to be attracting people to Scotland.

Quick scan of the office floor around me

A Polish girl and and Italian girl working for me
3 Dutch guys
2 French guys
2 American girls
1 Lebanese guy
1 Latvian guy
1 Chinese guy
1 Spanish guy

No doubt countless others who I don’t work directly with and don’t know they’re foreign.

But yes, absolute no one is attracted to Scotland.

epicsteve – around 30% of those who voted SNP in the last holyrood election voted out in the EU election

The whole issue around Northern Ireland (and why Scotland is in a different position) has been completely missed in trying to score points against the UK government.

Scotland would be in a better position if the Scottish Resistance threatened to blow some things up?

epicsteve – around 30% of those who voted SNP in the last holyrood election voted out in the EU election

Doesn’t matter how they voted for Holyrood though does it? What matters is how they voted on independence.

The problem in Scotland is that the SNP are the only remotely competent party so when voting for Holyrood or Westminster they do get a fair amount of people voting for them that don’t necessarily agree on Independence or even Brexit.

I know a couple of people who voted for independence, then voted to leave the EU. For both of them, independence trumps everything – an independent Scotland in the EU is much preferable.