Smoking ban and Smokers

2 extra pillows

There not pillows!!!

Protecting health, reducing the burden on the NHS is a reason to ban it.

See also beer, wine, cake, red meat etc. etc.

Were you moonlighting for the Chippendales?

I look nothing like Chipps.

round here Drac – yes.  When I first started drinking round here women of any sort were rarely seen unless with a bloke.  Now they feel safe and welcomed enough to go to the bars without a bloke in gaggles.

You’re probably out by at least 10 years. Certainly since the later 80s and definitely 90s women have been out drinking in groups.

I see you’ve disproved my statement entirely by accusing me of being self-centred for me advocating people being left alone to do whatever they like, without being harassed by tedious self_righteous dullards

No I disapproved more of you being a tedious, blow hard bore. I frankly couldn’t give two shits if people smoke in beer gardens or elsewhere I just find you particular brand of “discussion” pretty immature and your ability to somehow label someone who doesn’t want smoking in a beer garden as sexless bizarre. The sixth formers I teach could muster a better argument.

The fact you keep banging the “cars produce worse health effects” drum is laughable as cars do being some positives to society, smoking just kills people, the fact that you can’t see this or indeed the massive positive impacts on health of mountainbiking highlights just how hard of thinking you are. But you keep being you champ, we all need an angry man child to laugh at on occasion.

Smoking is one of the few, if only past time that can have such a negative impact on others not willing to participate. The smokers still want to have their tab in the beer garden, because they can. Irrelevant if it negatively impacts others.

So if anyone is that offended by others smoking they CHOOSE to go to another establishment that CHOOSES to not allow it on their premises . I no longer smoke cigarettes but as a welder I spend at least 8 hours a day INSIDE a factory where there are FAR more hazardous fumes than would be produced by smokers in a beer garden. I wear an enclosed air filtering welding screen when I’m welding but many of the other lads that don’t weld arent supplied with them, should welding indoors also be banned?

should welding indoors also be banned?

No, I think you’ve answered your own question.   It shouldn’t be banned but use of adequate PPE and/or ventilation should be enforced.

Smoking is one of the few, if only past time that can have such a negative impact on others not willing to participate.

Such a negative impact? How many people do you think die every year because they happened to have been in the same beer garden as someone having a cigarette?

The problem is that smoking is relatively harmlessly, you can literally smoke dozens of cigarettes every day for decades and it won’t necessarily kill you, I know because I have done it, if it was extremely dangerous no one would actually do it.

It is precisely because smoking generally takes such a long time to kill someone that it survives as an unhealthy habit within society.

The way some people are talking you would be forgiven for thinking that 3 or 4 cigarettes is enough to kill someone.

Certainly since the later 80s and definitely 90s women have been out drinking in groups.

Not round here Drac.  In the 80s it was full on trainspotting – this is where trainspotting happened.  My fave bar now then had strippers on the bar ( obviously it doesn’t now)  fights were a regular occurrence.  BY the early 90s when I moved here gentrification had started but women in the local bars were still a rare sight and many of the bars werwe still pretty rough.  The leith casuals had their own bar here at the time.

I’m loving the schrodingers pubs – simultaneously really busy and well run but so marginal that a few smokers stopping going will mean bankruptcy

No, I think you’ve answered your own question. It shouldn’t be banned but use of adequate PPE and/or ventilation should be enforced.

A few of the lads still smoke in there as well ( it’s more common than a lot of people on here seem to realise), funnily enough non of the non smokers are bothered in the slightest and in the 11 years I’ve worked there nobody has died from inhaling 2nd hand cigarette smoke

TBH, I’m one of those who really hates the smell of cigarette smoke (despite my father being a smoker). However, I can’t actually recall the last time I really felt put upon by a smoker outside a pub. I rarely see folk smoking at all these days. In fact (although it may be because they’re just more noticeable) I reckon I see more vapers than smokers – and the vapes tend to be more intrusive.

I frankly couldn’t give two shits if people smoke in beer gardens or elsewhere

Well you clearly do as you’ve got your list of ‘things that I don’t like so should therefore be banned’

Personally I think people should be left to get on with their lives without being lectured on how to live them by sanctimonious little Hitlers and then threatened with prosecution if they don’t do as they’re told

Each to their own and all that

Not round here Drac.  In the 80s it was full on trainspotting – this is where trainspotting happened.

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/history/gallery/throwback-1980s-edinburgh-photos-show-27648006

I mean even Trainspotting had Rentboy new girl out on her own, Ok she wasn’t middle aged.

I’m loving the schrodingers pubs – simultaneously really busy and well run but so marginal that a few smokers stopping going will mean bankruptcy

Well over 20% of England’s pubs have shut since the smoking ban came in and there is no indication that it is slowing down as they get increasingly expensive as fewer customers have to cover their fixed costs, which drives away more customers – I doubt I go to the pub more than once a month – dropping £50 for a few drinks is noticeable.

Drac – thats a few miles from here.  In the 80s leith was rough as anything and very seedy.  Even in the early 90s the street behind my flat was lined with hookers, heroin addicts were an obvious presence as were the leith casuals ( football hooligans)

Its not about the health affects of second hand smoke, the latest proposals are about making smoking even more anti social in preparation for a complete ban. Personally I’d just go to the age related ban talked about earlier this year alongside a massive clamp down on advertising and sale of tapes so the kids don’t move to them wholesale.

I’m working in Germany at the moment (which seems to be 10 to 15 years behind the UK in many respects) and smoking is much more evident here, despite indoor bans. Cigarettes are still displayed in supermarkets and there seem to be vending machines on the street and airports have full on smoking lounges (nicotine stained glass boxes).

Well you clearly do as you’ve got your list of ‘things that I don’t like so should therefore be banned’

Do I? Where is it?

I could start one here if you like.

Fox hunting

Binners

Scottish rugby

Sprouts

I’ll add some more later

So you’re talking of a very small area in Leith. I’m talking about pretty much the rest of the UK.

Well over 20% of England’s pubs have shut since the smoking ban came in and there is no indication that it is slowing down as they get increasingly expensive as fewer customers have to cover their fixed costs

The smoking ban is just one very small part of that. Cheap supermarket alcohol would certainly have a bigger effect.

Drac – thats a few miles from here

Less than a mile from Easter Road.

yes I am Drac – hence talking about the locality and how its changed and how the pubs have changed to attract a new clientele including attracting women into the pubs – a huge change in the time I have been here.  The pubs had to adapt to survive

I could start one here if you like.

Fox hunting

Binners

Scottish rugby

Sprouts

I’ll add some more later

Two issues:

1) If you’re banning sprouts then cabbage is going too

2) You’re not banning Scottish Rugby and leaving the rest of us to endure it. I ****ing hate rugby and it should all be banned. Full stop

Banning me would be perfectly acceptable though and I can’t argue with your logic

I’d ban handbag duels on STW threads ;-)

The smoking ban is just one very small part of that. Cheap supermarket alcohol would certainly have a bigger effect.

It’s not actually, the rate of pub closures quadrupled after the smoking ban so whilst it is probably an exaggeration to say it is responsible for 3 in 4 closures, it is likely to be the major factor.

I’m working in Germany at the moment (which seems to be 10 to 15 years behind the UK in many respects) and smoking is much more evident here, despite indoor bans. Cigarettes are still displayed in supermarkets and there seem to be vending machines on the street and airports have full on smoking lounges (nicotine stained glass boxes).

The Germans are so civilized.

smoking ban increased footfall in local pubs here.

Edit – or perhaps more accurately footfall continued to increase after the smoking ban

It’s not actually, the rate of pub closures quadrupled after the smoking ban so whilst it is probably an exaggeration to say it is responsible for 3 in 4 closures, it is likely to be the major factor.

So it is an exaggeration to blame the smoking ban.

No, anything that multiplies the existing rate of closure is a major cause.

See also beer, wine, cake, red meat etc. etc.

Drinking beer, wine or eating red meat or cake have no impact on the people at the table next to you.  Smoking does.  Some people tolerate it, but smoking is inconsiderate, eating red meat isn’t.

Drinking beer, wine or eating red meat or cake have no impact on the people at the table next to you.

You’ve just introduced the “table next to you” bit. I listed those things in response to you saying this:

Protecting health, reducing the burden on the NHS is a reason to ban it.

They all damage health and “create a burden on the NHS” so by your own logic they should also be banned?

I’m a life long non smoker and a regular pub goer. It was right to ban it indoors but not (imo) in pub gardens. The health risks are infinitesimally small outdoors and in every pub garden I’ve ever been in, it’s possible to sit far enough away from smokers for it to be a total non issue. A ban would be petty, disproportionate and unnecessary and people objecting to a faint occasional whiff are drama queens imo. You may feel differently, that’s fine too :-)

You know I don’t even smoke, yeah? Haven’t done for over ten years

You haven’t smoked cigarettes in ten years.  Claiming that you don’t smoke because you vape instead is like claiming to be vegan because you only eat chicken, or to be tee-total because you’ve given up the whisky and just drink beer. You’re still a smoker, you’ve just changed the delivery method.

I mean, well done and all, credit where it’s due.  But you don’t get to take the moral high ground here.

should welding indoors also be banned?

It sounds like a potential COSHH issue if it’s as hazardous as you claim.

if it was extremely dangerous no one would actually do it.

Well, that’s simply not true, is it. Plenty of people do extremely dangerous things on a regular basis, sometimes because it’s dangerous.  YouTube is awash with Eastern Europeans doing one-handed pull-ups at the top of 100m tall chimneys.  And of of course, many Class A’s are well known for their safety record.

So it is an exaggeration to blame the smoking ban.

The Financial Crisis will have played a part.

smoking is inconsiderate, eating red meat isn’t.

The cow might disagree. (-:

I mean, well done and all, credit where it’s due.  But you don’t get to take the moral high ground here

Ok, so now you’re suggesting that people might get lung cancer from getting a whiff of someone’s vape in a beer garden ?

Morality doesn’t come into it. It’s just about whether you consider the fact that you don’t like something means it should be banned

We all know that if they get away with this nonsense of banning smoking in pub beer gardens, then rather than celebrating their pointless victory, the next sentence out of their mouths will be ‘now let’s stop people vaping too’

As sure as night follows day

if it was extremely dangerous no one would actually do it.

Well, that’s simply not true, is it.

It is very true. When was the last time you saw someone playing Russian roulette? Never would be my guess, because frankly Russian roulette is so extremely dangerous that people won’t play it.

Smoking is not so dangerous that you are likely to die because someone in the same beer garden as you is smoking. If smoking was that dangerous all smokers would be dead within a week.

Smoking is dangerous but the problem is that you can smoke a great deal for a very long time without necessarily dying from it, or even suffering serious long-term irreversible damage, if you stop after years of doing it.

That is why it is an unhealthy and dangerous habit which is so difficult to stamp out…… it doesn’t kill a large amount of people very quickly.

the next sentence out of their mouths will be ‘now let’s stop people vaping too’

Which would be excellent given the health issues associated with vaping.  Its a health crisis in the making.  I’d be quite happy with all nicotine replacement going back on prescription

The Financial Crisis will have played a part.

Yes, but the rate quadrupled before the financial crisis and the rate of closure in 2008 and 2009 was about 3% compared to 0.82% in the recession of the early 80s and 1.5% in the one of the early 90s so still much higher than one would expect based on previous recessions.

The problem with smoking tobacco is that it makes all the air pollution stick to the lungs.

so, while the pubs have swelled onto the pavements, theres simply too much toxic pollution from road traffic to make the consumption of kerbside comestibles safe, let alone a single ciggy.

factor in the fumes from gas central heating, and all that air pollution agglomerates into a thick miasma that fails to disperse.

so, even if you don’t smoke tobacco, it’s safer to use your e-bike to reach your locus of imbibification at a higher, windier altitude (staying within drink-driving regs).

Which would be excellent given the health issues associated with vaping.  Its a health crisis in the making

Nonsense on stilts

What health issues associated with vaping? I’ll tell you what… if there are any proven ones it’s a damn site less than smoking 20 B&H a day.

But back on topic, neither of these things is going to have the slightest detrimental impact on anybody stood in a beer garden with anyone indulging in either, so it’s a moot point

its less than 20 B&H for sure but the risks are now becoming evident.  Cancer risk will not show up for 20 years but other lung damage is now becoming evident

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-guardian/20240909/281629605640279

Ok, so now you’re suggesting that people might get lung cancer from getting a whiff of someone’s vape in a beer garden ?

Yes, of course that’s exactly what I was saying, obviously.  I went to the pub just this Sunday lunchtime and someone was smoking outside and then everyone died.

For all that you bitch about other people complaining, you’re the one doing it the most vociferously here by a very long chalk (again).  If you want to win people over on your crusade then a little introspection might go a long way.  I don’t disagree that banning smoking in beer gardens is a stupid idea (not least because it’ll either be ignored or push people out onto the pavement instead), but frothing hysterically because some people don’t want a faceful of smoke whilst they eat their lunch is just going to get readers reaching for the Binners Bingo card.  I just need “magic grandad” for a line.

Because really, that’s all I’d ask.  If someone wants to smoke, at least make a token effort to stand downwind, or wait 15 minutes between tabs whilst I shove a bowl of fries down.  Then put their dog end in the bin rather than pinging it across the floor.  Is a modicum of consideration for others such an outrageous request?

it’s a damn site less than smoking 20 B&H a day.

20 B&H a day ? So you weren’t even addicted ?

Two packets was a good day for me. And not your pouncey B&H with their silly filters….. Capstan Full Strength or Senior Service, where you can inhale the tar straight into your lungs unimpeded.

also on health risks with vaping – you are of course taking in nicotine which has known adverse effects on your cardiovascular system

Of course vaping has health risks.  Lower than fags for sure but certainly non zero