Lloyd in Eastbourne- would have made no difference.
Cooper in St Albans- would have made no difference.
Dodds in Radnorshire- would have made no difference.

They only made “no difference” when you know the count after the vote… they were all seats where the Tories stood to gain because of a spilt vote.

But that’s not what’s needed, no matter how much it impressed you in 2019.

I wasn’t “impressed”, I was utterly depressed by the inability of the opposition parties to fight the Tories instead of each other.

Try being in Scotland when we have a defacto labour / tory non aggression pact and where tories and labour work together to freeze out the SNP – despite SNP and labour policy being so close!

Its disgusting.

Very sad watching labour bury their own ambitions because they lack the courage to fight for what they want.

This virtue signaling attempt to appeal to voters with a commitment to wholesome, kitchen-table budgeting is destructive and will undermine any effort to deliver the kinds of programs that would win Labour sustained support. https://t.co/qwnhN1TrLA

— Stephanie Kelton (@StephanieKelton) January 17, 2021

And here we go again.

Most voters do indeed think that balancing the government books is exactly the same as balancing the books at home. So what should we do? I know….. lets tell them they’re wrong. That always goes down well

After all, thats why we haven’t got a labour government now, isn’t it? Because the voters got it wrong? Labour ‘won the argument’ didn’t they? You can quibble about the definition of the word ‘winning’, obviously, but it all went well.

Yet again: lets deal the world we’ve got, rather than the one we’d like it to be

The most successful electoral strategy of the last decade has been the 3 word slogan.

Anyway, the next election is 4 years away. Meanwhile, back in UK Toryland, economic theories aren’t really at the forefront of a lot of peoples minds:

The government’s mishandling of the pandemic gave the U.K. the worst recession of any major economy.

Now it plans to cut Universal Credit, bringing 500,000 more people into poverty.

Tory MPs must do the right thing by voting with Labour to #CancelTheCut

— David Lammy (@DavidLammy) January 18, 2021

So what should we do?

Be honest with them, show leadership, help them to understand why everything is f****. The root problem in the UK is the dishonesty and mendacity of our politicians and the utter cowardice shown by those who are in a position to do something about it. The number one politicial opinion of the vast majority of the population is ‘they’re all the same’. You seem to think that’s something that can’t, or shouldn’t be changed.

economic theories aren’t really at the forefront of a lot of peoples minds

It’s not theory, it’s reality, and UC is perfect example of something which would be easily affordable if only politicians were honest with the public. FGS man read that book!

Which is exactly what starmer is doing today. forcing a commons vote on extending the UC £20 uplift.

Plus he keeps hammering Johnson and co on competence.

this is how its done – make the image of the tories as both cruel and incompetnet and keep on hammering that line until it becomes a part of their public image.

labour cannot get pinned down on specific policies now nor give the tory press any ammo.

this is how its done – make the image of the tories as both cruel and incompetnet and keep on hammering that line until it becomes a part of their public image.

But carry on with the fundamental mistruth that undermines almost everything else? The publc instinctively know they’re being lied to. They may not understand the mechanics but they can clearly see that when it’s required, the govt can always find the money to do whatever it wants, and that reducing UC, or not supporting people through lockdowns are political choices, not economic ones. This is why they have such a low opinion of politicians, and Starmer is doing very little to change that.

The publc instinctively know they’re being lied to.

Thanks for the laugh!

I agree with much of your post, but the idea that the voters have natural bullshit detectors is completely at odds with experience since the 2008 crash.

I was just going to say the same thing TJ.

Today the labour party is doing exactly what the labour party should be doing. It is forcing a vote on reductions in UC.

The Tory’s are being 3 line whipped to abstain on it, because they know already what a bunch of heartless ****s they look like with all the coverage of free school meals. They’ve put out some press release about Labour ‘playing politics’, but I doubt that’s going to wash with many people

The government’s mishandling of the pandemic gave the U.K. the worst recession of any major economy.

Now it plans to cut Universal Credit, bringing 500,000 more people into poverty.

Tory MPs must do the right thing by voting with Labour to #CancelTheCut

— David Lammy (@DavidLammy) January 18, 2021

Lecturing people on economics can probably wait for another day

The publc instinctively know they’re being lied to

Erm…

Stop it Binners, you’re reminding me of an alternative reality where Lammy is preparing to speak from no10. Utterly impossible… but that’s the UK I wish we had… or at least were heading towards.

Today the labour party is doing exactly what the labour party should be doing. It is forcing a vote on reductions in UC.

I agree: much more of this, please.

Note though that the vote is non-binding.

Note though that the vote is non-binding.

Yes… because Labour is in opposition.

Thanks for the laugh!

I’m serious. You think the public don’t know that the money can always be found when it’s needed, but that politicians simply choose not to do it? Do you ever hear people asking where the money comes from for wars, or more topically for covid? They barely batted an eyelid when they handed over the best part of a trillion quid to the banks. Yet when the issue of finding money for public services, benefits etc is raised, the politicians, including labour ones who are supposed to be on the public’s side, repeat the lie that there’s no money to pay for it. The result is that all politicians are seen as dishonest, self-serving and uninterested in changing anything. Starmer will get nowhere until he changes this view, and he’s not going to do that by telling voters there’s not enough money to do what is required, because they know deep down that it’s a lie.

Yes… because Labour is in opposition.

Some types of motion are binding, so you’re not quite right.

Anyway, that wasn’t my point, which is that assuming Labour wins the vote, we should keep an eye on what the Tories do in response.

You think the public don’t know that the money can always be found when it’s needed, but that politicians simply choose not to do it?

The public think that, over a period of time, there are restrictions on creating money. They think that money spent now must be paid by the public at some point. It is an oversimplification that is, in my opinion, as good as a lie. If you don’t… for want of a better word… “pander” to that concept, and bend it rather than totally dismiss it, while in opposition, you’ll stay in opposition. So… talk of “responsible spending”, although economic nonsense, has to be part of your language if you want to be elected.

Anyway, that wasn’t my point, which is that assuming Labour wins the vote, we should keep an eye on what the Tories do in response.

The Tories are being 3-line whipped to abstain. Johnson is going with the line that this is labour ‘playing politics’ as opposed to trying to ensure people have enough money to live on

Johnson is clearly worried that some Tory MPs (most likely the new ‘Red Wall’ lot) will vote with labour, hence the 3 line whip.

Given where we are at the moment, the Tory’s favourite narrative – that those on benefits are all feckless layabouts – is becomign a harder and harder sell. This is now impacting on a much larger part of society as unemployment rockets, and thats before furlough ends and it goes through the roof

which is that assuming Labour wins the vote

They won’t win the vote. It is all about pinning the “heartless tories” tag on North of England MPs ready for future elections.

They won’t win the vote. It is all about pinning the “heartless tories” tag on North of England MPs ready for future elections.

Why won’t they win the vote? As Binners notes, the Tories are being whipped to abstain.

The Tories are being 3-line whipped to abstain

Wise. The government are likely to be pushed into doing something for low pay voters this year, it might be continuing the small UC bump, or they might find another way… but they don’t want the “voted to reduce UC during the pandemic” tag pinned on some key MPs in seats that Labour need to win back.

As Binners notes, the Tories are being whipped to abstain.

I didn’t know that when I wrote my post.

Blimey! Me and Daz agree on something

I can guarantee we agree on almost everything, the only difference is how to get there.

In a largely depressing thread, a good reminder that disagreement is mainly about how not what.

I didn’t know that when I wrote my post.

Binners had already mentioned it further up the page.

Meanwhile in the state that SKS strongly supports, the one you aren’t allowed to criticise or you’re a racist:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/18/middleeast/israelis-palestinians-vaccination-intl/index.html

Johnson is clearly worried that some Tory MPs (most likely the new ‘Red Wall’ lot) will vote with labour, hence the 3 line whip.

I get that – my point was that the Tories may, for example, choose to wait for the media interest to wane and do nothing.

my point was that the Tories may, for example, choose to wait for the media interest to wane and do nothing.

I think that’ll probably be the plan. But this is all mounting up, isn’t it? Marcus Rashford is already on the hi-profile warpath about the next school holidays where we’re likely to see a repeat of the last two:

The government saying free school meals won’t be provided, right up until the point that a 23 year old footballer shames them into a U-turn. Again.

Whats different at the moment, and will be more so shortly, is that people who never imagined themselves on benefits, now are. And a hell of a lot more are about to be. So the Torys usual line about undeserving scroungers just isn’t going to wash any more.

A lot of these new benefit claimants will be natural Tory voters who are about to find out the yawning chasm between a cushy life on benefits as depicted by Tory Central Office and the Daily Mail and the subsistance level of poverty and foodbanks that are the reality

I think that’ll probably be the plan. But this is all mounting up, isn’t it? Marcus Rashford is already on the hi-profile warpath about the next school holidays where we’re likely to see a repeat of the last two:

The government saying free school meals won’t be provided, right up until the point that a 23 year old footballer shames them into a U-turn. Again.

Whats different at the moment, and will be more so shortly, is that people who never imagined themselves on benefits, now are. So the Torys usual line about undeserving scroungers just isn’t going to wash any more

I think that Rashford has, no pun intended, presented Starmer with an open goal.

I think that with the public now paying a bit more attention to this area, Labour has a huge opportunity to show the Tory narrative about benefits for the lie that it is.

Today is a good sign that they intend to do just that

Binners had already mentioned it further up the page.

I don’t read every word Binners types… I tend to look at the pictures more.

So the Torys usual line about undeserving scroungers just isn’t going to wash any more

Let’s hope so.

It’s absolutely where Labour should be pushing… that they would run the country for all… that many of us are one pandemic or shift in global demand away from needing the government to run the benefit system, like the rest of the state, correctly, efficiently, and for the good of us all, not just those already being helped. They shouldn’t be talking about Israel right now, obviously.

Today is a good sign that they intend to do just that

I’ve been bitterly disappointed with Starmer so far, so I really hope that this is a sign of things to come.

I don’t read every word Binners types… I tend to look at the pictures more.

Fine, but it would perhaps be better if you didn’t post with such certainty if you’re not going to do any basic fact-checking.

Father Jack makes a more coherent argument than you.

My case reclines upon the divan.

Looks like theres a good few Tory MP’s planning to ignore the 3 line whip and vote for the labour party motion tonight.

So whats Johnson going to do? In the past that’d be an immediate removal of the whip affair. Thats going to be a great look. Removing the whip from MP’s who vote against forcing another 500,000+ people into poverty

The BBC is also leading its news broadcasts with this today and Starmer was on ITV this morning and said:

If [Zahawi] is going to call it a stunt, he should probably come with me to a food distribution centre to see these families this morning and explain to them what is a lifeline to them is a ‘stunt’, because it certainly isn’t from their point of view.

I actually think in their heart of hearts quite a lot of Tory MPs know that cutting this money to people who desperately need it in the middle of a pandemic is the wrong thing to do, they know that, they probably want to vote with us but because of the tribal way we do politics they can’t.

The prime minister’s now saying in answer to the question ‘do you think this uplift should stay or not’, he’s saying ‘I don’t want to say yes and I don’t want to say no so we’re going to abstain’. He’s got no view on whether it should stay or not – that’s pretty pathetic.

I think in their heart of hearts they [Tory MPs] would actually vote with us today if they had the option to do so.

Labour lost the last 4 elections on the public not trusting them with the economy. This is where they need to change public opinion.

Tories are presenting them with all the ammo they need at the mo. They should go harder after the dodgy deals – no holds barred.

Tories are presenting them with all the ammo they need at the mo. They should go harder after the dodgy deals – no holds barred.

And point out that Tory dithering on restrictions had caused the economic damage of the pandemic to become far worse than it needed to be.

They should go harder after the dodgy deals – no holds barred.

Absolutely. But instead of saying ‘the tories are printing money to give to their millionaire mates, and instead we’ll give it to the NHS’, they’re saying ‘we won’t give money to anyone because we’ll impose abitrary limits on spending because you the public don’t understand economics’. There is an open goal there waiting for Starmer and Dodds to kick the ball into it, but they’re arguing with the referee about the rules and listening to the opposing fans telling them not to do it. Madness!

Have you thought about making a short public information film where you get some cuddly children’s TV characters to explain in words of less than two syllables your new economics model to the electorate?

You could call it something catchy like ‘just read the book you bunch of ****ing thicko’s!’

…making a short public information film where you get some cuddly children’s TV characters to explain…

I’d be well up for doing this for Universal Basic Income. I’ll have a go at some three word slogans as well…

“None go hungry”
“Freedom to learn”
“Everyone made secure”
“Employees not slaves”
“Needs before wants”

Okay.. I’m clearly not the one to do this!

“None go hungry”

What, not even scoungers? No way!

“Freedom to learn”

Students?!!!!?!

“Everyone made secure”

Security breeds complacency! Keep the plebs hungry for it!!!

“Employees not slaves”

Don’t start with your BLM shite now!!!

“Needs before wants”

Everyone needs a new X4 every other year!

Moron!!!