SNP & Brexit????

It’s good to have confirmation that this was never a Scottish vs English thing though.

Indeed. 😀

How will it go when you have a Scotland v Frankfurt thing though? Its not fair, they dont allow us to do what we want, have interest rates that suit us etc….Its our Euro, but they can keep their debts….we’re oot

sorry – william – not meant to be condescending its just many of the commentators on here are not interesting in finding stuff out just in scoring debating points / goading / trolling folk

Yours was a good post with good points hence I answered and offered to give you more sources if you wanted them

Lost nuance in text discussions.

Being the successor state makes remaining in much easier – its the easier path for all to take. Currency as ever remains a huge issue you are right. We could do a Sweden and say we will take the euro but just keep on putting it off for ever. We could still use the pound but even without Westminster putting barriers in the way thats far from perfect or we could have a scottish pooond. My preference would be to take tre Euro but selling that to the public would be very hard

Non are particularly good options and this remains IMO the biggest issue

sBob – As junkyard says and also thats from when the circumstances are different.

Junkyard – lazarus

the fact that there are other views and this source has an internal reason to state this that is not repeated by other EU leaders. His opinion is not a fact neither is yours mine or TJ’s.

you can use the one quote you can find and ignore all the others you don’t like as you see fit but its a bit rich to accuse someone else of not liking some quotes.

For Scotland to become a member state would take the agreement of all 27 existing member states.
It would only take one to object, that’s the point. I’m not ignoring other opinions on the subject but an infinite number of voices will still be shouted down by the one with the veto.

The biggest barrier of course is actually getting a majority for independence in a referendum. There has not been the movement in the polls many of us thought would happen

tjagain – Member

sBob – As junkyard says and also that’s from when the circumstances were different.

“If the United Kingdom leaves”
How are our circumstances different from this viewpoint?

tjagain – Member

My preference would be to take the Euro

Reported for trolling.

teamhurtmore – Member
…Poor old Welsh (and N Irish) being forgotten all the time – and some say that the English are myopic!!…

Myopic? Blind I’d say if they haven’t noticed that the subject of this thread is “SNP & Brexit” 🙂

It’s not for the Scots to tell the Welsh or NI how to run their affairs, that’d be as obnoxious as having English Establishment nobs telling Scots how to run theirs.

Oh, wait… 🙂

tjagain, I concede that there comes a point where a special application process looks for all the world like Scotland becoming a successor state (Scotland applies and joins the EU on the same date the UK leaves) but there would be crucial differences as a successor state would, normally, be expected to take on all the responsibilities of the outgoing state. Its very unlikely that the EU would allow Scotland to enjoy the same vetoes and perks that the UK currently enjoys.

There is also the issue of timing. If HMG wins the Supreme Court decision and the PM triggers A50 straight away (unlikely I know) Do the Scottish government have enough time to broker a deal and then hold a referendum? do the Scottish electorate have sufficient time to come to an informed decision as to what to do next? I’m not convinced.

For Scotland to become a member state would take the agreement of all 27 existing member states.

we are still discussing them RETAINING the UK membership

I’m not ignoring other opinions on the subject but an infinite number of voices will still be shouted down by the one with the veto.

which is still just your opinion of what the vote will be on
WE DONT KNOW
You have made your view clear you and YJ can repeat the same points for the next three pages as THM does hilarious sidebars

Do the Scottish government have enough time to broker a deal and then hold a referendum?

they have the same time as the UK have to exit – with another ref 😉 – and i imagine continued membership will be easier to agree than an exit deal

Yes time will be tight but its not insurmountable- none of this means I can predict the future but its nit outlandish to think they can do this in the time frame.

we are still discussing them RETAINING the UK membership

We’re discussing them keeping something they don’t have?
NOW it’s all clear.
🙂

You have made your view clear you and TJ can repeat the same points for the next three pages as THM does hilarious sidebars

Don’t mention THM, you’ll get us detention!

i have no doubt you are speculating like he is

and i imagine continued membership will be easier to agree than an exit deal

just leave that here

sbob – Member
We’re discussing them keeping something they don’t have?
NOW it’s all clear.

You’re probably right, but there’s another angle.

The UK is so because of a Treaty of Union in which the parties are supposedly equal. Scotland is not one of England’s conquered subject countries, it’s a supposed partner.

When a partnership breaks up it’s normal for the assets etc to be distributed, so on that basis, Scotland does have a share in the UK’s membership.

Maybe the Scottish govt diplomatic efforts should be in convincing EU countries that as the Treaty of Union has been breached on so many occasions it’s high time it was dissolved, and that the EU recognise that the UK is a union of countries, not England and its possessions.

I don’t get the point of this. We voted to stay in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. This is done and dusted arguing about it is a total waste of time.

We’re discussing them keeping something they don’t have?
NOW it’s all clear

Well the Uk wont exist at that point will it or be in the EU so someone can have it 😉

just leave that here

i have no issue with the fact I am speculating and none of us know for sure what will happen. I have said that in pretty much every post though i did say can and not cant for predict the future 🙂

Well the UK wont exist at that point will it

So one down, 27 member states to go! 😀

😆

One thing I have been thinking about is if England et al sans Scotland could apply for EU membership.
Many European politicians threatened that there would be no going back for the UK, but if the union dissolves could we not have both halves then apply for membership?
Maybe I should start another thread… 😀
29 member states and counting!

william – timing is an issue. So long as the independence referendum is won before the leaving date it should be OK

’tis an interesting one ‘cos on one hand UK leaving the EU makes scottish membership of the EU easier but it also takes away Sturgeons ability to pick the timing. I think about midway thru the a50 process should be OK – gives enough time for the leavers case to be shown to be nonsense and foe everyone to see what a disaster it is and just about enough time to get agreement in principle for Scotland to stay in the EU

but if the union dissolves could we not have both halves then apply for membership?

top move

Its a perfect outcome for all concerned

I imagine this is why the PM is being so quiet as she want to see the look on their faces when she reveals her plan for A50 to the EU personally

UK leaving the EU makes Scottish membership of the EU easier possible.

😉

Tjagain. halfway through would give a year. cant see that being long enough to come to an agreement with HMG , draft and ratify a section 30 order, produce a white paper and hold a referendum.(although getting the bill through the scottish parliament should be a skoosh as they dont seem to have much else on)

of course that’s assuming its a two year process, most of the policy guys i have spoken to don’t believe that is an achievable timescale. very few believe it can be done within the lifetime of this parliament in fact

william

Westminster is told – agree or we do it on our own. Westminster playing hardball over another referendum would add a good few points onto the yes vote. No hold up there

Uk leaving the EU will be a two year process.

preparatory work has already been done for another referendum

I agree tho the timetable is tight and thats not going to make it easy.

The main issue as I see it is that the SNP have to reconcile 2 difficult things. 30% of SNP voters voted out in the euro referendum and 20%(ish)( no in the independence referendum

Somehow they have to find some answer to this before they can be confident of winning a vote

I don’t get the point of this. We voted to stay in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. This is done and dusted arguing about it is a total waste of time.

Unless you lost and were in the minority.

Don’t mention THM, you’ll get us detention!

sbob, dont worry, some can never accept responsibility for their own actions, much better to have scapegoats. Cant you see the trend…..

“The main issue as I see it is that the SNP have to reconcile 2 difficult things.”

I think the main issue is having nearly lost the Scottish Referendum and lost the Brexit Referendum the establishment will never have another Referendum, ever, ever, ever again.

Rightly, in my opinion.

If Westminster play hardball they are gifting several % points to the Yes side. It could be done without westminster approval but it would be difficult and not binding on Westminster leaving Scotland to go to the UN

Sturgeon ain’t gonna call one tho unless she is sure

I find it a little odd that it is (sadly) accepted that one referendum which produced a 48/52 split cannot be re-run & yet people are suggesting that one which was lost 45/55 can be re-addressed within a few years…

I think the main issue is having nearly lost the Scottish Referendum and lost the Brexit Referendum the establishment will never have another Referendum, ever, ever, ever again.

Rightly, in my opinion.

Given the amount of BS, agreed.

And politicians legislate against companies telling lies. Imagine a bank or a telephone company writing 670 pages of rubbish in attempt to fool their customers. The CEOs would be in the dock, faster that you can say “Alex Salmond”.

I’m struggling to get my head around the successor state ‘stuff’

Back before the indy referendum the EU gave a reply to the Scottish government regarding staying in the EU which stated;

“The Commission’s position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of occasions since 2004. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory. “

And the leave supporters jumped on the wording used insisting that it didn’t apply to Scotland because Scotland is a country, not “part of the territory” or a “region” of the UK.

But now apparently according to the some “senior and influential EU politicians” Scotland will be a successor state;

“a successor state is a totally new state. This is distinct from a continuing state, also known as a continuator, which despite change to its borders maintains the same legal personality and possess all its existing rights and obligations.”

My bold for emphasis, so what I am struggling with is if Scotland is currently recognised as a country, then how can it become a new (successor) state? I appreciate that the UK, England, Scotland or Wales and NI (THM 😉 ) are not signatories to the The Vienna Convention on Succession of States, so to a certain extent are free to make thing up as they go along, but I just can’t see how this all adds up, I’m guessing the SNP must have some legal advice on the issue though 🙂

Sucessor state. Well someone has to pay the £363m per week. Also with Scotland being the sucessor state it would save the £60bn in future liabilities TJ says the UK has when it leaves the EU. Plus Scotland can have RBS back too, you have that for nothing as a parting gift. I have to say on that basis I’d be pro-Independence.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/807610243370930176?s=09

So Scotland is successful (in GDP per capita terms, at least) as part of the UK and that’s a reason to break up the UK? Erm…

Perhaps we are only able to reach such dizzy heights of success because we are part of the UK.

Boarding even more reason for you to join the EU and bolster their coffers and help pay for their disasterous mistakes.

I don’t get the point of this. We voted to stay in the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. This is done and dusted arguing about it is a total waste of time.

@poah this is STW, it’s not like the real world 🙂

” Imagine a bank or a telephone company writing 670 pages of rubbish in attempt to fool their customers. The CEOs would be in the dock”

Myopia THM or are you forgetting 2008 already?

I was driving past Fred the Shred’s old house in Edinburgh recently Gordi – bought it off family of friends of mine. We don’t need reminding on the rise, fall and fall or the Royal Bank of Scotland do we? Although those pretending that Scotland could survive without a lender of last resort are/were clearly suffering from myopia. That or total ignorance.

Well what happened to poor old Fred THM how quickly was he put in the dock? Were nt some other banks/bankers involved too.

I just can’t see how this all adds up

In the first example the UK remains in the EU in the later some part of the UK leaves the EU but not all of it- ie some part of it[iS] can still claim accession /to still be a member under the previous treaty. Its not new its continuing all be it with some border changes to the “state/nation”.
I am sure the EU can recognise who it wants to be this state- reality if not legally.

they are different scenarios basically

Not saying it will happen but the UK remaining in the EU and the UK leaving does make a difference to the debate iS would be having.

those pretending that Scotland could survive without a lender of last resort are/were clearly suffering from myopia.

One of the key reasons I voted no in the indyref. We need some certainty around central banking. The pound usage tit for tat stuff was embarrassing. I don’t know what the answer is but there needs to be one. I’m assuming you don’t think there is one.