Sir! Keir! Starmer!

I think there are lots of us who aren’t remotely convinced it was actually anti-semitic

But given her party’s recent mauling over the issue, how naïve/dumb not to think that any mention of Israel will get attraction. If she hasn’t had the time to read all the article (and just liked the bits Maxine Peake was praising Labour), don’t re-tweet.

Emily Thornberry got into trouble tweeting a picture of a white van outside a house showing the Cross of St George. As per the poster above, if they haven’t learnt to be more media savvy, step away from twitter etc.

You are not going to change the forelock tuggers

Unfortunately that completely misses the motivation of the idiots waving the flag and voting for Brexit. They are no more for the establishment or subservient to it than anyone else. It’s tribalism and a false sense of their own (and Britain’s) importance. You need to understand the motivation, the last thing these people see themselves as is subservient, bullish proud springs to mind (highly misplaced of course). It was not understanding that caused Corbyn to lose so many voters, there’s as many nasty small minded people vote Labour as there are conservative. Boris really dialed up the appeal to these idiots through populist nonsense and encouraging the tribalism. Corbyn did nothing to counter this apart for from engaging in tedious internal Labour politics from his allotment.

All that matters is he did the right thing and did it quickly. The longer you leave things, or worse still do nothing, the worse it will build up.
The tories have a lot on their side meaning they can get away with it but Labour don’t have that privilege. This shows exactly why Corbyn was completely the wrong leader and Starmer is the right leader. Policies are irrelevant if the leader is losing it before anyone sees the policies…

Then you are part of the problem.

It is easy to argue that there was no anti-Semitic intention behind the original comment, or the sharing of it… and I would… but we need to do far better than that if the insidious anti-semitism that continues to spread amongst us, irrelevant of left or right leanings, is to be stopped.

You see I just don’t agree with this approach. So what you appear to be saying is in order to stop anti semitism we need to come down hard on people who aren’t actually being anti semitic…..

You need to understand the motivation, the last thing these people see themselves as is subservient, bullish proud springs to mind (highly misplaced of course).

I never voted Labour under Blair, but did under Corbyn… by that is one thing Blair’s team got right… (even if I disliked it at the time)… all that flag waving (Cool Britannia) and dropping the red flag for the red rose… was effective, even if highly cynical, signalling.

So what you appear to be saying is in order to stop anti semitism we need to come down hard on people who aren’t actually being anti semitic…

What I am saying is that even if someone doesn’t have an anti-Semitic bone in their body, if they share conspiracy theories that are anti-Semitic in nature, by mistake, they should do all they can to correct that wrong. And I think Peake has. I think the Independent has. I think Amnesty has. RLB should have apologised, fully, and at speed. I do not think she is anti-Semitic… I do think that she has a responsibility not to feed these conspiracy theories, and should be actively trying to shut them down. We all should.

The great thing about all the die-hard Corbynites moaning about Starmer and his ‘Right Wing’ / Populist agenda is it doesn’t matter, they’re too politically active to stay away from the voting booth and nowhere else for them to go. Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box. The Centrist voters (like me) will find Starmer far more palatable then Johnson and with Brexit over (it’ll never be over, but over enough) Red Leavers will return to the fold. It worked for Blair, it’ll work for Starmer.

the Socialists will still moan even more when they start to improve things like public services because it proves it can be done without tearing down capitalism, because they hate a ‘Red Tory’ more than a blue one.

Then you are part of the problem.

Oh give over. The anti-semitism issue is a political row, nothing else. None of us here are more or less anti-semitic than we were before. The only thing different is that the political tides have changed so that anti-semitism has now been successfully equated to anti-israel (the govt, not the people), and as such any debate or commentary on the rights and wrongs of what the Israeli govt do has been completely shut down for fear of being labelled a racist, and your comment above does exactly that.

Kelvin you’ve always seemed to me a level headed chap who thinks about things and supports basic freedom of expression. The anti-semitism issue has now become a McCarthyite campaign to eliminate and censor any criticism of Israel, and I’m surprised you’ve jumped on that bandwagon. I don’t know where this will end, but it needs to stop, because there are bigger things at stake, like the freedom to express an opinion and have honest debate free from intimidation and fear of being labelled as racists or whatever else.

I don’t know, perhaps people should stop constantly looking to undermine the duly elected leader of the Labour Party…

Just get behind him people!

🙂

rESpeCt tHe ManDaTE!

😀

Good on him. Gets my vote. Looking at the MP’s who are now protesting only serves to show he did the right thing.

Interesting response:

The sacking of Rebecca Long-Bailey – some reactions

Good grief, I completely agree with dazh.

It always was political, just showed how useless Corbyn was as a leader, unable to deal with such an overtly political attack.

I too am getting a little worried about the phrase ‘Then you’re part of the problem’ trotted out to anyone who is deemed to not be on message, or who’s views are considered unworthy because their racial heritage doesn’t fit.

I completely agree with dazh.

2

Do we prefer Keir Starmtrooper or The Starminator?

There’s a world of difference between genuine criticism of the conduct of the Israeli state and a load of old tinfoil-helmeted nonsense.

What was being expressed fell very firmly into the latter category

Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box.

Funny, cos for decades Labour took that view of its red wall: that the votes could be weighed rather than counted.

All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.

Look at the present polling for Starmer and compare and contrast with last Decembers disastrous election results

I too am getting a little worried about the phrase ‘Then you’re part of the problem’ trotted out to anyone who is deemed to not be on message, or who’s views are considered unworthy because their racial heritage doesn’t fit.

You don’t have to be “on message”… just don’t spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theory nonsense. It spreads far too well without help from people who aren’t anti-Semitic. It isn’t just the racist people that spread, or condone the spreading of, racist nutjob nonsense, we are all liable to do so unless we are very careful, and are prepared to correct ourselves when we slip up.

All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.

Grown-ups realise that it’s a bit more complicated than that.

Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box. The Centrist voters (like me) will find Starmer far more palatable then Johnson and with Brexit over (it’ll never be over, but over enough) Red Leavers will return to the fold. It worked for Blair, it’ll work for Starmer.

Can’t see the next election being a contest between those two.
Johnson is tarred with thousands of deaths on his hands from the shambles of a response to CV.
The conservatives are too smart to put him up again, there’ll be a New Leader and a Fresh Start. He’ll be happy to stand side for an easier life too, ambition fulfilled, from a job that needs more work than he actually likes doing.
And starmer has a long way to go before he leads labour into an election. He’s been very supportive of this governments CV response and his lack of opposition could well come back to bite him when the deaths and inquiries get totaled up, and Johnson’s gone.
That’s if his own party haven’t had another domestic before and shoot themselves in the foot.

And starmer has a long way to go before he leads labour into an election.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say now that he’ll have about the same impact as Ed Miliband.

I completely agree with dazh.

yes +1

You don’t have to be “on message”

Are you joking? At the start of the anti-semitism hysteria you had to be a dedicated anti-zionist to be called an anti-semite, then we progressed through various esoteric arguments about what constitutes anti-semitism involving sub-clauses and edge cases, to now being labelled an anti-semite for sharing a tweet which indirectly and inaccurately claims that the Israeli army might once have trained US cops.

Where does it end? Probably with more real anti-semitism, because outside of the transparently political motivations most people are utterly sick of being smeared as racists for doing or saying absolutely nothing, and might actually start forming a negative opinion of the people who are doing the accusing.

So… after the paper, the charity, and the actor… all helpfully issue clarifications… some of you still see nothing wrong with the original article? There is no hope for you.

Again, you can mistakenly help spread these anti-Semitic tropes without having anti-Semitic intentions, and without being anti-Semitic. We all can. If we mistakenly do so, we should correct and apologise, and do what we can to stop them spreading further.

to now being labelled an anti-semite for sharing a tweet which indirectly and inaccurately claims that the Israeli army might once have trained US cops.

Why do you think Israel was singled out for “training the US police forces in Kneeling techniques”, and not any other SF/army organisation from any other country that might have actually provided some training?

Bojo would be very jealous of that move.

He would. And he’s the one Starmer is trying to beat.

I just don’t get the angst. Labour were made unelectable (genuinely or cosmetically – it doesn’t matter) by people like RLB. Labour either want to win elections or they don’t. Getting rid of oafs like Long-Bailey makes this more likely.

Sure there are a few Man City fans who bemoan their transformation from 3rd Division drudgery to Premier League champions as a betrayal of some kind of quaint ethos. But there are a lot more Man City fans in total now.

Election wins or ideological purity in the Common Room…..?

Why do you think Israel was singled out for “training the US police forces in Kneeling techniques”, and not any other SF/army organisation from any other country that might have actually provided some training?

As I’ve said before, there’s no evidence I’ve seen to support the specific allegation of kneeling techniques, and it’s quite possible that the allegation is being spread because of anti-semitism. On the other hand, it’s a matter of record that US police departments have received training from Israeli forces, organisations with a well-documented history of human rights abuses.

“I want to talk about the racism in the USA that is resulting in deaths, with little or no justice forthcoming” – “I’d like to start by talking about Israel.”

Whatever the intentions, the clarification and apologies are welcome… but… mostly thanks to RLB… social media is now awash with people doubling down on that conspiracy theory nonsense. The damage is done. Another drip towards the acceptance of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories as fact.

organisations with a well-documented history of human rights abuses

TBH given what I’ve read of the history of policing in the States, they don’t need lessons from anyone in human rights abuse.

All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.

I don’t think that was just down to Corbynism.. A large number of Labour voters switched because they want brexit, and whilst Labour didn’t take a unified position, they voted tory as they are undoubtedly pro brexit.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say now that he’ll have about the same impact as Ed Miliband.

I disagree.. He’s demolishing Johnson at PMQs and he’s not messing about cutting dead wood out of the shadow cabinet.

I think we need to take into consideration the many advantages Labour has enjoyed since Grandad and the millionaire Marxists were dispatched to the allotment…

Since Starmer took over we’ve not heard a peep out of Tory-Christmas-Present, Ivy Club Revolutionary and all round gobshite Len ****ing McClusky.

You can’t put a price on that, and the blessed relief of his silence is probably worth 10 points in the polls, alone 😂

She’s only been sacked from the shadow cabinet, not expelled from the party. She might even be ‘rehabilitated’ as she does at least have a bit of media recognisability (if that’s a word). But yeah there was the sniff of dog whistle about the Israel ref, pretty naive, very convenient for starmer.

And here’s the real kicker. You can become electable and keep most of your ideological purity.

The technique is to lie in your manifesto. The Tories figured this out a long time ago.

I think we need to take into consideration the many advantages Labour has enjoyed since Grandad and the millionaire Marxists were dispatched to the allotment…

You Starmer supporters are just like brexiteers. You won, get over it!

Only the Tories have won anything.

Only the Tories have won anything.

I agree that Labour has moved, but red Tories seems harsh.

I agree that Labour has moved, but red Tories seems harsh.

It is harsh. I would like the ‘Fresh Labour’ (can’t use the word ‘new’) slogan to be something along the lines of ‘Politics: you don’t have to be a ****’.

To be honest, anything vaguely centrist and not totally **** barmy would do me right now.

We have a joke government run by a clown and half the population seem to think that is fine because “it’s a laugh, innit? Y’know, tongue in cheek, like. That’s wot uz Brits are like, innit….”

To be honest, anything vaguely centrist and not totally **** barmy would do me right now.

Fun fact: in the 1951 general election, the Tories promised to build more council houses than Labour. Which they did.

Why do you think Israel was singled out

Maybe because the IDF have a proven track record of brutality and racially motivated aggression? Probably also something to do with the miltary relationship between Israel and the US government. <span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>I certainly don’t believe it’s because Maxine Peake or RLB are screaming anti-semites.</span><span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”> I’m not claiming Peake and RLB don’t despise the Israeli state, they probably do, along with many other people who oppose their treatment of the Palestinians. That’s entirely consistent with their politics, but it’s not anti-semitic.</span>

“I’d like to start by talking about Israel.”

I don’t read it like that at all. I read it as ‘US cops were trained by a military force with a reputation for racially motivated violence which might have influenced their treatment of black people’.

‘US cops were trained by a military force with a reputation for racially motivated violence which might have influenced their treatment of black people’.

The racism shown by police forces in the USA is not down to Israel. It is down to the people of the USA. There is an historic international context though… and that leads straight to us here in the UK. Try after me…

“The racist violence shown by police in the USA is not down to Israel in any way.”

Go on, try it, rather than keeping the conspiracy theory bullshit alive.