[Closed] Should the Red Arrows be scrapped?

Yes, they're part of our bag of tricks. How important, that's another question. At the end of the day I'd rather they binned them and provided more support for troops on the ground, but binning them doesn't even come close to the cost of 1 plane, or retro-fitting a single chinook, so it seems like small price to pay to have a great "advert".

Red Arrow costs are almost entirely met by sponsors like BAe. This one comes up every time defence cuts are announced and every time they get the OK cos £9m/year is unbelievably cheap to run a fleet of Hawks and the pilots and it's fantastic publicity - well proven inspiration to join the forces.

Keep them. There's too much emphasis on stealth and that in modern warfare, it just seems cowardly.

We should use the Red Arrows with bombs or whatever they use to dazzle the enemy.

Also, we should have really slow planes like Spitfires to strike fear into the hearts of the (insert oil/mineral/whatever it is we're after these days foreign sorts) coz we don't run.

yes. they're t@ssers. i met one once so i know.

Depends, if it comes out the defence budget then it's a decision for RAF bosses, if on the other hand it comes out of a different budget (I dunno, Shiny Red Planes, or something like that) that could be used for something else... then yep, nothing should be sacred.

ro - Member

yes. they're t@ssers. i met one once so i know.

that's funny ro cos I met a really nice one once and I have therefore surmised that the sun shines out of all their rear ends. 😆

more seriously, 9 million is a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the RAF and indeed probably much less than what it would cost without huuge sponsorship and what they charge for appearing at airshows (BBB excepted).

How much does it cost to run the queen out of interest? There is an argument that says the 'investment' in the royals is good for the country as it brings in tourists and interest in the UK, and part of the national identity, but of course this is very hard to measure. I would have thought a similar albeit much smaller thing was applicable to the cost/benefit of the red arrows.

Would we be having the same debate about the battle of britain memorial flight?

I think there's some figures that show the royals don't bring in that much in the way of Tourism...I suspect that if you suggested to the tories, that they needed to be cut they'd have an attack of the vapours...

How can you tell if someone is in the Red Arrows? You don't have to... They will tell you!

Oh, how we laughed.

I'm liking the idea of bringing back Spitfires to use as close air support though. The spams used A1 Skyraiders in 'Nam, so we could definitely use something similar. They'd be a lot cheaper than all those fast jet things too.

How much does it cost to run the queen out of interest?

The whole Royal Family costs each UK taxpayer 62p per year.

Bloody hell is this the Jeremy Vine Show, I agree though the money could be put to better use, although the Red Arrows to draw large crowds and are very popular, they flew over Rhyl at the weekend the only downside to that was they had no bombs to drop. 😉 😆

I think there's some figures that show the
royals don't bring in that much in the way of
Tourism...

Utter piffle-paffle and nonsense.

Go to just about any country in the world and ask locals what they know about the UK: it'll be something like bowlers hats, phone boxes, the Queen, Man Unitied, BBC

Ask them what they'd do on a long vacation in the UK and "see the Queen" is highly likely to figure somewhere.

You can rent the red arrows for £6000 I heard.
They even had a woman driver this year, gosh!
[img] [/img]

The whole Royal Family costs each UK taxpayer 62p per year.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8124022.stm ]It's actually 69p as of last year[/url], and doesn't include the cost of security. Which I'd imagine is a good few quid. Convenient that they left that bit off, eh? And the rest...

Can't see why the Red Arrows can't be funded by charity. If people are that passionate about them, then I'm sure they'd be able to raise the money. £8.8 million here, £5m there, etc, then maybe the country could save a bit without having to cut so many badly needed services.

Bloody hell is this the Jeremy Vine Show,

Always.

Ask them what they'd do on a long vacation in the UK and "see the Queen" is highly likely to figure somewhere.

Yeah, but they're not actually going to see the Queen, are they? Just look at her wonderful house. Meaning the Queen is actually redundant.

GrahamS perhaps I should have said Tourism [i]pounds[/i]. Costs nothing to stand outside Buck house...Legoland on the otherhand....

I thinks there's scope to reduce the cost of all the Royal Hangers-on. Can any-one tell me the point of the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester?

Go to just about any country in the world and ask locals what they know about the UK: it'll be something like bowlers hats, phone boxes, the Queen, Man Unitied, BBC

Why can't we get Man Utd to fly the planes and be run by the BBC, if we can get the Queen to do a wing walk dressed in a bowler hat and in a phone box then we've got the whole England experience ready to export.

Let the good times roll people! Keerrching$£$£$£

Ask them what they'd do on a long vacation in the UK and "see the Queen[b]'s house[/b]" is highly likely to figure somewhere.

I'm liking the idea of bringing back Spitfires to use as close air support though.

Already happening!
[img] [/img]

Keep them, I'm sure they generate revenue when they do displays abroad.

Your BBC story is from 2009. It dropped to 62p for 2009-2010:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/7872052/Cost-of-Royal-Family-drops-7p-per-person.html

And whether they actually see the Queen, or pay any money to access Royal households, is largely irrelevant.

The image of the Queen and the Royals is part of the reason they come and spend their dosh here. It's a big part of our "brand image" as a tourist destination. They certainly don't come for the weather!

This discussion is closed..

according to the Telegraph a few days a go The RAF is to be scrapped.

Ok so it's 'only' 62p. Big deal. It isn't really, it's several times that. We're just not told that.

People come for the [i]history[/i] of the monarchy. People don't got to Rome expecting to see Julius Caesar, do they? They don't go to Egypt to see the Pharaohs, do they? No, they go because of the history. The Royals could be quietly killed off without it affecting British tourism at all.

Keep them. They put on a damned good show and they are quite often reponsible for large crowds turning up at events which are raising money for charities (RNLI was the last benficiary of such a display the last time I went to see them)

The costs pale into insignificance compared to a lot of things and I they are a good way of bringing out a bit of patriotism (even I get struck by that bit!)

People come for the history of the monarchy. People don't got to Rome expecting to see Julius Caesar, do they? They don't go to Egypt to see the Pharaohs, do they? No, they go because of the history. The Royals could be quietly killed off without it affecting British tourism at all.

Yeah, it isn't like tourists don't go to Versailles because 1789 happened is it?

no

Versailles is rather more attractive than Buck Palace; if we got rid of the monarchy what would it become? A museum to the royalty maybe so still benefiting from the concept of the Royals.

I was standing on a mound, at the end of the runway when the Red 'Harras displayed at the Fanborough Air show the other week. They took off and stayed low and were virtually at our eye level as they passed, and the low pass stunts they did left us literally in the smoke trails (Yes it is diesel they use for the colour. You can smell it!)
Now, I've seen them many times but that was frikkin awesome, dude. They just filled the sky.
EVERYTHING else we saw after that was slightly lame, including the B52.

£8.8 million?

Utter bargain. 😀

I'd much rather they scrapped Trident.

Re the Royal Family - kill them and take all their billions of assets, it's not like they earned any of it 😐

It's actually 69p as of last year, and doesn't include the cost of security. Which I'd imagine is a good few quid. Convenient that they left that bit off, eh? And the rest...

Nevermind the royals, what about President Tony? He spends a few years comprehensively winding up a large portion of the country, on the basis of what Bush / God / Whoever's paying him consultancy fees said, and now we're paying for his security, bulletproof cars etc.

The Royals spend a good portion of their time gladhanding foreign dignitaries and citizens at least...

[i]I'd much rather they scrapped Trident.[/i]

Again, if Trident was actually paid for from the Defence budget, then I suspect many many Forces folk would agree with you...May happen yet.

Keep them, I'm sure they generate revenue when they do displays abroad.

. They put on a damned good show and they are quite often reponsible for large crowds turning up at events which are raising money for charities

they are a good way of
bringing out a bit of patriotism (even I get
struck by that bit!)

I'm getting confused which arguments are for the Red Arrows and which are for royalty 🙂

yes. they're t@ssers. i met one once so i know.

anyway:

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[img] [/img]

get rid? don't be soft.

Random fact - my dad developed the dye they use for the coloured smoke when he was a research chemist at ICI.

I take great delight in winding the missus up about the RAF being scrapped and split between the Army (rotary wing stuff) and Navy (fixed wing stuff) and that she'll soon be expected to wear either DPM or Navy blue. Also that all the fast jets are generally over-rated, a la Yanks in Nam what's needed for proper CAS is a well armoured, low flying, slow flying aircraft that can carry lots of bombs and bullets so we should scrap Tornados and Typhoons and get more of the turboprop Tucanos she works with at the Flying Training School.

Even she says most of the blue RAF think the Red Arrows are arrogant, although they are damn good pilots. But then again she didn't get a posting to work with them that she'd asked for...

That's Fowey isn't it? I'm going there next week for the regatta and Red Arrows action so don't bin 'em before then!!

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I love the Red Arrows, always have since a kid! 🙂

Send them over to Afghan, and they can do a few loop the loops and mix it up a bit 😉

Even she says most of the blue RAF think the Red Arrows are arrogant

I suspect when your job involves flying a jet upside-down at high speed directly towards some other jets, then a degree of self-belief and confidence is probably quite helpful.

Can you wait until the end of August so they do the prize giving fly by at the Big Bike Bash again please.

There are better savings to be made in defence. Keep the Red Arrows and put the kabosh on the goddamn stupid PFI agreements MOD have been locked into. Also, shoot any seconded management consultants on sight.

Job's a good 'un.

If all you know of it is 'they do swooshy flying and colours and stuff and it costs £Xm' then you might see it that way. If you see it in context and look at all the other facets, then you might see it another way.

Given the role the RA play in UK PLC as ambassadors, goodwill, shopfront for UK defence industry, PR, recruiting, tourism support etc then it is very different. If you can see beyond the headlines and do your own 'so what' analysis things are more complex. I am always dismayed when supposedly intelligent people read headlines and then not think even one step further.

[i] I am always dismayed when supposedly intelligent people read headlines and then not think even one step further.[/i]

You know how stupid the average man in the street is?

Half of them are even dumber!

That's Fowey isn't it?

In a strange coincidence, they just flew very low over my office in Newport. I looked up and thought "Awesome :D" Far more than £8m is wasted on far worse. Was it something like £400m to pay kids to stay in school (EMA)?

We sold them all over the world Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Finland, India, Indonesia, Kenya, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland, Indonesia, United Arab Emirates and Zimbabwe.

I strongly suspect the Red Arrows had a lot to do with the sales and £8.8M to show case British Industry is pennies when you consider the number of UK jobs the aerospace industry supports in the UK.

Britain needs industries that make thing, Germany who make things went into and came out of recession much later and earlier than us.

An economy based on service industries…

Am I missing something? They only cost the taxpayer £8m a year?

Is that because the RA's generate their own revenue stream which offsets the real cost?

Far more than £8m is wasted on far worse. Was it something like £400m to pay kids to stay in school

Yeah who needs for kids to be educated when you can have MASSIVE PLANES WITH BOMBS AND GUNS MAKING BIG TRAILS ACROSS THE SKY AND STUFF!!!!!!! 😛

No I mean how they calculate the real-cost to the taxpayer.

Does the defence industry and share of event gate receipts count against the annual cost?

I imagine transporting, servicing, personnel cost, servicing, spares, etc etc all add upto 100's £m.

Personally I think it is money that could be put to better use

Well it's a good job you have absolutely no say in the matter isn't it?

Personally I think it is money that could be put to better use

Better salaries and compensation to the victims and wounded personnel of our armed forces out in Afghanistan.

****ing disgusting to wage a war and expect people who put all on the line for their country to live on the breadline when they are no longer useful beit in a box or a youngman disfigured for life.

**** stupid arms sales or something visual. Certain frivolous spectacles should be suspended and the cost diverted to benefit for our lads and lasses.

A sort of managing your immediate responsibilities and priorities.

Red Arrows are great in peacetime- fantastic even. Replace them with war pilots on rotation with a different display method.

They've just done a display outside our window (we're on the top of a hill) - amazing!

[i]Replace them with war pilots on rotation with a different display method.[/i]

Are they not serving pilots who have done tours already, indeed I remember something about them having to have done tours already before selection. After their stint with the team they also go back to regular duties.

Yes but singular/in pairs and not in a dedicated team etc.

I do beleive that in straightened-times we should divert military spending to the front line and supporting the fallout from the front line.

Its not going to hurt longterm is it if you support your immediate needs first.

What about the navy gun run team? trooping the colour? the edinburgh tattoo?
At lease they're not trying to chop the TA like the last lot did!

I know. I thought wtf about the TA.

£8.8 million a year doesn't sound a lot

They are the perfect advertisement for the Government to show how much they care about the armed forces...or should I say they are the perfect cover for all the cuts they are just about to heap on the armed forces. Smoke and mirrors.

At 8.8million, that kind of value is hard to find when considering all those nasty expensive Typhoons and Tornado's they've got hanging around on airbases soaking up the cash.

I wonder how good a Hawk is at Quick reaction alert?

compared to £12 million for a 4 day visit from the pope......i think they represent excellent value for money.....and far more exciting to watch

You could get rid of a few hundred horses for the Cavalry and save the money that way. At least the Hawk aircraft has a role in training and could be used in anger. Horses not really cutting it this century.

Hora - it does hurt long term if you concentrate solely on what is under your nose. The Forces are in severe danger of getting over-focused on a long term land-based counter-insurgency - something we don't want to get into in the future. The old adage of being able to 'fight A war rather than THE war' holds true now more than ever.

They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.

Keep 'em.

Plus I know most of them and they'd not thank me if I were to say bin 'em!!

Sounds like the England goalkeeper has been put in charge of RAF skills training.

They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.

Quote BAE C.E.O.

Watched them training over RAF Valley on Saturday afternoon, whilst walking on the Anglesey Coastal path near Rhosneigr. V formation with one Hawk lower and tucked into the rear of the V.

One very fast pass and they were gone - we waited for AGES for them to come back but no sign at all.

If [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stupidestest-thing-heard-this-weekend ]Flashy [/url] was anywhere in the vicinity, he didn't wave 🙁

Worth every penny, IMO.

Scrap Em! .... but wait till they land first Eh ;O)

They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.

I'd really like to see some figures to back that up.

You could get rid of a few hundred horses for the Cavalry and save the money that way.

And countless other useless anachronistic military posturing shite. Like having ceremonial ****ing goats and other such needless shit. I bet millions could be saved by cutting bearskins and polished silver buttons and all the rest.

I like watching the Red Arrows, but I don't think stuff like that should be coming out of the public purse in a time of such austerity. That's what the Lottery's for. As for promoting the 'defence industry', well, that's what needless destructive wars in far flung foreign lands are for, aren't they?

compared to £12 million for a 4 day visit from the pope

Tell me you're joking?

The original story sounded pretty much like one of these pathetic MPs who is so desperate to get his name in the papers he comes up with something he knows will be controversial because it's a national institution, even though, in the scheme of things the amount of money is piddling.

Elfinsafety,

You'll never get figures, however they represent UK industry globally and they more than pay their way. Just a different budget!

I think BAe will enjoy their £700M Hawk deal for starters!! So will the residents of Brough!!

You'll never get figures

I knew that. Which is why I didn't really give it much consideration, tbh.

I don't hold with this 'National Institution' thing though; the Red Arrows are just a display team. As far as I know they are not derived from some heroic combat squadron or anything. Not like the Spitfire and it's pilots. Which is why I don't see why taxpayers' money needs to be spent keeping them going. Regardless of how 'little' it costs to run them.

Stuff like this is just ****ing nonsense:

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54847370481E918BBF03D7EA826A9E9612FEA13E36763861625E30A760B0D811297[/img]

Stuff like this is just ****ing nonsense:

Or maybe just part of a ritual or culture that you don't understand so you're attacking it like ignorant, narrow minded people do.

Elfinsafety,

Your post above demonstrates your ignorance. Comment on shite you know about; this obviously excludes the Military!

If it's ain't broken ...

[i]I don't hold with this 'National Institution' thing though[/i]

They are in the sense they are much loved/admired by a huge amount of people in this country, and are very much part of the country's traditions (and yes, I know that's open to a huge amount of debate about what is a "country's tradition).

[i]Which is why I don't see why taxpayers' money needs to be spent keeping them going.[/i]

For the simple reason that we'd miss them if they weren't there.

Or maybe just part of a ritual or culture that you don't understand so you're attacking it like ignorant, narrow minded people do.

The government talks of slashing spending on badly needed public services, thousands will lose their jobs, and you want to be all ceremonial over a ****ing goat? Go and do it in private then! 😀

Seriously though, what's to understand? An anachronistic 'ritual' that has no place in the realm of public spending.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Windsor_(goat) ]The tradition of having goats in the military originated in 1775,[2] when a wild goat walked onto the battlefield in Boston[2] during the American Revolutionary War and led the Welsh regimental colours at the end of the Battle of Bunker Hill.[3][4] Another Welsh military goat, Taffy IV, served in the First World War. Taffy, of 2nd Battalion, Welsh Regiment, is officially recorded as "The Regimental Goat". He embarked for the war on 13 August 1914 and saw action in the Retreat from Mons, the First Battle of Ypres (including the Battle of Gheluvelt) and the Battles of Festubert and Givenchy, before dying on 20 January 1915. He was posthumously awarded the 1914 Star, British War Medal and the Victory Medal.[5]
The royal goat herd was originally obtained from Mohammad Shah Qajar, Shah of Persia from 1834–1848,[6] when he presented them to Queen Victoria as a gift in 1837 upon her accession to the throne.[7]
The herd thrived on Llandudno's Great Orme; by 2001 they reached a population of 250, and were in danger of running out of food.[8] Following complaints about goats wandering into people's gardens, the council rejected proposals for a cull, deciding to use a combination of rehoming and birth control.[9] RSPCA marksmen tranquilized nannies and inserted contraceptive progesterone implants to control the numbers of the genetically-unique breed.[8][9] By 2007, 85 goats had been relocated to areas including Kent, Yorkshire, the Brecon Beacons and Somerset,[9] but further efforts were interrupted by an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease.[9[/url]

Explain to me exactly how such frivolous nonsense is essential in ensuring the security of our nation? As I said before, if people are passionate about it, let them pay from their own pockets rather than taxpayers' money being wasted on it.

Kennyp;

Notice that I'm not actually calling for theRed Arrows to be 'scrapped', in fact, as I've said, I like watching them. I just can't see the justification in using taxpayers' money to fund them any longer. Times have changed. Water is now in the hands of the Private Sector, so why can't alternative funding be found for things like the Red Arrows and ceremonial goats? These things aren't in any way necessary, so why should all of society pay for them? Let those who do care fund them if they are concerned with preserving them. As I said at the start, the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives. Many Air Ambulances are also charity funded. So why are we all paying for a display team and some goats, horses and shiny buttons? I thought the Nation had to tighten it's belt? I'm just looking for possible money saving schemes.

keep them , there great .

the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives.

I thought the RNLI liked being self funded as it avoids central government interference?

what your approach fails to take into account are factors like morale, heritage, tradition. it may seem unusual to someone outside of these organisations, but links to the past are enormously pertinent to the guys and girls of our armed forces we ask to ( or who volunteer, depending upon how you look at it ) put their lives on the line for what our politicians determine worth fighting for. anachronistic? perhaps. but if it makes the chaps who have to ship out to the sandpit or afghanistan feel even a little bit better about it, and feel some link to those in their battalion who have gone, and given their lives before them, it's worth it, isn't it?

oh - and i think the rnli has always been charity based, and although i'd be very happy for the air ambulance to scoop me up in a timely manner if break myself, there has been a cost/benefit analysis in most regions that suggests that they just aren't worth it.

Thanks Del, for an intelligent, reasoned viewpoint. Something to consider, for sure. I appreciate the role of 'mascots' in military regiments, but I do think a lot of the parade stuff is outdated and a waste of public money. I do see the point of keeping morale up for troops on the front line, for sure, but I hardly think a bloody goat in a little jerkin is all that appropriate, let's be honest.

Just quickly going back to an earlier part of the thread - I know "Squadron Leader Steve R. JOHNSON" they guy who hit a yacht mast in brighton back in 1980. really really nice guy, flies commercial aircraft these days.

Elfinsafety - you appear to have no understanding of the Armed Forces as a whole, the people who serve, their motivation, the relationship of the UK defence industry (which exists, employs thousands and brings billions to the economy whether you personally like it or not) with the UK as a whole and the importance of inherited values and traditions.
As usual, you see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. As with any large organization, if you look at something as big as the Navy, Army and Air Force and view each penny packet in isolation without knowledge of capability, relationship to other elements or origins, things are simple. Take several steps back, see it in context and suddenly things become much clearer - more complex but clearer.