Spongebob – the real world.

If you look at total government spend divided by population its the south east that are the subsidy junkies.

The oil belongs to Scotland but is used as a part of Westminster income. If that oil money went to Scotland and all tax receipts stayed in England and in Scotland, Scotland would be significantly better off. Full fiscal autonomy for Scotland would make it richer. scotland also supplies electricity to England.

TJ all joking aside what makes you believe that the SNP aren’t anti-English?

BTW what happened to the ‘Iceland is a great example of how Scotland will become a financial powerhouse’ argument that seemed very popular amongst certain posters a year back?

dimwitted Englishman confuses left of centre SNP with neo fascist BNP.

enfht – what makes you think that the SNP is anti-English?
– are you such a xenophobe that you believe that just because a coiuntry would prefer self-determination that you think that means that it is anti-you? that’s a bit insecure, no?
– do you read the daily mail and believe it?
– did you watch braveheart and think it was some form of documentary?

I am a Scot, I vote SNP. I am not anti-Emglish and would not vote for any party that is anti-any ethnic group

Experience. statements from the SNP hierarchy and so on. I am English born with an english accent and have been on the wrong side of anti english sentiment many times but there is simply no anti english sentiment in the policies of the SNP. There probably is from some individuals but it simply is not policy nor an undercurrent fro the party.

Independence is couched in terms of “making our own way” rather than “freedom from the oppressors”

They use phrases like ” the people of Scotland” rather than “the scots” The people of scotland include folk like me who are not scots but who live here.

I can’t find the speeches or definitions on the rather crappy SNP website

ianMunro – probably the same as what happened to the “Celtic Tiger – a model for Scotland’s economy” posters.

TJ all joking aside what makes you believe that the SNP aren’t anti-English?

What makes you believe they are?

In case you hadn’t noticed Scottish Government is SNP and I haven’t seen any signs of forced deportation and work camps.

ianMunro – probably the same as what happened to the “Celtic Tiger – a model for Scotland’s economy” posters.

The oil belongs to Scotland but is used as a part of Westminster income. If that oil money went to Scotland and all tax receipts stayed in England and in Scotland, Scotland would be significantly better off

Genuine questions. For how long ? What is the proposed major income for Scotland once gas and oil have been exhausted ?

OK I think I stand corrected, but I have been raised in England where ANY sniff of nationalism is deemed xenophobic and hateful. It’s amazing what years of leftist brainwashing can do. 😀

does it affect the ability to spell?

It’s called ‘nationalism’, and it is often (but not always) xenophobic and hateful – certainly in the case of the BNP, however they try to present themselves these days.

Trail monkey. Independence would allow Scotland to set fiscal policy to suit rather than having to accept fiscal policy to suit England (which is bound to happen as the economy is bigger) I think the oil while shinking would still be a significant boost to scotland economy for decades to come

there are several strands to this such as alterations to business taxes, investment of the oil revenues rather than using it as current spending ( as Norway) Setting interest rates to suit ( over the last ten years Scotland would have been better off with the Euro interest rate which has been a point lower.

The there is renewables – the theory is that Scotland is well placed to be a world leader in renewables – this has been badly hampered by lack of investment. The simple fact of having a smaller more flexible economy and one that is not subject to currency speculation would help – the Euro is the “elephant in the room 🙂

It is no sure thing – but I believe it would work.

Genuine questions. For how long ? What is the proposed major income for Scotland once gas and oil have been exhausted ?

Shortbread, porridge oats, tartan hankies.

It says a lot when people pick you up on your typos rather than countering the argument. Now I know what horse riders feel like sitting up there 😆

Tartan hankies, do they really exist? They’re the stuff of legends down here.

See you jimmy hats will be a big export Item

crikey, enfht, you’re scarily narrow minded and quite xenophobic really, aren’t you.

Seeing as the Britiwh parliament has currently a scottish PM and scottish Chancelor, surely fiscal policy is already being set for Scotland….by the Scottish.

Mr K – I think that is a bit unfair – see his post above.

Trail monkey. Independence would allow Scotland to set fiscal policy to suit rather than having to accept fiscal policy to suit England (which is bound to happen as the economy is bigger)

This always strikes me a bit of a non starter. Scotland’s population is roughly 5 million, and England’s is roughly 10 times greater than that. To suggest that UK government is able to set a policy that manages to specifically favour all the disperate regions within England and the expense of Scotland seems unrealistic, just as it seems unrealistic to assume that a single fiscal policy set by a Scotish government will be of equal benfit to those in Scotland.
Argueing that Scotland should become independant for finicial gain is a red-herring, canard, whatever you want to call it, based on people’s greed. Scotland should become independent because it doesn’t want to be ruled by another country and we’ll take the consequences whatever they may be. Anything else and you end up implying you don’t mind being servants providing the salary is ok 🙂

over the last ten years Scotland would have been better off with the Euro interest rate which has been a point lower.

That’s not working out too well for Ireland at the moment.

I would like the West Country to split from the UK and be ruled by the Smelly Welly Party, because we are the net producers of cheese, bovine diseases, cider, dodgy rural accents and squinty-eyed people.

I claim: Carnwall, Devum, Zummerzet, Glaster-shire, Darzet and Wiltshire.
But we need to create a special enclave for the unruly Cornish with a big wall to keep them in. And I’m only including “marginal” Wiltshire because we want Stonehenge.

Anyone who doesn’t understand the meaning of the term “gert lush” will be immediately deported to the Bristol Channel.

Ian – I believe Scotland would be better off independent rather than scotland should be independent because it would be richer. good point well made tho.

The fact that Scotland could have fiscal policies to suit Scotland which might mean difference to the UK fiscal policy is true I believe. UK fiscal policy will always be set to suit the average which as the english economy is much bigger means that it might not always suit scotland.

It says a lot when people pick you up on your typos rather than countering the argument

i didn’t need to counter your argument – “I think I stand corrected”

and you went back and corrected the typos for me. how nice of you. 😆

Those who are arguing that Scotland subsidises England miss two key points:

1. Scotland did not pay for the establishment of an oil and gas industry in the North Sea.

2. Scotland was bailed out by England when the countries were united politically. With 300 years’ worth of interest, that’ll be quite a tidy sum.

This is not an anti-Scotland post. If they want independence, good luck to them.

Can we take the billions of £ of oil money back then – 30 yrs worth of that. Anyway the treaty of union and stuff was all a stitch up anyway – I think the Scots should complain to Strasbourg about illegal occupation – to say nowt of war crimes 🙂

The Scottish aristocracy had a jolly good and profitable time in the English/British empire, it wasn’t a stitch up for the Scotch ruling classes.

Where is rudeboy? – Freedom for Tooting! (or tooting???)

I better contribute here as I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with TJ which doesn’t happen very often.

Just now the North Sea oil revenues roughly balance the subsidy given to Scotland (yes TJ is right about London being an even greater subsidy junkie than Scotland). If an independent Scotland were allowed to keep the declining oil revenue this would give them breathing space to try to find a replacement source of income. As TJ says its not a sure thing but if my fellow countrymen can recover their entrepreneurial flair and invention and become less dependent on the state then it could work.

Anyway the treaty of union and stuff was all a stitch up anyway

It’s not England’s fault Scotland went bust investing all its money in some fantastical scheme in Panama…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Scheme

Out of curiosity, who says an independent Scotland would be entitled to anything to do with the North Sea?
I thought historically it (the parts nearest the UK) has been defended and owned by England and then the UK?

International law. When the oil was discovered the international body that sorts out these things laid out the boundaries. Because Scotland has a separate legal system it needed to be done as Norway / Scotland / England not as UK. Its very clear in law.

…and you still owe the Italians for that wall they built….

…

Porterclugh – errrrmmmm – let me think a moment. Must be some excuse. Ummmmmm – I know – it was a result of Scotland trying to retain its trad trade links that were threatened by the imperialist hegemony of the English. Anyway they made us do it then ran away. ‘Snot fair

International law. When the oil was discovered the international body that sorts out these things laid out the boundaries. Because Scotland has a separate legal system it needed to be done as Norway / Scotland / England not as UK. Its very clear in law.

Got a link to that?

Ultimately it is a fair bet that whatever settlement you get on independence will be blamed in perpetuity for almost anything goes wrong after independence.

And indeed, a smart nationalist politician would ensure that he could portray the independence settlement as unfair.

Afterall, if, as TJ has sometimes excitably suggested, Scotland got Trident, the oil, repayment of hundreds of year’s worth of sporran taxes, Berwick-upon-Tweed, the regimental pipe band of the Black Watch and didn’t have to take Gordon Brown back then anything which went wrong subsequently would appear to be Alex Salmond’s fault.

🙂

Today tartan may be mostly associated with Scotland, however the earliest evidence of tartan is found far afield from the British Isles. According to the textile historian E. J. W. Barber, the Hallstatt culture, which flourished between 100 BC to 400 BC, produced tartan-like textiles, some of which were recently discovered, remarkably preserved in Salzburg, Austria.[4] Also, textile analysis of fabric from Indo-European Tocharian graves in Western China has shown it to be similar to the Iron Age Hallstatt culture of central Europe.[12] Tartan-like leggings were found on the “Cherchen Man”, a 3, 000 year-old mummy, found in the Taklamakan Desert in western China (see Tarim mummies).[13] Similar finds have been found in central Europe and Scandinavia.[5] The earliest documented tartan in Britain, known as the Falkirk tartan, dates from the 3rd century AD. It was uncovered at Falkirk in Stirlingshire, Scotland, about 400 metres north-west of the Antonine Wall. The fragment was stuffed into the mouth of the earthenware pot containing almost 2, 000 Roman coins. The Falkirk tartan is simple check design, of natural light and dark wool. Early forms of tartan such as this are thought to have been invented in pre-Roman times, and would have been popular among the inhabitants of the northern Roman provinces.[14][15]

It would appear that some reparations of a fiscal kind may be in order for the appropriation of certain textile material too…

So TJ, why do we have to pay for Scotish people’s college tuition fees, prescriptions, hospital parking, carehomes for the elderly etc etc?

The public spending per head of population in Scotland exceeds that of the English by at least £2200 per annum.

Look at this article from 2005. News.scotsman.com

Anyone got the latest figures? Don’t kid me that this figure has fallen.

I am in no doubt that the dwindling oil and gas reserves that lie miles off the coast of Scotland would not sustain her for very long.

Was it Scotish companies that found this resource and made extraction viable, or was it a British effort? Who funded it? Remember, we are a union of British people! And haven’t the people of the east coast of Scotland benefitted hugely from this industry already? I didn’t see any oil industry jobs on offer round my way!

You insinuate that everyone outside Scotland has benefitted dispropotionatly more than the Scots. It’s like you think the English are indebted to Scotland. Are you suggesting that these subsidies are fair and proper recompense, purely because we discovered oil and gas off the the coast of Scotland without handing all the profits over to the Scots? This is despite the British government’s investment of UK tax payer’s money. I think this idea is quite unreasonable!

If we have all profitted from oil and gas as you imply, why aren’t the English getting the same freebies which you now enjoy? What about the English who live in neglected parts of the UK? Or those who simply haven’t profitted contrary to how you surmise? The fact is that public spending north of the border has always been high compared to Scotland’s productivity.

In case you hadn’t noticed, the heavily populated South East generates a large proportion of the country’s GDP. So significant public spending is necessary and justifiable, but the ratio of spending to earnings is lower than in other parts of the country.

I think there should be an English assembly! That way we English people would have our interests met. As it stands, Ireland, Scotland ands Wales get their say, but the English don’t.

Having disproportionately high public spending and your own parliament in Scotland means the English are disadvantaged.

I struggle to understand how can any fair minded person can argue that this is a good thing for the United Kingdom!