Sir! Keir! Starmer!

So which political party do you like?

New page dag nab it. That was to Dazh. I guess if you don’t like anything Labour’s done in government then it might seem better they be in permanent opposition, if it wasn’t for the fact that means we’re run by the Tories.

Anyway. Work beckons, or entropy…

Starmer isn’t Blair, or even Brown.

Well that’s what we’re all curious about. We don’t know yet, and coming back to Binners point which started this whole tangent on Blair, that’s why many on the left are concerned. As someone whose name I’ve forgotten said after the last election, Labour have to do a lot more than just being nice to poor people.

So which political party do you like?

‘Like’ is the wrong word. I’d always vote anti-tory however that is best served, but I’m not nearly as tribal as many here probably think. Labour has proven many times that as an organisation it leaves a lot to be desired, like most political parties. If I had my way I think I’d abolish all of them.

I follow RLB on Facebook (I was impressed by her appearances during the leadership campaign) and she has recently posted her opinion piece in the Guardian (a standard politician’s non-apology, in my opinion) and her followers are flooding the comments with “you did nothing wrong, never apologise to these people” messages of ‘support’.

And, “Starmer is Israel’s poodle”, apparently.

I suspect in the not-too-distant future the pressure for change won’t come from wrangling within or between parliamentary parties, an election is years away, but come from the streets and workplaces. The embroiling, accusing, suppressing and stitching up of the LP, from whichever angle, won’t matter a great deal because they didn’t see on the streets and in the workplaces as part of their organisational focus.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-labour-partys-antisemitism-sacking-meant-protect-israel-not-jews-starmer?fbclid=IwAR1YAPhvPrmuYGs0kOpEZNay-doK2OXjY93Cph-qTNCbXL7J0l0JmicF4kA

That article… No mention that the original comment was about trying to link the central complaint of the BLM movement to Israel. Leavimg out that “small detail” when discussing this means you should not be trusted.

Repeat after me “I don’t blame Israel for racist police killings in the USA, and I expect my politicians not to spread such conspiracy theories”… go on, give it a go. RLB needs to do more, fast, the people rallying to her support need to hear from her clearly and directly that this nonsense needs to stop.

So you’re saying its not anti-semitic then Kelvin? More an anti Israel conspiracy theory?

I think it is antisemitic, I have been clear. Blaming violent crimes and subjugation of non whites on Jews is as old as you like. If you think you can update that by replacing “Jews” with “Israel” to keep the lies and hate flowing, then you are part of the problem… repeat after me “the racist killings by police forces in the USA are not down to Israel, and our politicians have a responsibility to try and snuff out such conspiracy theories”. RLB needs to speak clearly on this, or it looks like she wants her “she did nothing wrong” supporters to carry on spreading this nonsense, and laying the blame at Israel’s door for the killings at the centre of the BLM campaigners’ concerns.

A trope is all about ‘you said this, but you really meant that, you’re an ad hominem (fill in accordingly)’ and ‘you’re guilty of what I’ve just invented, repeat this apology after me’.
You really do need a bit of an eye for detail in all of this.

I still don’t think that Peake or BLM are antisemitic, and don’t think either meant any malice towards Jews. We all have a responsibility to stop these conspiracy theories though, and the responses by many of those who support RLB shows exactly why she has a greater responsibility to do so than others, and should have acted quicker to do so… and STILL hasn’t done nearly enough to do so.

Repeat after me Bill… “the racist killings by police forces in the USA are not linked to Israel”… stop defending the spreading of this lie.

That article…

Middle East Eye are an, erm, interesting source…

I love how Kelvin and DannyH are trying to get people to say stuff on this thread :-0

Repeat after me…
SAY HIS NAME!

If Israel are training US police forces in physical confrontation is it still a conspiracy theory?

I would have sacked her for stupidity – leave it alone FFS! & more broadly it does NOTHING for Palestine nor BLM.

Twitter for me is unfollow, unfollow, unfollow…

is it still a conspiracy theory?

“the racist killings by police forces in the USA are not linked to Israel”

Try it. Anything else is propogating the lie, whether you see it as antisemitic or not. And why would you want to do that? Why is RLB not clearly telling her supporters not to propagate the lie? That’s what concerns me most right now, because social media is currently a wash with antisemitic bile from people claiming to be standing up for her.

A reminder of the comment…

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

By refusing to act quickly to counter this (unlike Peake herself) RLB gave time for supporters to latch onto it and defend it. When firing her, Starmer could not just say she acted “stupidly”, he had to say exactly why the refusal for her to act quickly and clearly to stop her actions looking like support for the conspiracy meant she couldn’t keep a front bench role. What choice did he have?

and her followers are flooding the comments with

FFS. You’re beginning to sound like binners. Please give up on your obsession with trying to paint anyone who mentions the word israel in a negative light as anti-semitic. Someone said something horrible on twitter, and they appear to be a labour supporter, that must mean all labour supporters are racists! It’s quite pathetic.

If you want to engage seriously with this, then maybe consider my point up the thread, that all this overly pious and forensic witch-hunting is politically motivated and will result in the very thing you claim to be against. How strange that people you falsely accuse of being racists might be a little pissed off and will come back at you in a less than polite manner. Especially if those people have spent a lifetime fighting the very thing you accuse them of.

Please give up on your obsession with trying to paint anyone who mentions the word israel in a negative light as anti-semitic.

I…

Never said that.

Never did that.

Do not think that.

Do not support that.

Do not condone that.

Take that comment back.

RLB wasn’t really sacked for being antisemitic, she was sacked for being politically clueless. In that respect, she really was the ‘continuity Corbyn’ candidate.

Anyway, she seems happy enough with her new martyr role, and everyone in the lefty bunker has had it fuel their particular paranoid, persecution complex, which they get to vocalise on Twitter in their little echo chamber, so that’s them sorted.

In the meantime, getting back on topic to the stuff that actually matters (ie: NOT Rebecca Long Bailey)…

It looks like Joris is about to do something very un-Tory and announce what amounts to a very labor-esque programme of Keynesian economic stimulus. Its going to be interesting to see how far he actually goes. Yes, he’s been forced into it but it’s going to be crucial how Labour reacts to him stealing their clothes.

Obviously, under the old regime, they would have just shouted that they’d spend 5 times more, but Starmer needs to be shrewder than that.

Joris is already calling this the ‘New Deal’. I wonder who came up with that slogan?

Someone said something horrible on twitter, and they appear to be a labour supporter, that must mean all labour supporters are racists!

I never said this at all. I never said that those offering support for RLB, while keeping alive the original lie/mistake, were even all Labour supporters. I did not say that those doing so were racist. I most definitely do not think that all, or even a significant proportion of, Labour supportors agree with them. I would most definitely not say that “all” or “most” or even “many” Labour supporters are racist.

Any other words you want to put in my mouth?

It looks like Joris is about to do something very un-Tory and announce what amounts to a very labor-esque programme of Keynesian economic stimulus.

Johnson will keep announcing capital spending plans for the next five years. It’s what he does. It’s what he always does. Money will be syphoned off by cronies to prepare for the mass building projects, but very little will ever get built. How many bridges will the voters buy, before they realise they can’t use any of them?

Never said that.

You’ve been banging on about tropes non-stop for the last few days and are now using comments on twitter as evidence that labour supporters are anti-semitic.

Do not condone that.

Then stop doing it.

Take that comment back.

Why? Are people you accuse of racism not allowed to defend themselves? You may not think you’re accusing people of racism, but for good reason it’s quite a sensitive subject.

I have been very specific about why the lie/mistake linking the racist police killings in the USA to Israel is so insidious. Address that. And stop slandering me.

now using comments on twitter as evidence that labour supporters are anti-semitic.

It was on RLB’s Facebook post, not twitter. Many of those offering support of the “you did nothing wrong, do not apologise” type specifically say they are not “Labour supporters” as it happens. I offer no “evidence” that Labour supporters are anti-semitic, and do not think that they are.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/29/responsibility-actions-antisemitism-rebecca-long-bailey
…and whilst moving past RLB, her dog ate my homework account of what happened reminds me of some of my more grovelling work emails along the lines “I wanted to tweak the original tweet, leader’s office wanted me to take it down, I suggested an alternative formulation, in the meantime Keir made up his mind…” Can you blame him?

I agree its a conspiracy theory if Israeli forces have not been training US forces in physical confrontation skills.

Even if training did happen its still a stupid as **** theory considering US police were killing black folk (even more often?) before any such training could possibly have started.

Nigel Farage has given his endorsement to Starmer for denouncing BLMUK and referring it to a “moment”. Keir puts on empty performances over action, he’ll take the knee but he’ll not call out racism. He’s clearly being divisive within the party and it’s supporters to win the popular vote, he’s the thinking man’s Boris.

I agree its a conspiracy theory if Israeli forces have not been training US forces in physical confrontation skills.

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

IS NOT TRUE. Don’t fall for the sidestepping to other training. No one is claiming that no USA cops have been training with, and been learning from, the Israeli forces. That is different to linking the central complaints of the BLM movement to Israeli.

Keir puts on empty performances over action, he’ll take the knee but he’ll not call out racism. He’s clearly being divisive within the party and it’s supporters to win the popular vote, he’s the thinking man’s Boris.

Say what now?

RLB wasn’t really sacked for being antisemitic, she was sacked for being politically clueless.

Very much this. With a side order of not doing the sensible thing when told to by the boss. Is there really much else to this matter?

Labour need – for now – to follow a simple rule about anything remotely anti-semitic/Jews/Israel/whatever, which is leave-it-the-hell-alone. Only a putz would fail to see that. RLB is (was?) that putz.

This is what keir said:
“ There’s a broader issue here, the Black Lives Matter movement, or moment if you like, internationally is about reflecting on what happened dreadfully in America just a few weeks ago and acknowledging that as a moment across the world.

It’s a shame it’s getting tangled up with these organisational issues. I wouldn’t have any truck with what the organisation is saying about defunding the police or anything else, that’s just nonsense. “

In response to the defund the police requests from BLM UK.

In response to the defund the police requests from BLM UK.

Do you think UK police need more or less funding? I think more. I also think that money should go nowhere near increased use of military and other deadly hardware.

@faerie

he’ll not call out racism.

What hasn’t he called out?

More funding obviously.
Edit: uk police are already very good at avoiding deadly force.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna737551

I think you’re misunderstanding the call to defund the police so here’s an example.
The Ministry of Justice has announced plans to build four new prisons to cope with overcrowding as our prison population grows. The prison system is subcontracted to private contractors to provide staff and services, making a healthy profit in the process. We’re criminalising a huge percentage of young people, and disproportionately PoWER (BAME, POC). By defunding the police that money could be redirected towards mental health, education, housing and offsetting poverty.
It’s been shown to work in the Netherlands, they’re actually closing prisons.
I had high hopes for Keir, his credentials are good but his virtue is transparent

More funding obviously.

Not that obviously to me, obviously. I think it’s possible to be anti-racist and not want to see funding cut for police (which would disproportionately negatively impact the poorest and most vulnerable). So the issue is with Starmer saying:

“Nobody should be saying anything about defunding the police. I was director of public prosecutions for five years. I’ve worked with police forces across England and Wales bringing thousands of people to court, so my support for the police is very strong.

It’s a shame it’s getting tangled up with these organisational issues, with the organisation Black Lives Matter, but I wouldn’t have any truck with what the organisation is saying about defunding the police – that’s just nonsense.

“There’s a broader issue here. The Black Lives Matter movement – or moment, if you like – internationally is about reflecting something completely different. It’s reflecting on what happened dreadfully in America just a few weeks ago and showing or acknowledging that as a moment across the world.”

Looking at some of the twitter response it seems that it’s that he was a ‘cop in a suit’ that’s the issue for some folks.

On movement versus moment – they’re not mutually exclusive. There is a moment – I dunno, a guy at my work in a meeting last week talking matter of factly and movingly about having to explain to hie 8yr old daughter how some folks wouldn’t like her because of her colour. Lots of that sort of thing. There is a moment that shouldn’t be lost. Doesn’t negate there being a BLM movement. Or that we should reduce funding for the police.

I think you’re misunderstanding the call to defund the police so here’s an example.
The Ministry of Justice has announced plans to build four new prisons to cope with overcrowding as our prison population grows.

I’d prefer a more equitable and evidence based approach to criminal justice, as in the Netherlands, and we’d be more likely to see this under Labour I think (though party politics get fiddly here with the 1991 Criminal Justice Act under the Major govt being the most liberal I can think of and Waddington as Home Sec saying before this time “prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse”. Unfortunately since then cjs policy reversed under Tory and Lab govts. Worse under the former though. Whatever…) This isn’t the same as Stermer not calling out racism.

I’m not misunderstanding it, nor is anyone, it means less money for cops and more for social programs, in the hopes it will eventually reduce crime. Uk police is already stretched to thin. The movement to defund UK police is nonsensical.

Cops per 100k in Netherlands: 295, UK: 211.(wikipedia). It seems that both the police force AND social programs need expanding.

It was on RLB’s Facebook post, not twitter.

Sorry, my mistake. Makes absolutely no difference though. The point I’m trying to make is that if you obsessively deconstruct every statement by labour politicians or supporters with the intention of finding anti-semitism, you’re probably going to find it, especially when the distinction between anti-semitism and anti-Israel has effectively been removed in the popular mindset.

It needs to stop, because the end result is that labour people will just give up trying to defend themselves and go on the attack and that won’t end well. They’ve had enough of being labelled racists when they are in fact the very opposite, especially from their own side. I know I have.

you obsessively deconstruct every statement by labour politicians or supporters with the intention of finding anti-semitism

I do not.

I have been very specific about a mistake made, and the importance of correcting it fully and unambiguously.

the end result is that labour people will just give up trying to defend themselves and go on the attack

Most of those commenting on that Facebook post who are doubling down on the lie/mistake in the absence of a proper unambiguous statement from RLB say they are not staying or were never with Labour… they are not necessarily “Labour people”.

@faerie MoJ aren’t the police, they are what come after someone has been arrested (unless devolved).

I agree that prison isn’t the answer but that has nothing to do with the police or their funding, as pointed out front line community policing needs more funding, not less. And yes, social intervention needs more funding too.

they are not necessarily “Labour people”.

Who are they then?

True, but they are the main beneficiaries. The police appear overstretched because they are having to respond to incidents and issues related to mental health crisises, drug and alcohol problems, rough sleeping and domestic violence. These are areas which have been defunded during austerity putting greater pressure on the police, whilst criminalising behaviours associated with poverty. Increasing police funding is not going to impact the problems, it won’t make the streets safer, it just means that the system can incarcerate more people so that we don’t see them.
Keir seems to be applying his human rights experience to negotiate the minimum disruption for billionaires and business, rather than supporting people.

they are not necessarily “Labour people”.

Who are they then?

‘Like’ is the wrong word. I’d always vote anti-tory however that is best served, but I’m not nearly as tribal as many here probably think. Labour has proven many times that as an organisation it leaves a lot to be desired, like most political parties. If I had my way I think I’d abolish all of them.

Who are they? Some are those who vocally support RLB, but say they never vote or support Labour. And there are those that say they won’t vote or support Labour now that Corbyn no longer leads it. And people who reluctantly vote Labour, and wouldn’t call themselves “Labour people”. All valid positions. I in no way claim that they or their views are shared by Labour supporters in any general way. I also do not claim they are antisemtic, but their keenness to repeat the claim that Israel is linked to the racist killings in USA needs to me countered by RLB with a strong and clear statement that it is not the case, and an apology for sharing an interview that claimed that it was. She has a strong following beyond the Labour movement, and can usefully contribute to rebutting this conspiracy theory… and after sharing that interview has a responsibility to do so.