SNP & Brexit????

Yes Gordi, the whole of Fred’s Edinburgh mafia got away with murder. A real scandal. More bankers should have been convicted for their behaviour.

There is an answer bob, but at 1:15 it can wait until tomorrow. You won’t find it in the book of dreams though.

Ah I see THM I thought there were some banks in London too, but perhaps not or maybe the London based ones all performed to the highest ethical standards.

BoardinBob http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals/

The pound usage tit for tat stuff was embarrassing. I don’t know what the answer is but there needs to be one. I’m assuming you don’t think there is one.

There’s the short term solution that would be initially least damaging, but lead to long term problems and also prohibits EU membership (Panama model).

There’s having a formal currency union, but rUK will never enter into that because it has no upside for them and the control they would exert over iScotland would be significant. No workable solution will ever be found here.

There’s the solution that works the best in the long term, but would be incredibly painful initially backed by our own, new, central bank (new free float currency).

Then there’s the Euro.

Personally, I don’t like any of the options and this will always be one of the major weak points in any independence argument.

http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals

That piece is either oversimplified or ignorant of some basic concepts around “money” and the definitions that are used.

There were Gordi, there were.What we missed down here was a narcissist claiming that they could exist without a central bank providing the lender of last resort function. A crucial difference.

Ah I see THM I thought there were some banks in London too, but perhaps not or maybe the London based ones all performed to the highest ethical standards

Fred the Shred was a uniquely extreme example of unethical behaviour.

The main issue is the size of the banks relative to the economies within which they exist. The UK could do what it did only because of its size. An independent Scotland (if we assume the same size of financial sector as at present) would struggle to do the same.

Banks losing money – meh. Individuals and businesses getting hamstrung as cash is lost and the economy tanks due to loss of confidence – seriously bad.

THM It’s strange then that none of these bankers have been put in the dock at all never mind as quickly as you claimed they would be.

irelanst – Member

I’m struggling to get my head around the successor state ‘stuff’

It’s a meaningless sound bite for people to latch onto and make them feel clever.

“Dog whistle racism” was the last one that came out of nowhere and was then suddenly repeated by the flock ad nauseam.
💡

Grumpysculler I reckon an independent Scotland with its own currency, and it’s own independent central bank outside the euro but in the EU is my ideal scenario. I would also support independence outside the eu. I believe that a nation state should have control of the money supply through a central bank.
Agreed the positivemoney link is very simplified. More detail on pdf here
http://positivemoney.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Creating_a_Sovereign_Monetary_System_Web20130615.pdf
Although I voted Remain I believe the EU is too much under the influence of the banking sector.
TJ got it right when he said that brexit was a complex issue for the snp as approximately a third of independence supporters voted Leave.

When talking about RBS you must remember that it was not a “scottish” bank but a UK one. It did most of its business in England.

I wouldn’t wish “positivemoney” on my worst enemy.

TJ Scottish management. Fred the Shred (so named as he bought businesses and fired people/cut costs) bought NatWest hence all the UK business (lots of SME lending). Their UK business was largely OK. He killed the bank with poor management/acquisition. The UK govt should have taken it over at a price of zero.

It’s [succesor state]a meaningless sound bite for people to latch onto and make them feel clever.

or alternatively its a well established legal precedent that is worthy of consideration.

a successor state is a totally new state. This is distinct from a continuing state, also known as a continuator, which despite change to its borders maintains the same legal personality and possess all its existing rights and obligations.

Its pretty obvious it could apply here[to iS re UK EU membership] as the region/country/state is in the EU and it remains in the EU in changed form.

The argument previously was that if iS left then the rUK was the successor state – did i miss you getting outraged when this was pointed out in previous debates or did you understand it perfectly well then?

Did someone forget to tell Alex that RBS wasn’t a Scottish bank – despite being headquartered there? He certainly used to boast about it being so.

Why was Alex so annoyed when it was leaked that they would move HQ to London if people voted foolishly? Was it because they we saying that they would not want to be a Scottish bank under those circumstances? or juts fancied a change?

Still at least now it is technically a UK bank now owned on our behalf!

How could we forget THM – back when Scotland was the ‘Celtic Lion’ economy 😆

And of course we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world – a global recognition and affection for our culture that money cannot buy.

Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS – two of the world’s biggest banks – Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term.

Said Alex, back in the days when he and Fred were best mates (indeed, the same days when Alex and The Donald were best mates too… you know what they say about how you can judge a man by the company he keeps)

Indeed Ninfan – poor judgement now acknowledged by him publicly. Few politicians will acknowledge they made mistakes – he has done.

I still find all the anti snp stuff funny. Because its being done by folk with poor knowledge they very rarely actually hit on the real mistakes the SNP have made.

Few politicians will acknowledge they made mistakes – he has done.

Problem is his failure to learn from them isn’t it? Keeps on repeating the same political mistakes over and over again:

cozying up to dodgy & corrupt businessmen, gets fingers burned, starts cozying up to different dodgy businessmen,
Wasted public money to try and cover up embarrassing FOI’s, makes an arse of himself, wastes more public money covering up embarrassing (lack of) legal advice.
Spends years campaigning for referendum that he loses, starts campaigning for another referendum

The cynic would say there’s a pattern here… and that’s before we get to his government presiding over widespread public sector abuse and corruption, of which you’ve been a victim yourself IIRC?

On the contrary there is a constant reminder for people to look at what the SNP does not what it says – reality not rhetoric, but that doesn’t go down too well.

They will be accepting referendum results next!!!

can we discuss Dan hannan’s praise of Iceland next?

Lots of politicians get things wrong- hard;y news- and few predicted the financial collapse- hardly news

This is hardly a trait specific to AS as even your hero is less than perfect in his praise of economic titans

How many bankers were prosecuted in the UK THM?

Dan hannan’s praise of Iceland next?

You think that being a minor MEP carries the same sort of political responsibility and judgement as being the First Minister, responsible for the economy, jobs and safety of millions of people 😯

How many politicians do you know of that have publicly said – ” I did this- it was a mistake”

Wasted public money to try and cover up embarrassing FOI’s,

BOris – released press statement saying he would adhere to decision then appealed

I am genuinely not sure AS is exceptional shit by politicians standards but i assume we can all agree he is tainted

Spends years campaigning for referendum that he loses, starts campaigning for another referendum

I hate those politicians who have a conviction and then continue to work for that goal using the democratic process. those idiots have really not got politics now have they 🙄
UKIP would certainly be gone by now had the lost now wouldn’t they and dan would have said nothing about the EU ever again

Its the same old truths/insults that we can level at any party /politicians as essentially we are proving politicians are dishonest and a bit crap. Is this really in any doubt irrespective of whose ribbon – or tie for THM- they wear?

Did any of those who had dinner with THM and/or applied for jobs with him [ unsuccessfully] say this ?

BOris – released press statement saying he would adhere to decision then appealed

You’re saying that Salmond is as much of a political arse as Boris 😆

i am saying he is not the only political arse with shortcomings.

Looks like we agree as you failed to defend either Boris or Dan the man Hannanahahahaha

Are we doing grown up yet?

How many politicians do you know of that have publicly said – ” I did this- it was a mistake”

Nick Clegg. Would have been a great PM(*)

(*) At least by today’s standards, which I agree is a fairly low bar.

Did he? The only one I can think of is a sort of half hearted part apology over the tuition fees promise. which was not ” I made a mistake in voting for tuition fees having said I wouldn’t” but instead ” I should not have made the promise”

correct me if wrong.

its strange as for politicians, like on here, its seen as wrong to admit you were wrong/have changed your opinion as if it better to just spin defect etc when the facts counter your narrative

Not saying i admire AS in this scenario or Clegg but it is better to admit you were wrong than defend the indefensible as some do

The argument previously was that if iS left then the rUK was the successor state – did i miss you getting outraged when this was pointed out in previous debates or did you understand it perfectly well then?

I don’t think it was. The rUK will be the continuing state if Scotland leaves, brexit doesn’t change that.

“The rUK will be the continuing state if Scotland leaves, brexit doesn’t change that “
Surely shome mistake

Even today we can surely all agree that Brexit doesn’t mean that…..or at least not for very long

tjagain – Member

Did he? The only one I can think of is a sort of half hearted part apology over the tuition fees promise. which was not ” I made a mistake in voting for tuition fees having said I wouldn’t” but instead ” I should not have made the promise”

correct me if wrong.

Hmmm, when I saw him speak he was saying he shouldn’t have made that promise. Which seems fair enough to me. I never understood why people thought that in a coalition he would magically have free reign to do whatever he chose.

The irony is that all those holier-than-thou floating voters who switched sides at the 2015 election were fed a tasty sandwich of a Conservative majority swiftly followed by Brexit as a reward. Oops.

😯
What are you trying to say there?

The argument previously was that if iS left then the rUK was the successor state –

don’t think it was. The rUK will be the continuing state if Scotland leaves,

You have disagreed and they just said what I said

brexit doesn’t change that.

It’s blindingly obvious that the UK leaving the EU changes whether there is a possibility of iS having successor state claim to the EU as the UKl has left and their is a membership “up for grabs”

Whether it happens is another debate bit its impossoble to not see the merits in the argument and its ludicrous to claim the UK leaving the EU has no impact on whether iS can have the Uk place as a succesor state

It’s blindingly obvious that the UK leaving the EU changes whether there is a possibility of iS having successor state claim to the EU as the UKl has left and their is a membership “up for grabs”

So do we need a bus with £350m a week on the side again?

While what you suggest is legally possible (pretty much anything is as long as all member states agree), it wouldn’t happen because not all member states would agree. Apart from some who would prefer not to see an independent Scotland within the EU (either because they compete with us or because they have their own separatist movement to worry about) but others would object because, one assumes, an independent Scotland would not take over the UK’s membership in a financially neutral manner. You want the UK’s seat? You can pay the UK’s net contribution…

Indeed Grumpy I mentioned that, TJ himself suggested there where £60bn of future EU liabilities (there aren’t but that’s what some Remainers are suggesting) which the sucessor state would inherit.

You have disagreed and they just said what I said

No, you claimed that people were previously stating that rUK would be a successor state, I’m not aware people were claiming that. It is my understanding that rUK would be a continuing state. Continuing, and successor states are two different things in terms of international law.

It’s blindingly obvious that the UK leaving the EU changes whether there is a possibility of iS having successor state claim to the EU

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. You seem to be referring to a Scotland taking the UKs place in the EU. I am questioning the claim that Scotland would become a successor state – as defined in international law.

We should settle it the old-fashioned way. Since Scotland has Faslane, I think it would all be over fairly quickly.

We have the codes though and everyone with serious hardware reports to Her Majesty in any case 🙂

jambalaya – Member
We have the codes though and everyone with serious hardware reports to Her Majesty in any case

Aye, but it’s primitive technology, and this is Scotland, so someone should be able to hack up a guidance system using a Raspberry Pi and a mobile phone.

Which window would you like it to come through?

Incoming… 🙂

There are no codes (UK weapons are not fitted with a PAL). Launch orders come from Northwood, but the submarine crew are completely autonomous.

Leave it to the Glaswegians and they would either deep fry or drink the warheads…

Given that people focus on the wrong things when criticising the SNP (not that anything is their fault), what are the headlines today?

1. The failures of education policy
2. Donors and their tax affairs

Good to see that things are so different with the SNP. Rhetoric v reality.

I guess Swinney has apologised for the cock-up with one. So that’s ok, all is forgiven.