Smoking ban and Smokers

I have watched this around my locale for 30+ years.  I have seen the pubs that take a clientele for granted struggle.  I have seen the innovative ones boom

child friendly

Ahh yes, the indoctrination of small children that imbibing a poison is the right thing to do

TJ most pubs I visit are already doing most of the stuff on your list. Food, dog & child friendly etc.etc.

Once again, you are focussed on a city where there is scope for loads of options.  Where there are 1 or 2 pubs in a village, I’m not sure a hipster, gin or wine pub would work.

No – but that pub needs to attract more customers and get them into the habit of going.  One of the big expansions here in the 30 years I have lived is groups of middleaged women.  30 years ago they did not go into the pubs.  Now its common

so for that sort of pub it needs to be a hub of village life – not just for the men who smoke.  so games nights, even the seemingly ridiculous sewing night.  Charity nights, competitions, board games etc

But as above pubs and pub going have been in general decline for years as folk drink less overall.  Some may not be able to do this especially in a village that has become a commutter village.

[TJ’s list]

Find a niche and concentrate on that

TJ my local already does everything on that list. In fact it’s one of the most famous grassroots music venues in the country and has a list of DJs who have played there which most superclubs and big venues would be jealous of. By any measure it’s a successful pub, but it still struggles in the winter and quieter times and relies on the locals who all mostly smoke to keep it going. It even gives the locals discounted beer prices as they recognise their importance and this ban will drive many away.

Would you agree that it is fair to say that we are all immune to the smell of the fumes, from the vehicles that have surrounded us for the entirety of our lives ?

I’d agree that it’s a lazy false equivalence often trotted out by smokers to justify their habit.  Asserting that because bad thing #2 exists, bad thing #1 must be less bad is woolly-headed thinking.

If I work across town, I need some form of transport.  This is not a wildly uncommon scenario.  I don’t need drugs in order to get to work (though there has been times where it would probably have helped).  We need vehicles, it’s a fact of life, be that cars or public transport.  I’m not going to be cycling from Lancashire to Cornwall for a two week holiday, it took eight hours to drive down and ten to get back, and I barely got everything in the car.

We’re moving in the right direction with EVs and hybrids but the infrastructure isn’t there yet (I struggled to find a petrol station in Cornwall let alone a charging point), they’re hellishly expensive and their long-term longevity is an unknown.

Conversely, I managed an 18 hour round trip without a fag on the go.

Yes it is. TJ you know that banning drugs doesn’t work, as you argue in the legalisation of drugs thread you started. What makes you think a ban on smoking will work where banning other drugs hasn’t? All that will happen is a massive black market will be created along with all the crime and associated violence which comes with it.

This. Ban it, push it into the shadows, open another door for the criminal gangs.

I’m an ex-smoker, almost 20 years now. Hate the smell but don’t believe it should be banned. We need a grown up conversation.

but don’t believe it should be banned.

it won’t just be suddenly banned. The strategy (which is very sensible IMO) is just to make it gradually less & less appealing over time. It will die out naturally as successive generations cotton on to how **** stupid/expensive/inconvenient it is.

Find a niche and concentrate on that

To summarise that and many of the other comments on this thread:

Look at them! Just look at them with their football tops, their Turkey teeth, false tans, fizzy lager and Monster Munch, nipping into the toilet to hoover up lines of bad gak then going out to the garden to blow Marlboro Red Smoke and chewing gum flavoured vapes all over the place

Can they not sip a nice craft ale, or maybe a nice Sauvignon and have some olives?

Food

Great idea but requires a great deal of space not always available.

Dog friendly

Meh.  I don’t know many pubs which are dog-hostile.

Music

That can go either way.  Little will drive me away from a pub faster than karaoke night.  I go to a pub to chat with friends, not compete with Doris and Brian murdering ‘Summer Nights.’

Regular events

“Events”?

Bigger range of drinks

Again, requires space. Did you ever not go in a pub because the drink choice was poor?  Perhaps this is a “know your clientele” argument?  Like, set up as a gin bar or a whisky bar maybe.

Unorthodox advertising ( the pub I was in last night has got into various guides and was on netflix)

I thought you didn’t believe in advertising?

History of the building / area

Not sure what you mean here. You’re talking about adapting, you can’t just invent history. You could stick up some old photos I suppose, but that’s not why people go to pubs.

Promotions

This has legs, happy hour and 2-for-1 and all that.

child friendly

Child prohibited I could get behind. (-:

Games available

Have you seen the games in a pub? A copy of Monopoly with half the pieces missing. I would -love- a board game pub but it’s expensive to maintain and I’m an outlier here.  Traditional pub games like Shut The Box might work, but again it’s audience-dependent.

Sport on TV

Sport prohibited I could get behind.

Regular tasting nights,

This is interesting. How might that work? Essentially a mini beer festival?

Half price days

Great for getting people through the door, less good for turning a profit.

One local pub even had a sewing night

Now, that is brilliant.

Surprised you missed off pub quizzes, that would seem to be low-hanging fruit.

Ahh yes, the indoctrination of small children that imbibing a poison is the right thing to do

It works quite well for religion.

We all know the type of people proposing this law and others like it. We’ve all met them. Unfortunately. Just read some of the comments on this thread

They represent a certain type of pinch-faced, sexless, we-know-best, small-minded authoritarianism that seems so specifically English. They obviously feel they’ve got a receptive ear in Starmer as they seek to impose their petty, tepid, magnolia, Presbyterian worldview on the rest of us until everyone’s lives are as sterile and joyless as theirs.

People like this should always be ignored

With any new proposed law, especially one with far-reaching consequences, just ask one simple question… is it actually doing anyone any harm?

If the answer, as in the case of smoking in beer gardens is obviously no, then FFS just let people get on with their lives, even if it involves things you don’t like. There’s no way on earth a new government should be wasting its time on nonsense like this

You seem angry Binners. Why don’t you lie down for a bit and have a fag!

Can they not sip a nice craft ale, or maybe a nice Sauvignon and have some olives?

The secret of my local is that it caters for everyone. On any given weekday the first in there are usually the local alcoholic pensioners who have nothing to do, then some other groups of mostly pensioners turn up on a day out. Then all the local buliders and tradesmen turn up at 5ish for a few after work, shortly followed by other locals (like myself) who go most nights but don’t want to be there at 5pm. Then all the people going to eat food. Then the kids, hipsters, boat people and a smattering of local toe-rags turn up depending on what is on any particular day. All these groups mix perfectly well (for the most part) and interact with each other. I don’t know of any pub where the local scagheads speak to the hipsters and middle class professionals. On the weekend it’s much the same but you can also add loads of tourists from out of town who come for the DJs who normally play much bigger venues. This is the secret of its success, and if you removed some of those groups and focused on a niche it wouldn’t survive.

And as if to prove the point It actually used to rent out it’s side room to a local craft ale bottleshop. It was great and I used to go there all the time, but guess what? It closed after a few years because the dozen or so craft ale beer snobs who were its main customers didn’t go there every night, and when they did they only had a couple of beers over a couple of hours.

Daz, my local is similar. We go down there a couple of nights after work and every Friday for a proper sesh. They don’t do food as there’s no kitchen. It’s a proper boozer. So there’s us lot having after work drinks, teenagers and early teeny-somethings playing pool and pretty obviously snorting coke, pensioners in after walking their dogs. A real mix, as pubs should be. You can vape inside because nobody cares, least of all the landlord. He knows his clientele.

The ‘beer garden, such as it is, is a couple of picnic tables in the car park. It’s right next to the main road where the traffic is permanently nose-to-tail and stationary, all belting out exhaust fumes. To ban smoking on the grounds of air quality would be beyond preposterous

People like this should always be ignored

Have you considered following your own advice?  Standing on a table, pointing and screaming “SEE HIM OVER THERE?  IGNORE HIM!!” has the opposite effect to the one intended.

Did you ever not go in a pub because the drink choice was poor?

yes

Sounds like some of your locals are too marginal and too poorly run to survive then.  Letting folk vape indoors?  Thats put off huge numbers of potential punters

If losing a small % of the small% of folk who smoke is going to kill the pub then its too marginal to survive

Cougar – we also have no music and no telly pubs round here

This is the secret of its success,

It sounds hellish.

Cougar – we also have no music and no telly pubs round here

Excellent.

I don’t mind music in a pub.  I just object to spending half the night going “WHAT?!” unless there’s a band on which isn’t shit.  Cranking out Stock Aitken & Waterman’s back catalogue at 110dB when there’s three people in the pub one of whom is the bar staff is just barking.  I couldn’t be doing with it in Yates’ Wine Lodge when I was 20, I sure as hell can’t be bothered with it when I’m 50.

It sounds hellish.

Yeah stay away.

Sounds like some of your locals are too marginal and too poorly run to survive then.  Letting folk vape indoors?  Thats put off huge numbers of potential punters

It’s always really busy and has a really good atmosphere about the place

Here’s a mad idea… maybe not everyone wants the same thing as you? Revolutionary stuff eh? It’s not a poncey  ‘gentrified’ gastropub. It’s an old school boozer where you go to neck 6 pints of Stella while watching the match. The landlord knows his clientele and has done the maths

whereas for many folk what you describe is a real turn off and is actively pushing folk away.  YOU illustrate exactly what I am saying.  concentrating on your core clientele when its a reducing number is recipe for failure.

We have old school boozers as well – I took you into one IIRC

They represent a certain type of pinch-faced, sexless,

This is the problem that I have……. smoking isn’t just cool it’s also sexy.

God I miss smoking 🙁

whereas for many folk what you describe is a real turn off and is actively pushing folk away

Luckily there’s plenty of other places for them to go, some of which I’ve taken you in

This is my point. The government saying smoking should be banned in ALL beer gardens is just nonsense, because it lumps every establishment in together with no regard as to what the owner, landlord or clientele want

Its just what some whiney, self-righteous middle class people in London want and they think they have the right to impose it on all of us

seems so specifically English. They ….Presbyterian

Errrr

One of the big expansions here in the 30 years I have lived is groups of middleaged women.  30 years ago they did not go into the pubs.

Really? I’ve been drinking in pubs for over 30 years and there’s always been groups of middle aged women.

Really? I’ve been drinking in pubs for over 30 years and there’s always been groups of middle aged women.

Were you moonlighting for the Chippendales?

Yeah stay away.

Oh, rest assured, I fully intend to.  I’ve shared a pub with you, it wasn’t an experience I’m in any hurry to repeat.

Uncle Jezza – next time you’re down I’m going to take you down to my local and make you drink 6 pints of Stella and watch the United match while everyone vapes around you

You’ll love it! 😀

I’ve shared a pub with you, it wasn’t an experience I’m in any hurry to repeat.

That’s what was missing from this thread………. not enough bitchiness!

round here Drac – yes.  When I first started drinking round here women of any sort were rarely seen unless with a bloke.  Now they feel safe and welcomed enough to go to the bars without a bloke in gaggles.

Binners – last time I drank Stella it did not end well.  Just to warn you. I was on an overnight ferry, got lost trying to find my cabin and woke up with 2 extra pillows I stole from someone elses cabin.

United match?  does that not count as cruel and unusual punishment

Fair play. I’ll spare you the United match. Nobody deserves to endure that and it might be a bit embarrassing for all involved, watching me cry

That’s what was missing from this thread………. not enough bitchiness!

I’ve shared a pub with both of them on quite a few occasions Ernesto and it’s always been frightfully civilised.

Then again, maybe it all went off big time between them when I was outside in the beer garden having a vape?

last time I drank Stella it did not end well.  Just to warn you. I was on an overnight ferry, got lost trying to find my cabin and woke up with

Promising start…

2 extra pillows

…..Mildly disappointing finish

Quite refreshing that a ‘too much Stella’ story didn’t end with a conviction for domestic violence though, so extra pillows for the win 😀

We all know the type of people desperate to keep smoking around others. We’ve all met them. Unfortunately. Just read some of the comments on this thread

They represent a certain type of pinch-faced, sexless, we-know-best, small-minded self centered bore that seems so specifically English

I see what you did there. Very good. Did it take you long.

I see you’ve disproved my statement entirely by accusing me of being self-centred for me advocating people being left alone to do whatever they like, without being harassed by tedious self_righteous dullards

It’s an interesting interpretation

You know I don’t even smoke, yeah? Haven’t done for over ten years

You feel free to keep cuddling those 2 extra pillows of your righteousness though. They know you’re right. 😀

No it doesn’t. If I want to kill myself by smoking, drugs, alcohol, mountain biking or other dangerous sports like skiing and climbing that’s my right and it’s got f*** all to do wiith the govt or handwringing idiots who should mind their own business. Passive smoking in beer gardens harms no one. If non-smokers don’t like the smell they can go to a pub which voluntarily doesn’t allow smoking in beer gardens.

Passive smoking in beer gardens harms anyone who is unlucky enough to inhale the second hand smoke.  Please can you point me to some research that shows passive smoking doesn’t harm anyone?

Or perhaps the smokers could smoke far enough away not to impact in the health of non-smokers?

Dangerous sports and smoking donot compare.  There are always health benefits to “dangerous” sports, which may involve medical treatment.  Even if medical assistance is required it may use up some precious NHS resources, but there is no benefit that comes from smoking.

Smoking is one of the few, if only past time that can have such a negative impact on others not willing to participate.

The smokers still want to have their tab in the beer garden, because they can.  Irrelevant if it negatively impacts others.

Passive smoking in beer gardens harms anyone who is unlucky enough to inhale the second hand smoke

You’re outside. The cars driving past pose a far higher risk. Get a grip!

You not liking something isn’t a reason to ban it

You’re outside. The cars driving past pose a far higher risk. Get a grip!

You not liking something isn’t a reason to ban it

Please send me to a link that suggests passive smoking outside doesn’t harm anyone?

Protecting health, reducing the burden on the NHS is a reason to ban it.  Liking something, doesn’t mean it should be allowed if the consequences impact others detrimentally.