We're actually watching sfb morphing into Cressers before our eyes. Mark will get on the webcam and moon him in a minute… 😯 🙂

I've scanned a (non current) copy of the mag and cannot find any Shimano ads to be removed…

That did occour to me as well. Shimano themselves don't run that many ads. Certainly not enough to bring a magazine down I'd have thought, or are they capable of stopping other companies that fit their products (Orange, Specialized, Terk, say) from advertising in the mag? 🙂

I'd go so far as to say that the folk at STW towers have explained their actions and that we should probably draw a line under this and get on with our lives. When 10 speed comes out we'll just moan about mud related gearing issues and designed obsolescence anyway.

that is a naive statement. Argument justifies itself.

only if you are arguing about the same thing, rather than for the sake of it.

only if you are arguing about the same thing, rather than for the sake of it.

argument is the lifeblood of the intellect, without it you are just coasting aimlessly

argument is the lifeblood of the intellect, without it you are just coasting aimlessly

enquiry is the lifeblood of the intellect, not argument. Scrutiny is exceptionally important, as is the acceptance of the perspective of others who do not reside in your personal universe.

enquiry is the lifeblood of the intellect

enquiry is too passive, the results need to be tested in argument

as is the acceptance of the perspective of others who do not reside in your personal universe.

recognise perhaps, but not necessarily accept

I don't know why I was still reading this bloody thread, but something wonderful just happened (look at the advert, those are Shimano components)…

a well-developed intellect would accept that the people who own the website have said please don't, get over it, perhaps even realise that it doesn't really matter.

a well-developed intellect would accept that the people who own the website have said please don't, get over it, perhaps even realise that it doesn't really matter.

had they not cause to question the concept of ownership in this context or respect for freedom of speech…

enquiry is too passive, the results need to be tested in argument

You can test rigorously through enquiry without resorting to argument.

recognise perhaps, but not necessarily accept

if you cannot accept that people will have different opinions to you (and will continue to have those views regardless of what you think) then argument may well be your only refuge.

those are Shimano components)…

2011 components?

Hmmm. They can ban you, based on a self-determined ruleset. Therefore the freedom of speech is granted within confined boundaries, as determined by the owners.

simple, really.

You can test rigorously through enquiry without resorting to argument.

you might think you have but unless you present your conclusions for critical analysis (ie argument) your rigour might be misdirected

if you cannot accept that people will have different opinions to you

I meant "recognise their perspective but not necessarily accept what they think as true"

2011 components?

No, what do you take me for? Some kind of fearless investigative journalist?

I don't know why I was still reading this bloody thread, but something wonderful just happened (look at the advert, those are Shimano components)…

ah very good – I'd forgotten about online adverts – which I'm spared by being a premium member – and at first I thought those were the offending pics, but with regard to revenue, that is a Chain Reaction ad, not a Shimano one

those are Shimano components)…

2011 components?

Actually, it looks like a campy road mech. False alarm!

What's wrong with coasting aimlessly? Life would probably be much less complicated and far more enjoyable if more people tried it.

People trying to be too clever – it'll be the downfall of mankind, I tell thee 😉

What's wrong with coasting aimlessly?

Homer Simpson speaks 🙂

not that clever, I think Barnes has confused himself with his 'right to argue' semantics

think you've flogged this dead horse back to life Barnes

the horse is now definitely dead

It's not dead, it's resting!

I think Barnes has confused himself with his 'right to argue' semantics

I wish I could understand what that means…

Other web forums for arguements about biting the hand that feeds are available.
If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon, but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.
Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

I wish I could understand what that means…

I am not fresh meat 😉

The curry was lukewarm, but very welcome all the same 🙂

If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon, but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.
Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

the difference between enquiry and argument i feel : )

The curry was lukewarm, but very welcome all the same

Looks like Barnes will have to try harder next time then 😀

EDIT: Although having just clicked the 'sfb argues' tag, he's done it on about 30 threads in the past year – not bad going!

I don't criticise everything ST does, but I am alert for compromises to the forum for commercial reasons

The whole website is a commercial reason!

Chipps and I have been doing this as our day in day out, mortgage paying job for almost 10 years! There's nine people who rely on the commercial function of the website and mag to keep their livelihoods running smoothly. Everything we do is for commercial reasons! Luckily, coming up with a website that is as popular with as many mountain bikers as possible as well as the industry IS a good commercial reason to do what we do.

It also helps that it is a fantastic way to earn a living – we are all rather lucky 🙂

Other web forums for arguements about biting the hand that feeds are available.

is it not the case that we feed them ?

If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon

If ? So the matter of being in the industry's pocket is trivial ?

but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.

I see no need for rudeness, and I've been polite…

Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

it's called a discussion, not drive by opinionating! I'm always suspicious when people chime in saying "let's draw a line under it" etc It's over when it's over, not when you say it's over.

SFB – you've already stated that you only buy new parts when they wear out so why go to all the bother of creating and replying to this thread if it's unlikely it will have any bearing on you at all?

I'm always suspicious when people chime in saying "let's draw a line under it" etc It's over when it's over, not when you say it's over.

Can we just leave Simon to argue with himself now – that way he can enjoy the fact "it's not over yet" without bothering the rest of us.

I'm struggling to think of anything more to add to the discussion/argument 🙂

I'm struggling to think of anything more to add to the discussion/argument

what curry did you have? rice or bread? Pickles?

…did anyone else notice the zoofighter embargo being enacted just then? 😀 He's probably got the inside track on all of us and needs to keep it all on the down-low.

Can we just leave Simon to argue with himself now

if only it were that easy, but it's like sex, for full pleasure you need company :o)

The whole website is a commercial reason!

…etc…

It also helps that it is a fantastic way to earn a living – we are all rather lucky

hmmm, doesn't that sound a little disingenuous? "It's all just for the money and oooops, but btw it's great fun" 🙂

How is that disingenuous?
It's very true. It's fun earning money this way. Is it wrong to enjoy the way we earn a living? Is it somehow meant to be an inverse relationship and if it's fun we should earn less?

Simon, what's your claim to fame/list of achievements?

I want to know what the benchmark is when I decide to stop coasting aimlessly and really focus like you.

disingenuous in that if you were only interested in the money you could have been robbing banks or running a chip shop when in fact you do it because it's something you love and feel strongly about. The money is incidental to that, you just happen to need some to live and keep doing it.

Simon, what's your claim to fame/list of achievements?

I have none, and I claimed argument as fuel to the intellect, not celebrity!

The money is far from incidental. Now who is being disingenuous?

🙂