Well, I hope we can at least all agree it’s a good thing that Mad Nad’s now been replaced at DCMS.

Obscurity hopefully beckons.

Chromosomes don’t map to gender so we can just ignore Gender/Sex and divide competitive sport by chromosome. “XX and ‘other’.

Deals with the fairness issue and we don’t have to even think about who’s a woman/man.

@Mark

No one is asking women to accept men into their spaces though, or vice versa.

It is exactly what follows from your claim that transwomen are women.

Women are adult human females.

Females are individuals who do or did or will or would, but for genetic or developmental abnormalities, produce eggs.

Men are adult human males.

Males are individuals who do or did or will or would, but for genetic or developmental abnormalities, produce sperm.

Transwomen are men who identify as women.

To allow transwomen into womens spaces is to allow men into womens spaces.

Any definition of women which includes transwomen will be so broad as to be meaningless.

To claim transwomen are women erases women.

That’s a very basic and blinkered definition of sexuality and gender.

There are two genders, those who like shopping for soft furnishings, and those who don’t.

/thread

That’s a very basic and blinkered definition of sexuality and gender.

Do you believe there are more than two human sexes?

How would you define women so as to include transwomen?

No one is asking women to accept men into their spaces though, or vice versa.

Posted 6 days ago

That one is simply not so. At the most radical end of trans inclusion self identification is all thats needed so a man can identify as female without any other action and automatically then have access to women only spaces. This is of great concern to many lefty feminist women i know.

I find the whole issue incredibly difficult and as far as i can see all sutions have huge issues and unfairness.

Grass roots sport i seeno issues really with inclusion until you look at contact sports like rugby

Elite sport is a whole other issue

The only position i have been able to come to is woman only safe spaces need protection and apart from that i dont understand enough to have a strong position

The only position i have been able to come to is woman only safe spaces need protection

That’s an uncontroversial statement. I can’t see any reason to disagree with it.

Now define ‘women’ – what’s your position on that? This is where the lid comes off the can.

**

IDK the answer and I have a chip in the game so not exactly unbiased thinking, but the same as my position on sport* my vote is a presumption of inclusion. I do npt belive that (the VAST majority of) TG people do not choose to go down that path simply to win medals or to see ladies bums in changing rooms.  It is a lonely, tortuous decision driven by way more than that. BUT, if there are folks that do, to take advantage then act on that, not against a whole community because of one bad apple.

Which is also a difficult one. We have to be brave enough, including the TG community to call out false-trans (I made that term up) if it does occur – I’m aware i could put on a dress, call myself Shirley and demand to be allowed into safe spaces for the purpose of being a pest and then call foul if stopped, which isn’t right.

* inclusion unless it’s shown there is an advantage – and let’s not do that all over again; I think we decided it’s way more complex than first sight.

This is of great concern to many lefty feminist women i know.

Is it though?
Or is it just manufactured ‘concern’ based on some edge cases to try and make it seem like trans women’s rights can only come at the expense of women’s rights?

And like I said last week, why does a discussion on Trans women’s participation in sport keep getting steered back to the “safe spaces” argument?

It’s just a way for people who, for whatever reason, want to discriminate against or exclude Trans people to gaslight everyone into treating acceptance of trans people’s right to exist as a false dichotomy set against women’s rights…

Elite sport is a whole other issue

Indeed, but it was the actual topic of this thread so why do we keep getting:

The only position i have been able to come to is woman only safe spaces need protection and apart from that i dont understand enough to have a strong position

Over and over…

Point taken that safe spaces is not a core part of this debate on here. Its not a false manufactured concern. Its real and not just around edge cases. These are women who have been fighting for inclusion and fairness for women for decades

I can give one example . The local swimming pool has women only sessions to encourage participation. This has been particularly important to muslim women. If self identification is all thats needed then this is no longer a safe space for these women as these self identified trans women have mens bodies voices and genitlia and the result would be exclusion of these women

Rugby has a particular issue with inclusion of trans athletes. They made a serious attempt to create a evidence based policy. What they found was that when trans women who had been thru male puberty played in the womans game then injury became more likely and more serious. So inclusion of trans women in woman’s rugby is most certainly detrimental to the non trans women not just in reduced opportunity but also in increased risk of injury

I also find the shouting down of anyone wgo has doubts extremely disturbing. Cookeaas pozt has tones of this. Its not a wish to discriminate against anyone. No offense intended cookeaa and its not a severe example but denial of real concerns and labelling those concerns discriminatory polarises debate.

Thete are also situations where the reverse occurs of course. Treatment of trans people in the prison system has caused great distress and harm

Its very rare for me to not be able to xome to a conclusion and to be able to defend it but on this topic I cannot. I see no solution that does not disadvantage and even put at risk one group or another.

I am listening to the wider debate and hoping to learn more but as it stands i simply see no solution

I can give one example

Has that happened? Or is it a fear of what could happen, but hasn’t? Where has that fear come from?

I also read an extremely interesting piece by an American womans athlete who retrained in sociology after her sporting career was over. While she was competing she frequently came second to a trans athlete and thought this unfair. Once she had studied the topic academically and given distance from it she changed her mind and decided it was fair

Sorry i cant remember the name

If anyone can recommend some good reading on the topic then im interested

Unless you’re competing at an elite level, this shouldn’t bother you, alot like most of the Trans issues, it doesn’t affect 99.9% of people, yet seems to take up an unprecedented amount of air time. Its all just part of the war on woke / culture wars.

Women’s rugby pieface? Increased risk of injury even at grassroots level

Individual participation. Go to an U14 male rugby team and tell me that the 5’2″ scrum half is safer to play against the 5’10” lock forward than a female is.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender

But surely the same safeguarding rules apply to males / females regardless. If you’re putting together an all male squad, and your scenario is an amateur male squad with a 5’6″ 11 stone scrum half, who gets injured after tackling a 6’7″ 18 stone person, then can they wash their hands of all responsibility? I’m sure that the size differences are equivalent in the female arena too. I can’t imagine a transgender player goes in to these sports blindly and isn’t fully aware of the issues. Those welfare guidelines look like they’re stonewalling people that want to play.

Or is it just manufactured ‘concern’ based on some edge cases to try and make it seem like trans women’s rights can only come at the expense of women’s rights?

It should be obvious to anyone that this is a conflict of rights because of the rights being asked for – not equal rights, but someone else’s rights.

The subject of *this thread* isn’t the right to live free from discrimination or abuse in employment, housing or public spaces, but the right to access women’s sports and spaces (both together in the case of Lia Thomas, who successfully demanded to not only compete but also change with female athletes).

It’s a debate about the taking the rights which allow female people to participate fully in a male-dominated society and giving them on-demand to people who are not female.

Ther is regular reference in this thread to Elite Sports/Elite Sportspersons…. there may be various published attempts to clarify what is the definition of this but I’m interested in the STW perception, where would it lie?

World champion(ships)

European champion(ships)

International level

National championships

County Championships

Professional

Semi Professional

Amateur

Senior

Under 23 or other age cutoffs

Junior

Club level

By no means a comprehensive list and “etc” could be added to most of it. I’ve no wish to get drawn into the debate in a more general way but this part interests me.

Pieface. Its to protect the women from birth from the transgender women and yes iirc the found a 15 stone transwoman who had been thru male puberty was more likely to injure someone than a non transgender woman of the same weight.

Rugby is an outlier tho being a contact sport

Read tbe report. I don’t think it came to the conclusions world rugby were hoping for

@tjagain I hadn’t read your previous posts, point taken, I was looking at it through the wrong lens.

My position is it doesn’t directly affect me, so I don’t get worked up about it. What gets me worked up is people getting worked up about it when it has no direct impact on them.

Its not a false manufactured concern. Its real and not just around edge cases.

@tjagain I believe you have already travelled through several countries where self identification is the only requirement to identify as a woman.

I live in a country (Norway) where if I want to change my gender I go to the tax office, fill out a form, and that’s it.

If it’s going to be such a huge issue in the UK why isn’t is a huge issue already in the numerous countries that already allow self-identification?

Rugby has a particular issue with inclusion of trans athletes. They made a serious attempt to create a evidence based policy. What they found was that when trans women who had been thru male puberty played in the womans game then injury became more likely and more serious. So inclusion of trans women in woman’s rugby is most certainly detrimental to the non trans women not just in reduced opportunity but also in increased risk of injury

No they didn’t. They decided they didn’t want transwomen to be involved in the sport. They then made the usual hand waving gesture towards the ‘science’. Seriously, if I have to read one more time about the ‘science’ without any actual reference to the specific scientific papers that were used to come to this conclusion I’m chucking my computer out the window.

There are about a dozen or so studies where the conclusion says there is some retained advantage. However, once you actually look at the methodology some fairly obvious flaws appear. So please, no more appeals to ‘science’ unless you link to a peer reviewed study.

The only way to get a greater understanding would be to study post-transition elite level athletes. Which, of course, is not going to happen if you ban trans elite level athletes. Which is ultimately the objective.

Listen to this podcast for a woman rugby player’s perspective on the whole thing:

Podcast: Episode 218 – Transgender Women In Rugby

What gets me worked up is people getting worked up about it when it has no direct impact on them.

Whether they are “worked up” or only joining in a discussion, this thread would certainly be a lot shorter if it were only women members posting.

My comment was aimed more at the media / socila media’s frothing at the mouth when this issue comes up, rather than posters in this thread (I haven’t read the whole thing).

If self identification is all thats needed then this is no longer a safe space for these women

The part you’re missing here is in your understanding of “self-identification.” By your argument I could claim to identify as a carrot and that doesn’t make me a carrot. Perfectly valid concern. But critically, this is not what anyone is doing.

A question.

A few posters have (repeatedly) expressed an opinion along the lines of “trans women are still men so they shouldn’t be allowed into women’s ‘safe spaces’ or sporting events”. That being the case, presumably they would be perfectly happy with trans men being in those arenas because they’re still women?

It was the proposal in Scotland and anyone with reservations was labbelled a bigot. A very nasty ill tempered debate.

No they didn’t. They decided they didn’t want transwomen to be involved in the sport.

Untrue imo. They wated inclusion at least at amateur level. They were very suprised at the outcome. Thats certsinly how i read it

As for examples of safe spaces no longet being safe therecare many. Im having a break by the roadside right now but will pm them to you later. As pointed out above its thread drift

Cougar

Im relaying my feminist friends concerns a d asking questions I know i do not have the background or experience to have a firm view and also thevrange if different types of safe spaces makes it hard to produce a one size fits all solution

Yet, that’s exactly what you’re suggesting. We should rename you BinaryJeremy. 😁

She’s right to be concerned, it would be weird if she wasn’t. But whether it’s a valid concern is another matter.

Untrue imo. They wated inclusion at least at amateur level.

As far as I know the number of players affected by this in England at all levels was 6. If you’re talking about 6 people then you do not need a blanket rule. You can judge it on a case by case basis.

Exclusion was always the goal.

Cougar. I suggested no solutions. I asked questions

Is it though?
Or is it just manufactured ‘concern’ based on some edge cases to try and make it seem like trans women’s rights can only come at the expense of women’s rights?

My wife and her pals are probably on average half the age of TJ and his mates (assuming equal ages here) and I was surprised to hear they thought the same way. I should add that at least two of them are non-binary and the lot of them have no time for TERF’s. It would seem to be a very hot issue that is extremely difficult to reconcile.

But critically, this is not what anyone is doing.

@cougar the pertinent part was TJ saying this was happening at the extreme end of things. There are TRA’s out there who want self-identification to be just that. Now I should add that this is a very small minority but as someone else said the Lia Thomas case had a lot of accomodation for her rights but no consideration for the women that would be impacted.

There are TRA’s out there who want self-identification to be just that.

This doomsday scenario has already come to pass in many countries including where I am living now.

Why are all the terrible things that are supposed to happen if self-identification becomes a reality in the UK not already happening in all these other countries?

Yes tbe multiple women i know who are concerned or even angry about this are in their 50s or older. One possible answer is these older feminists grew up when equal rights for women still had to be faught for and younger women did not live thru these times and thus discount the value of safe spaces as they have always existed for them and dont realise the battles their elders faught to get them

It certainly does appear to be a generational divide

This one there are stories both ways. Transwomen in mens prisons being raped and in this case a trans women in a womens prison as a rapist. No obvious solution to me.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/25/transgender-rikers-inmate-gets-7-years-for-raping-female-prisoner/

There are also real cases of men convicted of spousal abuse seeking pkacement in womens refuges as transgender and then committing further acts of abuse

Again i offer no sutions but i am just pointing out these issues exist and for every case one way where transgender women abuse non transgender women there are cases of transgender women suffering ill treatment

It certainly does appear to be a generational divide

I don’t agree. The divide is between people who believe transwomen are women and those who don’t. Perhaps there is a generational divide in terms of people who believe transwomen are women but to say younger people don’t understand the struggles of older feminists is pretty patronising.

Equal rights are still having to be fought for. The only people who think the battle has already been won are misogynists.

No obvious solution to me.

The most obvious solution is a concerted effort to stop all sexual assaults in prisons, regardless of gender. It’s more difficult in the US and the UK where prison is seen as being there for punishment rather than rehabilitation, obviously.