Since when did the HMRC lower the 40% Income Tax threshold to £34k?

It’s the use of “rich” as a synonym of “income” in that calculator that’s causing me problems, and I suspect you’d agree they’re not the same things; you can be rich with no income and poor with a “relatively” high income.

They’re not the same but there’s often a fairly large correlation between the two. And as above, I’m fairly sure these things are meant as a general indicator to make you think, not an exhaustive study. Shame some people have to ignore that and focus only on a fairly irrelevant criticism.

Do you really not think most people in this country are very well-off, on a global scale, taking into account living costs?

I suspect you’d agree they’re not the same things;

Wealth and income are not identical but they are not unrelated

you can be rich with no income and poor with a “relatively” high income.

I think you mean you can be wealthy without much income. I dont think you can be “poor” with a high income. I accpe that many stately home dwellers are wealthy [rich]rather than [income]rich but they are some way from poor.
I am not sure how you can be poor with a high income tbh.

Maybe I shouldn’t have confused things by introducing the word “wealth”!

I would use wealth and income – rich is relative and no one will agree what it means.

“I am not sure how you can be poor with a high income tbh.”

high debt to service.

Define comfortably. I know plenty of people who live in/around London on much less than that and have perfectly happy lives. It shows an amazing lack of awareness of how many (most?) people live to come out with stuff like this. I guess for some people ‘comfortable’ means having a big house, driving an expensive car, having the latest fashions and tech, luxury holidays etc.

Do you live in the south east? Take woking for example – if I was renting my old one bed flat it would cost minimum of 800 per month in a not great part of town, plus 1100 a year council tax, plus bills. Thats 12 grand ish gone straight away. Then add on to that 3 grand for commuting to london and that 20k is starting to look pretty unrealistic.

Comfortable for me is running a old cheap car (5 year old bottom of the range mondeo estate), having a 3 bedroom house, buying clothes once in a blue moon, and having a couple of holidays a year to somewhere nice (but fairly cheap). That takes a load more than 20k. I’m not asking for any sympathy whatsosever – I just work fairly hard to ensure that I can do all the above – i’m just pointing out that London and the home counties is pretty different to the north of england.

“I am not sure how you can be poor with a high income tbh.”

high debt to service.

So it could happen, i suppose, if you went mental on credit cards but had no assets to show for it. Ok it is theoretically possible but very very uncommon
ta for the example

i’m just pointing out that London and the home counties is pretty different to the north of england.

Thankfully you are right 😛

i only know of it because i know someone whom i worked with who had an income of 45k plus bonuses which for me would be “well off/pretty close to being rich without excess”

but was poorer than a gnats fart due to a massive interest only mortgage on a house that he couldnt shift for anywhere near what he owed. (as there was an excess of houses due to the RAF base closing in the town) and a bunch of debt for flash cars etc that he no longer had.

So it could happen, i suppose, if you went mental on credit cards but had no assets to show for it. Ok it is theoretically possible but very very uncommon

Just like UK PLC?

Do you live in the south east? Take woking for example – if I was renting my old one bed flat it would cost minimum of 800 per month in a not great part of town, plus 1100 a year council tax, plus bills. Thats 12 grand ish gone straight away.

Living on your own is massively expensive though. I see no reason why living comfortably can’t include a house-share.

Comfortable for me is running a old cheap car (5 year old bottom of the range mondeo estate), having a 3 bedroom house, buying clothes once in a blue moon, and having a couple of holidays a year to somewhere nice (but fairly cheap).

That broadly fits my definition too, but does one person need a three bedroomed house? We are a couple with three bedrooms and it’s not really necessary TBH.

That takes a load more than 20k.

Not if you share rent/bills with other people IMO, even in London. Just googled houses in Woking – looks like you could rent a reasonably nice looking 4 bedroom house for £1500. That takes your rent down to £375 a month if you’re sharing, plus you save loads on bills too.

It’s also just about choices you make in life. If it’s so much easier to live and have disposable income up north what’s stopping you? Much better mountain biking too. 🙂

wrecker i like it !

Living on your own is massively expensive though. I see no reason why living comfortably can’t include a house-share.

Ok get your coat you pulled. Whereabouts in that there London shall we live?

Three bedrooms = rooms for your bikes – everyone does this surely
**** the kids they can share

i’m just pointing out that London and the home counties is pretty different to the north of england.

No not really, just the difference of a hundred or so a month – taking into account that rent is cheaper but wages are lower.

Ok get your coat you pulled.

Yay! 🙂

Three bedrooms = rooms for your bikes – everyone does this surely

I have a separate utility room/workshop for my bikes. Doesn’t everyone have one in the socialist utopia that is the north of England?

Not if you share rent/bills with other people IMO, even in London. Just googled houses in Woking – looks like you could rent a reasonably nice looking 4 bedroom house for £1500. That takes your rent down to £375 a month, plus you save loads on bills too.

True, but at some point wouldn’t you want to live by yourself / with your partner? That’s why I live in a 3 bedroom house – my wife and I brought it so we could potentially raise a family.

I lived in house shares whilst I was a student / in my twenties but I wouldn’t want to go back to it, although I guess in theory I could. Unless you have a partner it may not be a choice anyway

“So yuo think the rich Ronney does not work hardfor his money either but we should let him keep it”

no not that he just shouldnt be paid that in the first place

sorry for long wait on reply but am busy earning/working

no not that he just shouldnt be paid that in the first place

Assuming you’re talking about a footballer who attracts thousands, if not millions, of people who will willingly pay to watch him work, and you think he should not be alowed to receive a percentage of that. Am I correct?

sorry meant that much

Above we see one of the problems, @trail_rat suggests £45k pa is rich. So that would make sense that the 40% tax rate kicks in at the rich level. A lot of people on here would say £45k isnt’t rich.

Here is another example, Bob Crowe earns £100kpa plus lives in a subsidised house, all paid for by union members, is he rich ? is that right ?

When people say tax the rich what they really mean is someone else.

When people say tax the rich what they really mean is someone else.

Good point well made. That said, I’m quite happy to be taxed progressively based on my income, easiest option to not c0ck up massively in my opinion.

A lot of people on here would say £45k isnt’t rich.

SO they would be wrong

Here is another example, Bob Crowe earns £100kpa plus lives in a subsidised house, all paid for by union members, is he rich ? is that right ?

Right winger in almost factually accurate and yet utterly misleading anti union diatribe shocka.

When people say tax the rich what they really mean is someone else.

No they dont, I am rich
io would be happy to pay an additional tax to help out the needy and to try and raise everyone out of poverty – especially where there is starvation, poor sanitation etc

any chance of buying me a new bike then?????? please

@Junkyard – that’s the first time I’ve ever been called right wing. I am with Liam Byrne, if we don’t fix the social security system we will loose everything we’ve got. There are 6,000 council houses occupied by families with an income in excess of £100,000. There is sadly a very long list of stuff like this.

True, but at some point wouldn’t you want to live by yourself / with your partner? That’s why I live in a 3 bedroom house – my wife and I brought it so we could potentially raise a family.

I lived in house shares whilst I was a student / in my twenties but I wouldn’t want to go back to it, although I guess in theory I could. Unless you have a partner it may not be a choice anyway

Yeah but you are also then saving money by sharing rent/bills with your wife. Not as much as a house share but it’s significant.

When people say tax the rich what they really mean is someone else.

Nope. I’d be happy to pay more tax, especially if it was in return for Scandinavian levels of education, health care, and sense of society.

A lot of people on here would say £45k isnt’t rich.

It isn’t. Not by quite some distance.

with 45k you can stick a roof over your head you can walk round the supermarket with the ability to stick food in your basket without counting the pennies and you can afford clothing without having to save up.

you might not own your own house or that big fancy house you aspire to BUT you can live comfortably without penny counting if you choose to.

to me thats rich. If you have been at the other end of the scale where your walking round the supermarket counting the value of what your buying and wondering if your cards going to get declined because your almost out of money and its a week till payday then 45k is rich.

if someone was going to give me 45k a year for the rest of my life for nothing you wouldnt see me at work tomorrow put it that way.

house shares, best 5 years of my life bring it on

A lot of people on here would say £45k isnt’t rich.

I earn less than that and I think I’m relatively rich
As a sole wage earner, I’ve managed to help raise a family and send the 3 kids to uni, keep everyone fed,watered and warm and don’t struggle to pay the monthly bills.
Maybe it’s just me but a lot of my work colleagues that are always skint are the ones that buy sandwiches and coffee at lunchtime for around the same cost of putting a meal on the table for 5

so I’m rich and even better, I feel it.

Interesting perspectives. To me £45k in the UK isn’t rich, it’s reasonably comfortable not least because of the safety net the NHS provides and the other social service benefits we all enjoy.

When you start using words like rich the media will show pictures of yachts, luxury cars and large houses. You’ll not be living like that on £45k.

Junkyard – that’s the first time I’ve ever been called right wing.

Everyone is to the right of me 😉

I dont think council housing is technically subsidised and i dont se ewhy someoene succesful [ rich if you like] has to seel up and move to a posh part of town rather than saty within his community simply due to wealth. perhaps he should be charged a fair market rate to stay or something similar

A lot of people on here would say £45k isnt’t rich.

It isn’t. Not by quite some distance.
Well it puts you in the top 10 % of the top 7 countries in the world and the top 1 % globally – in your view how much further do you need to go to be rich then? A long way my arse.
See this is the problem with rich it is a subjective view exacerbated by the fact that if you live in that there London it may not feel like being rich even though you are.

Rich is the ability to buy clothing and groceries?
Come on.
Rich is 5 bed with no mortgage, regular new cars, organic free range fair trade, kids privately educated. You will not get that for £45K.
And whats the difference between husband and wife earning £22.5k each and husband earning £45k, wife not working? By this measure, the H&W team are also rich.

Rich is not dying of poverty you are describing wealthy 😉

Rich is 5 bed with no mortgage,

– tick

regular new cars,

– tick

organic free range fair trade,

– I’d rather have normal stuff

kids privately educated.

well, I’ve paid for 3 in Uni, still paying for one

How old are you jota?

53

I am not sure how you can be poor with a high income tbh

I did carefully say “relatively high”! The sort of thing I was thinking of was people I’ve worked with in India who earned enough to be some way off the bottom of that scale but were expected to support an extended family of several generations. They were not rich by any measure we’d use it in the west.

I’m guessing that you didn’t pay current house prices for your place then? You finish your term? Had any inheritance? You’ve worked all your life? I take it you’ve always felt rich?

@Junkyard

Point taken on left/right !

Council Housing is massively subsidised. It may operate at break-even but you couldn’t build them based upon the rents paid.

IMO Council housing should be means tested, it should be for the most needy. If you are fortunate to get a well paid job it’s time to move on.

How can it make sense that local authorities spend £30k+ pa putting families in B&Bs when they are very comfortably off people living in council properties who are very capable of fending for themselves.

i guess it depends what you value in life and if you follow what the media wants to spoon feed you.

i dont earn 45k and im more than comfortable with my life…. more money is always nice but it would be excess.

“IMO Council housing should be means tested, it should be for the most needy. If you are fortunate to get a well paid job it’s time to move on.”

agreed !!

to me thats rich. If you have been at the other end of the scale where your walking round the supermarket counting the value of what your buying and wondering if your cards going to get declined because your almost out of money and its a week till payday then 45k is rich.

I’d assume a lot of people who you would call rich have experienced the penny pinching at University…? I know I counted my pennies to the degree i’d be stressed if I spent more than 10 quid a week on food and I wouldn’t even call 45k well off.

If you’re under 35 and didn’t get the benefit of the 90’s and 00’s house price bubble then you’re pretty screwed unless you’re earning considerably more than 45k (as a single earner).

There’s an awful lot of “in theory” going on in this thread on a topic that is so very often a subjective one. At the heart of some of the discussion is what you consider the meaning of the word “rich” is. And for many that is all wrapped up in how much disposable income you have left after what you consider are your current outgoings. Not all outgoings are “essential” but they are what you have become used to. A large number of people naturally increase their spending in line with their income without necessarily making a conscious decision to.

So, in theory, £45k is a good salary. I would also argue that for most people that is not their definition of rich though. As a single person living in a place that is not excessively expensive I would argue that life could be ok but you would not be “rich” as you would certainly consider owning / buying a home a reasonable investment (that is likely to be cheaper than renting) and may need a car for travel. Are those things essential? Maybe, maybe not. Once you start adding in a spouse, offspring etc then I would say £45k is not that big a salary if you want to own that house, have that car and have a partner that is happy to be a full time parent and not work.

And, as others have commented, why do people think it is right that someone who earns a bigger salary should pay a higher rate of tax? The current tax system is already progressive in that the more you earn the more tax you pay but at a rate that is consistent and fair. And why should someone who earns more pay a higher local / community tax? Do their bins cost more to empty? Does it cost more to educate their kids in the same school as someone who earns less? I agree, it will seem proportionately cheaper for them but that tax is about the local services which, it could argued, are probably used less by the more wealthy thus being less value.

I’m guessing that you didn’t pay current house prices for your place then?

We paid the going rate, bought what we wanted 22 years ago and stayed in it rather than continually trying to get something ‘better’

You finish your term?

yes

Had any inheritance?

we have now but not cash

You’ve worked all your life?

Indeed, when Thatcher destroyed our industry, I worked on the bins, on the roads and a hundred other shitty jobs, sometimes 2 and 3 at a time

I take it you’ve always felt rich?

I’ve always managed to pay my bills and feed my family and feel very good about it, to me that’s rich, so yes