Am I missing something? They only cost the taxpayer £8m a year?
Is that because the RA's generate their own revenue stream which offsets the real cost?
Far more than £8m is wasted on far worse. Was it something like £400m to pay kids to stay in school
Yeah who needs for kids to be educated when you can have MASSIVE PLANES WITH BOMBS AND GUNS MAKING BIG TRAILS ACROSS THE SKY AND STUFF!!!!!!! 😛
No I mean how they calculate the real-cost to the taxpayer.
Does the defence industry and share of event gate receipts count against the annual cost?
I imagine transporting, servicing, personnel cost, servicing, spares, etc etc all add upto 100's £m.
Personally I think it is money that could be put to better use
Well it's a good job you have absolutely no say in the matter isn't it?
Personally I think it is money that could be put to better use
Better salaries and compensation to the victims and wounded personnel of our armed forces out in Afghanistan.
****ing disgusting to wage a war and expect people who put all on the line for their country to live on the breadline when they are no longer useful beit in a box or a youngman disfigured for life.
**** stupid arms sales or something visual. Certain frivolous spectacles should be suspended and the cost diverted to benefit for our lads and lasses.
A sort of managing your immediate responsibilities and priorities.
Red Arrows are great in peacetime- fantastic even. Replace them with war pilots on rotation with a different display method.
They've just done a display outside our window (we're on the top of a hill) - amazing!
[i]Replace them with war pilots on rotation with a different display method.[/i]
Are they not serving pilots who have done tours already, indeed I remember something about them having to have done tours already before selection. After their stint with the team they also go back to regular duties.
Yes but singular/in pairs and not in a dedicated team etc.
I do beleive that in straightened-times we should divert military spending to the front line and supporting the fallout from the front line.
Its not going to hurt longterm is it if you support your immediate needs first.
What about the navy gun run team? trooping the colour? the edinburgh tattoo?
At lease they're not trying to chop the TA like the last lot did!
I know. I thought wtf about the TA.
£8.8 million a year doesn't sound a lot
They are the perfect advertisement for the Government to show how much they care about the armed forces...or should I say they are the perfect cover for all the cuts they are just about to heap on the armed forces. Smoke and mirrors.
At 8.8million, that kind of value is hard to find when considering all those nasty expensive Typhoons and Tornado's they've got hanging around on airbases soaking up the cash.
I wonder how good a Hawk is at Quick reaction alert?
compared to £12 million for a 4 day visit from the pope......i think they represent excellent value for money.....and far more exciting to watch
You could get rid of a few hundred horses for the Cavalry and save the money that way. At least the Hawk aircraft has a role in training and could be used in anger. Horses not really cutting it this century.
Hora - it does hurt long term if you concentrate solely on what is under your nose. The Forces are in severe danger of getting over-focused on a long term land-based counter-insurgency - something we don't want to get into in the future. The old adage of being able to 'fight A war rather than THE war' holds true now more than ever.
They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.
Keep 'em.
Plus I know most of them and they'd not thank me if I were to say bin 'em!!
Sounds like the England goalkeeper has been put in charge of RAF skills training.
They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.
Quote BAE C.E.O.
Watched them training over RAF Valley on Saturday afternoon, whilst walking on the Anglesey Coastal path near Rhosneigr. V formation with one Hawk lower and tucked into the rear of the V.
One very fast pass and they were gone - we waited for AGES for them to come back but no sign at all.
If [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stupidestest-thing-heard-this-weekend ]Flashy [/url] was anywhere in the vicinity, he didn't wave 🙁
Worth every penny, IMO.
Scrap Em! .... but wait till they land first Eh ;O)
They bring in far more to UK plc than they cost.
I'd really like to see some figures to back that up.
You could get rid of a few hundred horses for the Cavalry and save the money that way.
And countless other useless anachronistic military posturing shite. Like having ceremonial ****ing goats and other such needless shit. I bet millions could be saved by cutting bearskins and polished silver buttons and all the rest.
I like watching the Red Arrows, but I don't think stuff like that should be coming out of the public purse in a time of such austerity. That's what the Lottery's for. As for promoting the 'defence industry', well, that's what needless destructive wars in far flung foreign lands are for, aren't they?
compared to £12 million for a 4 day visit from the pope
Tell me you're joking?
The original story sounded pretty much like one of these pathetic MPs who is so desperate to get his name in the papers he comes up with something he knows will be controversial because it's a national institution, even though, in the scheme of things the amount of money is piddling.
Elfinsafety,
You'll never get figures, however they represent UK industry globally and they more than pay their way. Just a different budget!
I think BAe will enjoy their £700M Hawk deal for starters!! So will the residents of Brough!!
You'll never get figures
I knew that. Which is why I didn't really give it much consideration, tbh.
I don't hold with this 'National Institution' thing though; the Red Arrows are just a display team. As far as I know they are not derived from some heroic combat squadron or anything. Not like the Spitfire and it's pilots. Which is why I don't see why taxpayers' money needs to be spent keeping them going. Regardless of how 'little' it costs to run them.
Stuff like this is just ****ing nonsense:
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Stuff like this is just ****ing nonsense:
Or maybe just part of a ritual or culture that you don't understand so you're attacking it like ignorant, narrow minded people do.
Elfinsafety,
Your post above demonstrates your ignorance. Comment on shite you know about; this obviously excludes the Military!
If it's ain't broken ...
[i]I don't hold with this 'National Institution' thing though[/i]
They are in the sense they are much loved/admired by a huge amount of people in this country, and are very much part of the country's traditions (and yes, I know that's open to a huge amount of debate about what is a "country's tradition).
[i]Which is why I don't see why taxpayers' money needs to be spent keeping them going.[/i]
For the simple reason that we'd miss them if they weren't there.
Or maybe just part of a ritual or culture that you don't understand so you're attacking it like ignorant, narrow minded people do.
The government talks of slashing spending on badly needed public services, thousands will lose their jobs, and you want to be all ceremonial over a ****ing goat? Go and do it in private then! 😀
Seriously though, what's to understand? An anachronistic 'ritual' that has no place in the realm of public spending.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Windsor_(goat) ]The tradition of having goats in the military originated in 1775,[2] when a wild goat walked onto the battlefield in Boston[2] during the American Revolutionary War and led the Welsh regimental colours at the end of the Battle of Bunker Hill.[3][4] Another Welsh military goat, Taffy IV, served in the First World War. Taffy, of 2nd Battalion, Welsh Regiment, is officially recorded as "The Regimental Goat". He embarked for the war on 13 August 1914 and saw action in the Retreat from Mons, the First Battle of Ypres (including the Battle of Gheluvelt) and the Battles of Festubert and Givenchy, before dying on 20 January 1915. He was posthumously awarded the 1914 Star, British War Medal and the Victory Medal.[5]
The royal goat herd was originally obtained from Mohammad Shah Qajar, Shah of Persia from 1834–1848,[6] when he presented them to Queen Victoria as a gift in 1837 upon her accession to the throne.[7]
The herd thrived on Llandudno's Great Orme; by 2001 they reached a population of 250, and were in danger of running out of food.[8] Following complaints about goats wandering into people's gardens, the council rejected proposals for a cull, deciding to use a combination of rehoming and birth control.[9] RSPCA marksmen tranquilized nannies and inserted contraceptive progesterone implants to control the numbers of the genetically-unique breed.[8][9] By 2007, 85 goats had been relocated to areas including Kent, Yorkshire, the Brecon Beacons and Somerset,[9] but further efforts were interrupted by an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease.[9[/url]
Explain to me exactly how such frivolous nonsense is essential in ensuring the security of our nation? As I said before, if people are passionate about it, let them pay from their own pockets rather than taxpayers' money being wasted on it.
Kennyp;
Notice that I'm not actually calling for theRed Arrows to be 'scrapped', in fact, as I've said, I like watching them. I just can't see the justification in using taxpayers' money to fund them any longer. Times have changed. Water is now in the hands of the Private Sector, so why can't alternative funding be found for things like the Red Arrows and ceremonial goats? These things aren't in any way necessary, so why should all of society pay for them? Let those who do care fund them if they are concerned with preserving them. As I said at the start, the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives. Many Air Ambulances are also charity funded. So why are we all paying for a display team and some goats, horses and shiny buttons? I thought the Nation had to tighten it's belt? I'm just looking for possible money saving schemes.
keep them , there great .
the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives.
I thought the RNLI liked being self funded as it avoids central government interference?
what your approach fails to take into account are factors like morale, heritage, tradition. it may seem unusual to someone outside of these organisations, but links to the past are enormously pertinent to the guys and girls of our armed forces we ask to ( or who volunteer, depending upon how you look at it ) put their lives on the line for what our politicians determine worth fighting for. anachronistic? perhaps. but if it makes the chaps who have to ship out to the sandpit or afghanistan feel even a little bit better about it, and feel some link to those in their battalion who have gone, and given their lives before them, it's worth it, isn't it?
oh - and i think the rnli has always been charity based, and although i'd be very happy for the air ambulance to scoop me up in a timely manner if break myself, there has been a cost/benefit analysis in most regions that suggests that they just aren't worth it.
Thanks Del, for an intelligent, reasoned viewpoint. Something to consider, for sure. I appreciate the role of 'mascots' in military regiments, but I do think a lot of the parade stuff is outdated and a waste of public money. I do see the point of keeping morale up for troops on the front line, for sure, but I hardly think a bloody goat in a little jerkin is all that appropriate, let's be honest.
Just quickly going back to an earlier part of the thread - I know "Squadron Leader Steve R. JOHNSON" they guy who hit a yacht mast in brighton back in 1980. really really nice guy, flies commercial aircraft these days.
Elfinsafety - you appear to have no understanding of the Armed Forces as a whole, the people who serve, their motivation, the relationship of the UK defence industry (which exists, employs thousands and brings billions to the economy whether you personally like it or not) with the UK as a whole and the importance of inherited values and traditions.
As usual, you see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. As with any large organization, if you look at something as big as the Navy, Army and Air Force and view each penny packet in isolation without knowledge of capability, relationship to other elements or origins, things are simple. Take several steps back, see it in context and suddenly things become much clearer - more complex but clearer.
the Red Arrows are just a display team
No, they are noy JUST a display team. They are THE BEST aircraft display team in the World. Bar none. And for that alone £8.8 million is worth it just to rub the Yanks faces in it. 😉
Tell you what, I've just worked out they cost everyone about 15p a year. I'll give you £1.50 and they you're not paying for them for the next 10 years, eh? 8)
Given the amount of people crowded round Falmouth & the general area last night & the amount that'll be in Fowey next wednesday & I'm sure that's replicated where ever they turn up, I'd say it's money well spent.
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I'll give him £1.50 as well.
15p a year's a bargain.
How much was claimed by MP's last year I wonder, probably not 8 million but I know where I'd rather see my money go.
My wife and daughter watched them in while they were in Minehead yesterday, supposedly Butlins paid the (£6000?)fee.
I think it would cost a [i]lot[/i] more than 6k to get them all off the ground for a display, but if they are anything like the Vulcan (my father-in-law works for/with them) they string several displays all over the country together in the same sortie: it only takes them half an hour to get from one to the next so as long as they make sure they've done a wee before they leave....
Keep 'em. If for no other reason than whenever there is a flypast in London they (and the rest of the flypast, but just the jets) fly right over my house. When I say right over, I mean right over!
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Also get lots of other nice shiney loud stuff 😀
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More [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheesyfeet/sets/72157594168375196/ ]here[/url] and [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheesyfeet/sets/72157605602589482/ ]here[/url]
Saw them flying over the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year..they made me quite proud and emotional. I wonder how many international visitors looked up and commented that they wish their country had something similar?
Typical if this country....something works....let's discuss scrapping it,
Jeez they install far more pride than those idiotic overpaid footballers that have spawned 50 years of moronic idolisation and zombie like followings!
Fly high for as long as you can - long live our great Red Arrows!
Love the Red Arrows... £8.5 million a year? Bargain! 8)
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Do any of the knockers consider that doing this sort of thing hones the skills needed to fly a plane?
It hones the skill of flying very close formation for ten pilots out of I don't know how many, yes. It has the square root of bugger all to do with tactical combat flying though.
(I'm not a knocker.)