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  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    I don’t think the idea of Labour following the Tories is over-simplified at all.

    The ultimate irony of course is that the tories are going the other way on fiscal policy. They won’t admit it of course because it would destroy their reputation for ‘responsible’ economic management, but they’re spending money quite literally as if it grows on trees, and not just on covid. Boris is a secret MMTer I reckon, but the scandal is that he’s using it to enrich his private backers, rather than improving the lives of the general population. This is a massive open goal for labour, but they can’t take advantage while they’re still hooked on outdated and redundant pre-2008 neoliberal economics. It’s tragic quite frankly, and will result in another election defeat.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Tories always use tax and spend (and borrowing)… they just spend the money in ways that benefit them and theirs. A crisis just allows them to do more of this, in more a transparent way. Hence the manufactured Brexit crisis we walked into with open arms. Tories love a magic money tree, when they have ways of ensuring few leaves get down to ground level.

    Aaaaaanywaaaay… we’re back to “I don’t want any Labour government, just my flavour of one”… which is the split the Tories love and use to their advantage. I was guilty of this up ’till Corbyn became leader (when I started voting Labour), but I won’t be making the same mistake again. I’ll be voting Labour at the next election, and I hope (but doubt) that Starmer can widen the support for Labour enough to become PM. If you think that Starmer would be “as bad” as Johnson, or Sunak… don’t let me get a sniff of what you’re smoking, please.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    If you think that Starmer would be “as bad” as Johnson, or Sunak… don’t let me get a sniff of what you’re smoking, please.

    I had hoped that in response to my question you would have something more substantial than “I’m not Boris”, but it appears not.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    I’ll be voting Labour at the next election, and I hope (but doubt) that Starmer can widen the support for Labour enough to become PM.

    At the next election Johnson will be offering all sorts of spending pledges (which will benefit his friends) and promises not to raise taxes, while labour will be preaching restraint and the need to raise taxes to ‘pay off the debt’. Who do you think people are going to vote for?

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    If you think that Starmer would be “as bad” as Johnson, or Sunak… don’t let me get a sniff of what you’re smoking, please.

    I think we have to look beyond the next election.

    Do you remember when May said that 80% of people cast their votes for parties that supported triggering Article 50?

    The UK has a truly broken electoral system. If it worked as it should then each person would be voting for an MP to represent the interests of their community in Parliament. That MP would put the interests of their constituency above their party’s interests every time. In reality, people are being forced to directly elect a PM using a system that means the vast majority of votes are wasted.

    If you say, ‘I’m voting for Starmer because Johnson is worse’ then you are actively supporting this broken system and contributing to the mess that is getting progressively worse as time goes by.

    Premier Icon 5thElefant
    Free Member

    If you say, ‘I’m voting for Starmer because Johnson is worse’ then you are actively supporting this broken system and contributing to the mess that is getting progressively worse as time goes by.

    What’s getting worse? Any particular metric?

    Thinking back to the 70s and 80s everything seems to be better in any practical metric I can think of. Or how about the 50s if you want an even more stark contrast.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    If you say, ‘I’m voting for Starmer because Johnson is worse’ then you are actively supporting this broken system and contributing to the mess that is getting progressively worse as time goes by.

    I used to think this way. It’s the thinking that, given the voting system we have, returns Conservative government after Conservative government. If you’re in a seat where Labour can beat the Tories, and don’t vote Labour, because you don’t think Starmer would be that much of a better PM for you, and most of us, than Johnson or his successor… then you’re killing better with a dream of perfection… and Conservative rule rolls ever onwards…

    I never voted for New Labour. I would now. Despite being well to the left of them. And, yes, despite the war. Look at the current government. If you don’t want rid of that… well…

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    If you’re in a seat where Labour can beat the Tories, and don’t vote Labour, because you don’t think Starmer would be a better PM for you, and most of us, than Johnson or his successor… then you’re killing better with a dream of perfection.

    Another evidence-free assertion. Again, why is it better?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I am not going to try and argue with anyone who claims they are left wing but would rather keep the current Conservatives in power than let Starmer be PM. Argue with yourself.

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    What’s getting worse? Any particular metric?

    Gini coefficient, wages vs cost of living, job security, freedom of movement, trade barriers, pensions, house prices…

    That’s off the top of my head. There are more, I’m sure.

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    If you’re in a seat where Labour can beat the Tories, and don’t vote Labour, because you don’t think Starmer would be that much of a better PM for you, and most of us, than Johnson or his successor… then you’re killing better with a dream of perfection… and Conservative rule rolls ever onwards…

    Yes but you’re still looking at a single election. The problem is that by voting for Labour you are endorsing their policies, even if you don’t actually support their policies.

    You are enabling PMs to say things like ‘80% of the population backed parties that would trigger Article 50’.

    Do you see my point? By supporting a party whose policies you don’t agree with you are giving cover to the next Tory PM to say, ‘but the majority of the population voted for parties that support….’

    Obviously I would rather have Starmer than Johnson but if the price of that is to endorse polices I do not agree with then it’s too high a price to pay.

    Perfect is the enemy of good but what we’re talking about now is a choice between bad and worse. If you vote for bad things you are endorsing them.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    That was exactly my position. I didn’t vote for New Labour because I disagreed with many of their policies. In hindsight, I should have voted for them… because on nearly every issue their policies were preferable to those of the Conservatives… and the reality of our voting system is that only two parties can be the major party (or only party) in any government. I was lucky enough to vote for Labour while they held policies very close to my own preferences at the last two general elections. Not enough other people did. Those polices are not going to be put in place unchanged. Labour need wider support to be in government… the policy base absolutely will have to shift… trying to move the British public towards them resulted in failure. Obviously, in seats were other parties can beat the Conservatives, that all changes… but that is the nature of our voting system (for Westminster)… you vote against the Conservatives, or with them.

    Premier Icon mrmonkfinger
    Free Member

    You are enabling PMs to say things like ‘80% of the population backed parties that would trigger Article 50’.

    I’m not enabling it personally… The voting system is.

    We need a better one. The current one mires the country with regressive tribalism.

    Anyone I can vote for who offers election reform?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Indeed. For England at least, I see no path to much needed election reform, short, medium or long term… and nor do I think that enough of the public would back it… Conservative voters know it will undo that party… so most will oppose reform… and a big enough minority of Labour voters think the same… sadly.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Anyone I can vote for who offers election reform?

    I think most of the smaller parties do. The Greens certainly do. While they won’t get into power any time soon votes for the alternatives do help swing the decisions of the bigger parties who don’t want to lose votes. Look at UKIP for an example (albeit terrible)

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    The problem I have is that, after Starmer’s u-turn, both major parties are now opposed to freedom of movement.

    I cannot vote for a party that is going to enable whoever becomes PM to say ‘80% of the population voted for parties that oppose freedom of movement.’

    If that results in a Tory PM so be it. My vote is not going to give them cover to pursue more racist policies.

    Premier Icon mrmonkfinger
    Free Member

    I find it slightly disappointing that Labour don’t.

    After all despite their being one of ‘the big two’ their electoral success has not been 50% of the elections, of late.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    If that results in a Tory PM so be it.

    It’s the most likely result… hence, despite feeling exactly the same about that issue as you… I’ll still vote Labour in this seat.

    I think most of the smaller parties do. The Greens certainly do.

    The conundrum is… that, depending on your seat, a vote for a smaller party, to either support electoral reform, or to show support for their other policies, can return yet another Tory MP… allowing them to do their own “reforms” to further cement their advantage in the FPTP system, via changes to boundaries etc.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    I am not going to try and argue with anyone who claims they are left wing but would rather keep the current Conservatives in power than let Starmer be PM. Argue with yourself.

    It’s a pity that you’re unable to answer such a simple and fundamental question. I’m asking in good faith, a courtesy you’re not extending to me.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    You answer it. I’m sure you can.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    You answer it. I’m sure you can.

    You are the one asserting that we should vote Labour on the basis that they are preferable to the Tories. The onus is on you to support your claim.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    Look at what Labour intentions are and what they value. Do the same with Tory party.

    That is all the support of a claim you need.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    The conundrum is… that, depending on your seat, a vote for a smaller party, to either support electoral reform, or to show support for their other policies, can return yet another Tory MP

    Yes it is definitely an issue but we desperately need reform and change. Maintaining the status quo won’t do that. The more votes the big parties lose to alternatives the more there is mandate for change. It needs a critical mass people don’t vote for the small parties because they are unlikely to win, the closer they get to that tipping point the more people are willing to vote for them. It’ll take a few election cycles which makes it a bit unappealing, though.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    Look at what Labour intentions are and what they value.

    I don’t know what Labour’s intentions are for the next GE. Do you?

    Premier Icon exsee
    Free Member

    It’s okay, electoral reform is on the way… Reform UK is the party for you😱

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    The problem I have is that, after Starmer’s u-turn, both major parties are now opposed to freedom of movement.

    that is totally to misrepresent him. He is not against FOM. He can see no way to get it back.

    Again I think its the wrong tactic given how the polls show a majority think Brexit a mistake but I understand his need to not get bogged down in that debate

    Wait until he launches his positive vision – and it is coming.

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    that is totally to misrepresent him. He is not against FOM. He can see no way to get it back.

    I’ve given up listening to what politicians say and look at what they do instead.

    What he has said is that he is for FOM. What he has done is withdrawn Labour’s commitment to returning FOM AND 3 line whipped his MPs to vote for a deal that would remove FOM insisting that the only alternative was No Deal (which was a lie, by the way).

    I wanted to like him but he is a bitter bitter disappointment and I suspect no amount of positive unicorns are going to change my opinion of him.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/keir-starmer-says-he-would-bring-back-eu-freedom-of-movement-if-he-becomes-prime-minister

    How you can describe his position as anything other than a blatant u-turn I don’t know.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Hey, I want FoM to return as much as possible… and more importantly for so many of the (eligible to vote in general elections) people of the UK to stop blaming foreigners for all their ills. I don’t like what Starmer is doing in that regard one bit. Can he get elected without all the standing in front of flags and promising to keep “controls on immigration”… I fear not. English voters aren’t who I’d like them to be. When Miliband understood this… I was one of those refusing to vote for his party because of his acceptance of the insular nature of the English voter… the result of all that refusing to hold our noses and vote Labour was a string of Conservative Home Secretaries trying to send people home, and make them unemployable and homeless. Worse for the country than Labour would have been? Damn right. I won’t be making that mistake again. Vote Labour… or for whoever can stop your seat returning a Tory MP… remember… millions can’t vote in UK wide elections, and are an easy target under Conservative governments.

    EDIT: if you’re in Scotland, I can see why the path out of all this gets more appealing after every vote you see us English take

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    And if I was in Scotland, I wouldn’t vote Labour either.

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    that is totally to misrepresent him. He is not against FOM. He can see no way to get it back.

    The stone cold fact of the matter is that a majority of the UK population wanted to see an end to freedom of movement and were prepared to vote for it with Brexit, then twice more to deliver Tory governments, the last one with a whacking great majority.

    I don’t like that fact any more than you do and being a Guardian reading wishy-wshy liberal I absolutely hate what it says about ‘us’ as a country, but it is what it is…. a reality.

    Again: lets deal with the world as it is, not with how we’d like it to be. We have to accept the uncomfortable truth, or permenent Tory rule. Its as simple as that.

    And saying that you’d rather see a Tory governemnt than a labour one that doesn’t tick all your boxes represents a level of foot-shooting idiocy that I find utterly incomprehensible.

    That sentiment is normally voiced by the same kind of delusional sixth-form level clown who berates Blair and Brown (IRAQ!!!!!) for being ‘Tory-light’ without stopping to think what the country would look like now if we’d have actually had a Tory government for those 13 years.

    My contempt for the utterly useless, voter-repellent Jeremy Corbyn and the absolute tools he surrounded himself with is virtually limitless but I still voted for the stupid, beardy, allotment-dwelling, Marxist twice. He was still the least worst option by a country mile, as the last few years have proved

    Its all just a bit too..

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    Yeah, I have the luxury of it all being fairly academic for me given that I vote in Scotland and it’s always easier to stick to your principles when it’s theoretical.

    I just feel that FoM is a red line for me. I cannot give my vote to a party that opposes it. I can’t risk the ‘80% of the population voted for parties that oppose FoM’ trap.

    Anyway, Starmer opposing FoM feels like the final nail in the coffin for me ever supporting the Union again. I was always open to the idea that if democracy in the UK could be reformed I could get behind remaining in the UK.

    I never really 100% bought into the England and Scotland being culturally different. My preference for independence has always been based on the democratic deficit in the UK. Now I’m wondering if we are just too different to ever be governed by the same government again.

    I hope you guys get your shit together over the next few years but I’d be lying if I saw any sign of it so far. Best of luck to you.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    That sentiment is normally voiced by the same kind of delusional sixth-form level clown who berates Blair and Brown (IRAQ!!!!!) for being ‘Tory-light’

    That was me.

    without stopping to think what the country would look like now if we’d have actually had a Tory government for those 13 years.

    Well, the past decade has shown us.

    I just feel that FoM is a red line for me. I cannot give my vote to a party that opposes it. I can’t risk the ‘80% of the population voted for parties that oppose FoM’ trap.

    And has been for me. But it’s pretty clear where the New Conservatives are taking us, and it has to be stopped. FoM is a next decade issue down here, sadly. The ship needs turning… it’ll be a long time before it’s going in the direction I’d like.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    At the next election Johnson will be offering all sorts of spending pledges (which will benefit his friends) and promises not to raise taxes, while labour will be preaching restraint and the need to raise taxes to ‘pay off the debt’. Who do you think people are going to vote for?

    Yup. Boris is and always was a Keynesian and the Pandemic has allowed/forced him to go into Keynesian hyperdrive. As you say, Keir’s gap will be fiscal responsibility, he’ll advocate that and floating voters are going to think that’s the right thing to do.

    Kier’s a class act and in any other situation he’d be on a roll.

    I see three problems. 1) Policy isn’t everything – Corbyn’s Labour told the Red Wall voters they were elderly idiots. I suspect that will make them very reluctant to vote Labour next time. 2) Both main parties are playing a B team front bench. The difference is with Brexit gone the Tory’s can bring their big hitter remainers back onto the front bench. They can even switch Boris out for Sunak who’s a much more palatable character. I’m really not sure the depleted Labour party have many big hitters to move onto the front bench. 3) I think the Corbyn era will haunt Labour. The Tory’s can make the case that Labour could win and then get taken over again.

    These are nice problems to have though. To go from being utterly unelectable to a credible party with a first class leader in one year is good going and if anyone can get Labour into power Keir can. I thought he’d be brilliant and he’s turned out to be way better than I expected.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    What’s getting worse? Any particular metric?

    Thinking back to the 70s and 80s everything seems to be better in any practical metric I can think of. Or how about the 50s if you want an even more stark contrast.

    Its esy to say that when you are rich as i assume you are

    Lets see now. These are all things that are measurably worse
    Homelessness
    Poverty both relative and absolute
    Housing – rentals are an ever increasing share of income, buying houses is harder and harder, rentals are much less secure
    ever increasing inequality
    workers rights especially job security
    Drug usage especially heroin addiction
    Health inequalities
    Access to healthcare
    Old age care
    Fuel poverty
    Benefit levels

    Just a few off the top of my head. Successive tory governments have hugely damaged the life prospects of the poorest

    Premier Icon El-bent
    Free Member

    The stone cold fact of the matter is that a majority of the UK population wanted to see an end to freedom of movement and were prepared to vote for it with Brexit, then twice more to deliver Tory governments, the last one with a whacking great majority.

    Going to pull you up on that one, A small majority in the referendum, and no actual majorities in the last two elections, 2019 they got an 80 seat majority on 43% of the vote. As what’s being discussed here is the key to the problem, FPTP. The tories are not going to give up their advantage, and will create more seats to give them a majority on less % of the vote.

    I’m just disappointed at the tolerance people in this country show for accepting a Government voted for by the minority.

    My contempt for the utterly useless, voter-repellent Jeremy Corbyn and the absolute tools he surrounded himself with is virtually limitless but I still voted for the stupid, beardy, allotment-dwelling, Marxist twice

    Please, change the record will you.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    to say Starmer is against FOM is simply wrong. there is a huge differnce between what he thinks is possible and what he may want personally

    The Labour leader said his party had to be honest with the public, and that if it won the next general election a major renegotiation of the Brexit treaty would not be possible.

    “Whether we like it or not, that is going to be the treaty that an incoming Labour government inherits and has to make work. And it is not being straight with the British public to say we can come into office in 2024 and operate some other treaty,” he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/keir-starmer-accepts-end-of-eu-free-movement-in-brexit-reversal

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    I still voted for the stupid, beardy, allotment-dwelling, Marxist twice

    I didn’t know you lived in Islington Binners – that explains a lot

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    And it is not being straight with the British public to say we can come into office in 2024 and operate some other treaty

    Such careful use of words. I know why he’s doing it… but it’s not very “honest” even if it is “true”… there will not be another treaty… because the existing one allows… no… requires reappraisal and renegotiation at that point. Labour could propose including FoM, and it’s highly likely the EU would welcome that… but you can see why Labour don’t want to be drawn into an election with FoM being part of the discussion. It’s politically astute yet highly disingenuous to pretend it simply isn’t up for discussion with the EU.

    Premier Icon FB-ATB
    Full Member

    without stopping to think what the country would look like now if we’d have actually had a Tory government for those 13 years.

    Well, the past decade has shown us.

    Didn’t need to wait. The 80s will clearly show what the Tories will happily to do a country.

    Premier Icon BruceWee
    Free Member

    It’s politically astute yet highly disingenuous to pretend it simply isn’t up for discussion with the EU.

    Exactly. It’s entirely possible to reintroduce FoM. He’s not stupid. He didn’t go around for a year thinking that it was possible to re-introduce FoM only to suddenly realise it was impossible after all.

    Binners has nailed it, unfortunately. England is simply not going to vote for a government that is introducing FoM.

    He might support FoM personally but politically he opposes it. You cannot argue otherwise because he has come out and said it is Labour policy.

    I understand why he is doing it but there has to come a point where your compromises in the name of being electable go too far and for me he has crossed that line.

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