Shoe-pedal stability and impact on ride comfort, power etc

Does anyone have experience of how the side-to-side stability or support of a shoe from the pedal can influence comfort, or how a lack of it may cause problems?

Any recommendations to further reading or info that can help me understand a bit more about what’s going on in that area?

For background I’ve been having some weird hip/groin right side pain during harder rides for some time and have kept it to a minimum with various changes. The sort of thing that just gets uncomfortable after periods of riding hard or climbing at a pace, a dull, gradual tension pain not anything like a pulled muscle.

One thing that may have exacerbated is worn shoes and pedals. For 15+ years I’ve been riding Shimano M520/M540 style SPDs, even on the road and also for plenty of long and multi-day rides on or off-road. Because they’ve been such a constant in my cycling I hadn’t considered them the cause of this pain and had focussed on hip flexor stretches, core strength etc which has been beneficial generally but the darn hip discomfort eventually puts a lid on the effort I can put into rides.

I put some Shimano ES600 road pedals on one bike recently, a one-sided MTB SPD cleat type with more contact area support for the shoe, and I liked them. Then I changed the gravel bike to some PD-ME700 pedals, the enduro MTB type with a larger fixed cage surround. Initial impression is that the added (or huge, on the ME700s) platform width is game-changing, I’ve been out sprinting at hills in a way I’ve not done much of in a long time and it feels so good to be able to work at max level again. No pain or tension discomfort during or after the ride. So much of a change that I wonder if foot stability is what this has all been about.

FWIW my right foot has always been inclined to roll a little during the pedal stroke while my left stays still and level, so maybe that’s linked.

Maybe the old XC style pedals don’t provide the stability I need in my late 40s and younger me was coping with it  better. Just seems odd that past big mileage weeks, long rides  or higher training loads on the same set up never produced issues, or didn’t until now. Plus M520/M540s are such a common design and I hadn’t heard of many issues related to the lack of contact area support?

Generally interested in what’s going on in the leg if a pedal + shoe combo doesn’t control or stop the side roll of the foot. The muscles and tendons that stabilise the foot and those that produce pedalling power may be in conflict.

Also, I’m open to bikefitting professional services if anyone on here does that in the SW area, not expecting free detailed advice thinking it can all be resolved online. I do generally like to work through this kind of thing to understand it (and in doing so probably cause other issues!) but enough’s enough, wanna get fit again.

TIA

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/slx-m7100/PD-ME700.html

ME700 pedal shape ^  if anyone’s interested

I suppose the rigidity of the shoes matters as well. I found in the past that a show with a sole flexible enough to walk in easily got hotspots on M520 pedals. Switched to A600s and A520s on my non MTB bikes and it felt more comfortable.

No idea how that would relate to other leg/hip problems but if it works for you it works. New pedals and shoes a lot cheaper than physio I would have thought.

Have you tried using custom insoles in your shoes? That can help a lot with alignment/stability regardless of the model of shoe.

Also, do you get the same issues with flat pedals? https://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/ I find a large platform and decent flat shoes are far more comfortable on long rides than spds, although I’m not normally pushing too hard.

Did you replace the cleats at the same time ?

(I sometimes wonder how much difference a bigger platform can make – if the shoe was genuinely in close contact, how would you ever clip in?)

((I have no actually relevant expertise))

Obviously it varies from shoe to shoe but when I have looked at wider pedals clipped into a shoe off the bike the sole only contacted the wider area in a couple of places. But I can feel the difference in use.  I assume under pedaling forces the soles of  my shoes flex and make better contact.

Have you tried using custom insoles in your shoes?

No but if that let me use lighter cheaper pedals (540s) I’d go for them. Cheers, could be worth checking out and I’d not thought about that.

Did you replace the cleats at the same time ?

(I sometimes wonder how much difference a bigger platform can make – if the shoe was genuinely in close contact, how would you ever clip in?)

Yes, new cleats, shoes and pedals. I was looking at the shoes and pedals off the bike the other day and the cleat is a flat rigid contact to an unworn or new SPD pedal, the shoe lugs are level with the bottom of the cleat so the lugs do rest against the side areas of the pedal. The greater contact width and area of the ME700s is very noticeable for foot stability so a stiffer shoe might be a similar benefit, the cleat anchors to that sole plate inside after all. These new shoes are basic Shimanos, tried as a process of elimination as much as anything. They’re stiffness grade 5 and they go up to 8 for the regular-not-pro-race level shoes.

I have size 15 feet, so I notice this kind of stuff probably a lot more than most people, and antidotally I agree that the more modern pedals with larger contact patches (its not the cage but the big flat sections on the pedal) make a huge difference, more so than insoles by a considerable multiplier.

This year I tried some sqlab mtb pedals with a longer spindle, but the actual pedal design is a much older style spd interface, without any flat bit to push against and support the foot, and they were bloody awful felt absolutely horrible with my feet having no stability at all. Which was a shame as the extra room from the longer spindle did feel good, but the lack of support outweighed that advantage by a considerable margin.

I know it’s heresy to many on here but Ive found that the additional contact area available from a Crank Brothers Candy improves my foot/pedal comfort immensly.

Just looked up the Candy as a reminder, has the same kind of contact area width that I’m getting on with on the PE700s. More compact overall though which is good, not sure about the looks of enduro pedals on a gravel bike! But for now.. who cares

Personally I find that I miss the slight movement when I swap to SPD-SL’s after a winter on M520’s.   It goes away after a few weeks, of getting used to though. I should probably look into shimming/wedging my road shoes.

I still sort of agree on the preferring a platform though. The SPD-SL’s feel a lot more efficient and direct which is why I still use them. But I hate the caged enduro pedals with a passion. I do have quite stiff shoes though.

Sounds quite familiar- I don’t get on with most Shimano shoes as ‘sock on a plank’ type footwear does not support my foot enough.
For pedals I mostly use Time MX as I like the increased float and some added stability. What I don’t like is the lack of durability and cleat retention bars digging into shoe, Shimano doesn’t have these issues at all.

As your foot completes each revolution of the cranks, it will tend to pronate/supinate (roll) slightly. Some of this is necessary, although allowing too much movement will cause mis-alignment between the foot, knee and hip. Lots of stabilising muscles will be recruited to try to stabilise this, thus potentially causing discomfort, risking injury, and definitely causing a reduction in power. Foot stability is crucial; that includes the shoe to pedal interface, the fit of the shoe and the correct arch support from the footbed (standard footbeds are always rubbish. Maybe try some Specialized BG types as an easy win). Seat height too… is that correct?

You would almost certainly benefit from a proper set-up. I’d recommend Crimson Performance at Velo Edge, although that’s in the Cheshire area. Or Cyclefit in London maybe? Any good bike fitter should be able to get your shoe/pedal/position closer to where it should be.

It might be worth moving to an SPD-SL set-up for road use (needs to be set-up correctly though) or even a few weeks on flat pedals and non-squishy shoes to reset your pedalling dynamics and technique.

Thanks Stanley, informative. A few weeks on flats as a reset is a good idea I’d not considered. Road/gravel bike saddle height is currently 788mm, 887mm inside leg and riding 170 cranks. It’s about 13mm higher than I rode a few years ago, I’m more flexible now and the formulas suggest the higher number is right. Feels fine, no hip rocking etc. I could go bach to lower setting if that may be worthwhile?
I’ve been looking up fitters in this area. Torke is not far away and I hear good things about his approach.

I’d maybe try dropping the seat a touch. The knee joint turns inwards slightly as it approaches full extension; that might cause problems higher up. Bike fitters seem to be favouring slightly lower seat heights these days than they were doing 10+ years ago.

Phil Cavell’s book “the midlife cyclist” might be useful to you. Phil Cavell is one of the original bike fitters. Also Phil Burt (previously physio and fit expert for the British team) has written a couple of books on bike fit.

Not just you. After three decades on Time pedals (latterly MX) I switched to Shimano two years ago; ME700 on the MTB, M540 on the monstercross. Much prefer the former (size 15 feet).

I have Phil Burt’s ‘Bike Fit’ book here, also downloaded a (paid) bike fit guide the other day to read more. ‘Midlife Cyclist’ sounds appropriate too.. Thanks Stanley. Will try the lowered saddle.

Sounds like we suffer the exact same symptoms! My right hip/low back area is a constant battleground of tension and twinges.

Regarding the rolling of the right foot, mine always wants to roll outward as well as heel inward (and left foot wants to heel outward, can get so bad it’s almost unclipping itself!).

If you’re anything like me (sitting a lot) then it may be your hip flexors/TFL are weak but also your psoas muscles might be imbalanced, the most reliable relief I get from the pain in my hip is to lie on a massage ball, positioned on a diagonal line between belly button and pelvic crest (sort of ‘appendix scar’ area) which I assume us releasing tension in my right Psoas or illipsoas (sp?).

I also find that consciously pulling the right foot forward a bit and trying to engage the big toe helps and seems to straighten me out on the bike. There’s a good Youtuber who does a lot of content on hip asymmetry who offers some good exercises, will post a link.

I find his presentation a little rushed and too detailed so I don’t always follow it, AND ge presents the exercises in a bit of a complex way, but the general gist seems really effective, toeing off engages the glute better, and the side lying 90 degree exercise against the wall seems very relevant to symmetry on the saddle and is reasonably easy to do at home (I still need to get a pilates ball or something, son keeps stealing his wee football back ..)

Very unfortunate video  thumbnail haha!

^ ?

Does seem we’ve had similar issues and I have found some benefits in engaging glutes more and other things related to position and core strength, but I think all that might have been doing is changing my pedalling dynamic briefly rather than addressing the cause. Whether the cause is the foot/pedal thing I’m not sure but it seems to make the difference.

My experience with longer rides is that they’re excellent for uncovering any minor problem with bike fit. What may be unnoticeable rapidly starts to make itself felt beyond fifty miles.

^ ?

That was a typo, should have been ^  :)

What may be unnoticeable rapidly starts to make itself felt beyond fifty miles.

Weird thing to me here is I was long (audax/multiday etc) on those pedals and shoes for a number of years w/o any issues – or at least not at the time, perhaps cumulative effect created the situ I’ve been in over recent years.

Yeah it is a bit strange. I think that the point that I was trying to make was that getting a professional bike fit is likely to be worthwhile as it can be very obscure issues that are causing the problem.