Should electronic suspension be allowed in WC racing?

So after watching Leogang at the weekend I got thinking about the electronic suspension systems in WC DH.

RockShox have their Flight Attendant, Fox have Live Valve (not sure if this is in use) and Specialized running some electronic Ohlins.

Is it a coincidence that both Mens & Womens winners has electronic suspension?

I wonder how much of an advantage it is over (dare I say it…) analogue suspension?

Those with ‘analogue’ will need to compromise their set up somewhat to accommodate the varying types of terrain at Leogang.

Ronan Dunne & Jordi Cortes talk about is in this video:

Also noticed a few in XC & Enduro with flight attendant equipped bouncy bits too….

It’s been a thing about as long as suspension has.  Noleen had them on Proflex frames in the 90’s, Canondale had an electric lefty (and/or headshock?) in the 2000’s. I’m pretty sure Specialized had a variation on the BRAIN  shocks that took inputs from the fork and used that to open/close the lockout on the rear or did I imagine that or was it someone else?

Is it a coincidence that both Mens & Womens winners has electronic suspension?

I’d hazard that riders with sponsorship form suspension brands and testing prototypes are probably the ones that would win anyway even if their shock blew up completely.

Bit torn on that one.

On the one hand, it is progress in the industry and the technology will (in theory anyway) trickle down to lower spec stuff and will get cheaper. By just banning everything new stunts progress.

On the other hand it means those with bigger budgets have an advantage…

Its not as if Loic has come out of nowhere to win.

Is the main factor not simply that the teams with big budgets attract really good riders?

Differences in suspension = marginal gains?

Realistically, how much difference does Flight Attendant make?

I know nothing about DH racing but I can’t imagine that it makes a race-winning difference in XC.

I could understand people complaining if they had electronically adjustable suspension like Moto GP tried a few years back where the suspension was adjusted via GPS depending on where the bike was on the course but I thought the likes of Flight Attendant were just a fancy lockout system?

Is the main factor not simply that the teams with big budgets attract really good riders?

A variation on this: surely it proves the product is better (from a technical AND marketing point of view) if they provided it to “mid-level” riders and could demonstrate higher position finishes were the result.

If you give them to the best riders and they win, what have you proved? Nothing, because there’s a very good chance they would have won anyway…

Ronan Dunne & Jordi Cortes talk about is in this video

The point made, if you want to save yourself 13 minutes, is, I believe, that this track is tricky to set up for as there are some very different sections within it.

edit – argh, as was said in the OP! Not much more said in the video.

Loic and Vali are clearly the best at the mo.

But, loic in particular has had some wins where he’s been 3s faster on a section that’s not even on the telly (presumably a bit flat).

So personally I’d prefer to see it banned (but it won’t be).

As someone with just a passing interest in racing, I like that anyone can run the same stuff as the pros at a reasonably accessible cost. Compared to top level motorsport, the accessibility of it seems good. I imagine someone could work an average job, get a couple small sponsors to help you out, and enter your home country Enduro/DH round not at a significant equipment disadvantage to anyone.

As a consumer, I don’t really care what they do in racing as long as I can buy good equipment and it continues to get better with development. I can imagine that if the pro and consumer products diverge too much, then there will be less trickle down of technology – there’s less incentive to improve the consumer products.

What would impress me as a consumer, is a parts quota for a race or the season. And possibly servicing too with sealed units. One fork and shock per season, service it according to manufacturer intervals. None of this nonsense where as in a recent photo there was a massive pile of broken rims outside the DT Swiss tent after one morning of practice. Demonstrate the sustainability, reliability, and longevity of your products. Riders demonstrate your ability to ride fast while not destroying things.

Everyone will have it next year and any advantage will be gone.

What would impress me as a consumer, is a parts quota for a race or the season. And possibly servicing too with sealed units. One fork and shock per season, service it according to manufacturer intervals. None of this nonsense where as in a recent photo there was a massive pile of broken rims outside the DT Swiss tent after one morning of practice. Demonstrate the sustainability, reliability, and longevity of your products. Riders demonstrate your ability to ride fast while not destroying things.

enduro is or at least was this.

Same fork, frame and rims for the whole practice and race. In years gone by that could be 4 consecutive 1800m days.

I wonder how much of an advantage it is over (dare I say it…) analogue suspension?

Enough that they bother, presumably.

I am no racer but my new bike was ridiculously specced and came with flight attendant and other axs bits.

Every ride I’ve been faster on segments. Even faster than the kenevo on sections that are flattish.

On most of those segments it was fully open but on bits where I was pedaling I could hear it go to “pedal” (because I was listening for it).

Personally I think it makes a difference. Would I buy it as an upgrade? No way.

Most of the riders use telemetry which is (depending on your interpretation of the word) the dynamic measurement of the suspension, travel, etc. There’s several kits out there that do this and most teams have one or more suspension guys on the sidelines.

As you may have seen from my lad, this is fairly common in DH too at grass roots level and i’d say a decent chunk of the racers even at Youth and Juvenile levels have had their suspension done. The ones who have not, will have potentially had their suspension ‘tuned’ by the usual companies like TFTuned, J-Tech, Sprung etc..

The electronic suspension intrigues and worries me slightly as you’d expect, the intrigue comes from the tech nerd in me and liking seeing this sort of stuff, the worry comes from the day i have to get the big boy wallet out.

For me though, WC racing is different as it’s the pinnacle of the sport and of course it should be allowed, but you do expect in an F1 context, the teams with the budget will be the teams that do best mostly. But DH is still about the rider IMO, the best riders will come to the top and do the best.

I guess the only way to know is to pick a ‘decent’ rider and give them better suspension and see..

 I like that anyone can run the same stuff as the pros at a reasonably accessible cost.

For some things that’s true, for other things, it night look the same, of have the same stickers, but you can’t buy what they’re using.

but I can’t imagine that it makes a race-winning difference in XC.

I think you’d be surprised. Some athletes have called it game-changing.

Nino used flight attendant in the xc a couple of years ago and the data showed his settings changed on average 15 times a minute over 90 minutes race.

Now the question is could the pit change settings on the fly? Difficult to time it but not impossible but more likely to be effective in an xc race.

get a couple small sponsors to help you out, and enter your home country Enduro/DH round not at a significant equipment disadvantage to anyone.

The biggest advantage is that you have someone else looking after your kit if you’re on the top teams. Not necessarily the kit itself. Fancy a slightly higher pressure in your shock, mech deals with it, bit more rebound, mech does it, gears a bit laggy, mech does it. Buying high end kit as a privateer can actually make things worse as you spend more time on set up and “looking after”, less time training, more stress on race day, more chance for stuff to go wrong.

Even XC or road it makes a *significant* difference. And mech time is a tiny fraction of race and training time, in DH /Enduro you probably spend more time on the mech stuff than you do racing and probably not far off training as well7!

Most of the riders use telemetry which is (depending on your interpretation of the word) the dynamic measurement of the suspension, travel, etc. There’s several kits out there that do this and most teams have one or more suspension guys on the sidelines.

this is the bit I personally don’t like and think should be banned. Running practise with your bike covered in electronic sensors and then a computer or technician telling the rider what settings they should have for this specific track* doesnt sit right with me.

Thats taking some of the skill from the rider and passing it to a third party.

The bike adjusting between “plough through rock garden” “berm pumping” and “sprint pedal lockout” modes whether thats Loic pushing a button or Vali’s bike figuring it out for itself, seems like a reasonable thing to have as its kind of applicable to real world riding as evidenced by these things (or similar, or even adjusting with good old cables) already existing on the consumer level, and seem appreciated by those who use them.

*going off on your own time away from the racing to get your bike set up for your weight, balance and style, seems like a sensible thing to do though.

Lets just make everyone ride single speed steel HT’s from the 80’s to level the playing field then eh!

It’s top level racing, where things are developed and if the developments are within the regulations then it’s all fair game. Those developments lead to market release of products, frames, suspension, wheels, tyres etc so we can all benefit one way or another, granted within pro cycling there are things that are pro issue only for a while but they eventually make it to the masses.

Interesting that F1 has been mentioned, where such suspension adjustments are banned. MotoGP is also about to ban rider activated suspension changes.

I find myself falling on the “ban” side for DH too. Telemetry can stay though. All telemetry does is point you in the right direction, but there’s still a compromise to be made that the team (inc rider) need to decide on. This is especially true at tracks like Leogang. OTOH electronic adjustment can take away a large amount of this compromise, making it a “rider aid” of sorts.

Probably feel the same about XC. Would perhaps allow a 2-position rider activated system to stay though (same for DH)

None of this nonsense where as in a recent photo there was a massive pile of broken rims outside the DT Swiss tent after one morning of practice.

This situation is absolutely taking the piss and feels like its getting worse. I would like to see a quota of rims that can be used over the course of a season

Thats taking some of the skill from the rider and passing it to a third party.

What about the team spotters, the timing beams, the action cameras, the drones…At a basic level what what about mechanics? team managers? masseurs and physio? Psychological support and coaching? Riders can’t be skilled in all these areas, and 3rd party support is, I’d wager, indispensable at the top level.

Good post Mashr, I agree.

Telemetry has been about for years, is reasonably accessible and doesn’t seem to provide a massive edge.

A simple 2-pos adjustment for suspension should be achievable for most teams/suspension firms, so that could be OK.

But I know RS and Fox are both trying to make electric suspension a profitable new product line (despite most of us not being interested in it), so are the teams they sponsor going to lobby to have that tech excluded?

That’s why I don’t think a ban will happen.

What about the team spotters, the timing beams, the action cameras, the drones…

I’m not crazy about spotters either, but think the genie is out the bag given that the track will be surrounded with people and everyone carries near-HD video cameras around with them at all times anyway.

Everything else is just a different way of try these two options and we’ll see which is faster by measuring it rather than going by feel.

Telemetry has been about for years, is reasonably accessible and doesn’t seem to provide a massive edge.

Couldn’t disagree more… honestly.. it’s night and day between a bike that’s not set up and a bike that is. Whether that’s using telemetry or an expert, either works, but when you’re at their level then it makes a HUGE difference and removes any of the ‘what if’

(night and day is a relative term of course)

Here’s a small idea of the sort of thing you get, but of course you then also need the interpretation of that data and what to do with it to resolve any issues.

The riders are honestly good enough where 1 click can make 3/10ths improvement on a 2 minute lap, or maybe even 0.5s over a track… That can be the difference in 2-3 places at either National or WC levels.

data3 by Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

data2 by Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

Couldn’t disagree more… honestly.. it’s night and day between a bike that’s not set up and a bike that is. Whether that’s using telemetry or an expert

Yep, we are talking about the WC – and I was thinking those who don’t go all out with telemetry (I think some riders find it a distraction) will have access to experts to twiddle their knobs.

I quite like because I’m a bit of a geek and think it’s amazing tech.

I can’t see a ban coming in because it’s exactly the direction that Discovery want to push the sport – big budgets, big trucks & small numbers of the very best riders – this plays to that.

A shame for the privateers but makes for an even more interesting story if they happen to push through it.

I think you’d be surprised. Some athletes have called it game-changing.

Sponsored athletes call all their new gear game changing. So does everyone on YouTube who blags some free kit for a ‘review’.

Most of the riders use telemetry

None of the WC teams (with the possible exception of Spec/Ohlins who are very secretive) use telemetry. Many use dataloggers. Pretty sure you won’t find telemetry in the BDS paddock either.

IMO, MTB tech is light years behind where it could be, and where motorcycle and every other wheeled vehicle is.

There is 100% a place for datalogging and it’s been used to good effect in DH since Nico was on Sunn-Chipie almost 30 years ago. IIRC, Dave Hemming also used datalogging on Marin in the late 90’s when Jon Whyte was designing them.

With my limited research, I believe that the Spec/Ohlins bikes are implementing suspension tech on MTB’s with the benefit of more knowledge of other suspension applications giving more perspectives of what “good suspension” could or should be. Taking experienced suspension tech’s from outside the MTB world gives another perspective.

However, I think some legislation would be beneficial in future to restrict telemetry, as it is in Formula One. If it can be policed.

Most of the riders use telemetry which is (depending on your interpretation of the word)

As i said… it’s all down to how the word is interpreted but was the simplest terminology, however of course someone here would have to be pedantic about it 🙂

we’ll call it data-aquisition then 🙂

As i said… it’s all down to how the word is interpreted but was the simplest terminology, however of course someone here would have to be pedantic about it 🙂

Your use terminology will royally get the back up of experienced suspension engineers so tread carefully. Telemetry, by definition uses radio signals to transmit the data to the pits & unless strictly regulated (as per F1) enables engineers to adjust the suspension while the vehicle is on-track.

In essence its no more then a lockout, just instead of being cable operated, some are electronic and some are trying to read the terrain and change automatically.

this is the bit I personally don’t like and think should be banned. Running practise with your bike covered in electronic sensors and then a computer or technician telling the rider what settings they should have for this specific track* doesnt sit right with me.

Thats taking some of the skill from the rider and passing it to a third party.

There’s still a Yin and Yang here where the rider needs to be riding their lines and keep hitting those lines for any data to be valid, I would suggest even an increase in speed from practise to finals could invalidate some data and thus settings.

Couldn’t disagree more… honestly.. it’s night and day between a bike that’s not set up and a bike that is.

I would see this help get you a good base setting, but again rider preference and the building of speed through practise to finals means riders need to be aware of settings and what they do rather then have blind faith IMO.

Both my above points also don’t factor in two big things, weather which can turn a dusty and loamy track into an ice rink and rider ability, maybe less so in the WC level, but I would expect at levels below there will be riders who bike set up is not optimal, but their skill makes up for it.

Telemetry, by definition uses radio signals to transmit the data to the pits & unless strictly regulated (as per F1) enables engineers to adjust the suspension while the vehicle is on-track.

Sort of, by definition telemetry is remote measuring.

Dunno if there’s a word for adjusting remotely, but its not telemetry.

Telemetry, by definition uses radio signals to transmit the data to the pits & unless strictly regulated (as per F1) enables engineers to adjust the suspension while the vehicle is on-track.
Sort of, by definition telemetry is remote measuring.

Dunno if there’s a word for adjusting remotely, but its not telemetry.

Fair point. In F1, they generally refer to a ban on 2-way telemetry which it what I was getting at & I don’t know the correct definition. I’m not sure how you police random radio signals half way up a mountain, but I think it could become an interesting challenge in the next couple of years.

Specialized and Loic still being slightly cagey about what the buttons do……

Unless it really is for his Spotify playlist……