Serious RTA Accident Evidence

erm….

Its a dashcam we purchased because my young daughter was going to be learning to drive in it but subsequently got her own car.  The dashcam was put in one evening in 5 mins and forgotten about.

Still doesnt stack up IMO, Id be telling the wife if I put a camera in her car, or mine.

If it only took 5 mins to install there must be leads going to cigarette lights/usb ports. Maybe the Mrs doesnt open her eyes when she drives?

Police seized mine last year when a HGV decided to change lanes and write my car off. The Police were right behind me at the time too.

It seems people don’t read threads before posting stuff like this! (Meaning Funkydunc’s post). It’s well explained – she helped with the installation and forgot about it! The question was about the police and the evidence not why the camera was there…

I am not going back and copying/pasting every bit for you funkydunk.  Everything i say here is written earlier in the thread

The dashcam was purchased for my daughter learning to drive.

I fitted it, with the help of my wife one night months ago.  She in fact used her mobile phone light to help me see so 100% witnessed it.  I dont have secrets from her and i dont have to check on her.  30 years together and she does exactly what she wants.

My daughter purchased her own car and noone gave the dashcam a second thought until my wife called me having witnessed the accident and i suggested she checks the dashcam i fitted to her car (Poor choice of words)

As i said to theotherjonv – Its a fitcamX which if you have a deek is 100% wired in to original wiring and does in fact take someone with a little knowledge 5 mins to install with zero wires showing etc.

Put your suspicious mind to rest please.

The police will always want the original evidence, if possible, because it’s the best evidence.

It’ll depend on the incident but proportionality is key; had your wife been sitting in a lane of traffic and the car in the adjacent lane went through a red light with no other consequences then nobody would have bothered her (probably).

This is a guide for more serious collisions, “consider the forensic seizure of clothing and/or property (including mobile telephones) at an early stage” and “Identifying and recovering footage from sources of CCTV (public, private and domestic systems) that may help to identify suspect(s) and witnesses” https://www.college.police.uk/app/roads-policing/investigation-fatal-and-serious-injury-road-collisions

I always keep a spare micro-SD card in the car so that I can get home with continuous video cover.

Caher – did you have any right to get it back or at least have a copy just in case you ever needed to speak to a lawyer etc about the incident.  It just feels like you should at least be able to protect yourself from false accusations using your own evidence if needed.

I always keep a spare micro-SD card in the car so that I can get home with continuous video cover.

I read that 2 ways.

You keep a spare sd card in case the original one gets full.  If so they hold months & months of video and overwrite the oldest files so surely that isnt an issue.

Or you are worried about similar to my wifes situation and you worry about them taking your sd card.

Both seem quite extreme.

Caher – did you have any right to get it back or at least have a copy just in case you ever needed to speak to a lawyer etc about the incident. It just feels like you should at least be able to protect yourself from false accusations using your own evidence if needed.

IME working copies will be made so that nobody loses the original, e.g. through the suspect eating it during interview. You should be able to get a copy, but I’m a little out of date now

Caher – did you have any right to get it back or at least have a copy just in case you ever needed to speak to a lawyer etc about the incident.  It just feels like you should at least be able to protect yourself from false accusations using your own evidence if needed.

That comes much later on, once you and MrsHobo are arrested and charged then they have a duty to disclose the evidence to you before the trial including anything that might undermine their case.

Obviously there won’t be any evidence to undermine their case due to the lefty civil services war on innocent motorists 😉

BigJohn – I think you might have a point.  My daughter went out the next morning with her brother to work and she drove.  I was a little worried it may have effected her.  My wife is definatly the sort who would be effected if she watched it again.  She did say having to drive another hour home didnt give her time to dwell on things.

I’m just glad they got home in 1 piece.  I did spend a couple of hours cleaning her car on sunday checking if all the bits of motorbike trim that hit the car hadnt damaged it but she/we got off lightly.

thisisnotaspoon –  i cant work out if you are joking or not.  Why would we be arrested.

I read that 2 ways.

You keep a spare sd card in case the original one gets full. If so they hold months & months of video and overwrite the oldest files so surely that isnt an issue.

That isn’t the issue. It loops overwriting older files

Or you are worried about similar to my wifes situation and you worry about them taking your sd card.

Both seem quite extreme.

“Worried” is extreme. Practical is more where I am and they take up minimal space and less effort

You won’t see the card again, and it is right that they took it as evidence. When my club mate died hitting a pothole in 2016, I was right next to him and my rear-facing Fly 6 recorded everything. The police took the camera and put it in a bag as evidence at the scene. Several months later  the camera was returned without the card. I did not view the video until the inquest, where I was a witness. Pleasingly (or not) the images I kept seeing flashing across my brain were the same as those on the video, and my recollection and witness statement were accurate. I don’t want the card back.

Just on the subject of being monitored without knowing it, some cars ECU record speed / acceleration even GPS and have been know to be used by the police in evidence.

Might just go and purchase another SD card.  Seems like we wont be getting it back.

Don’t forget to get written permission in triplicate from your wife.

Just on the subject of being monitored without knowing it, some cars ECU record speed / acceleration even GPS and have been know to be used by the police in evidence.

Our fleet of company vans are fitted with trackers that record everything. Speed, excessive acceleration and braking, hard cornering, the full shebang.
If the cops got a hold of the monthly data report they could wipe out the entire business by taking the licences away from 80% of the drivers.

Caher – did you have any right to get it back or at least have a copy just in case you ever needed to speak to a lawyer etc about the incident. It just feels like you should at least be able to protect yourself from false accusations using your own evidence if needed.

To be honest I was more worried about my car and the fact I could have been seriously injured. They can keep it I’ve got a spare SD card.

I got back a lot more than I thought my car was worth and never heard another word.

thisisnotaspoon –  i cant work out if you are joking or not.  Why would we be arrested.

I was joking.  I doubt anyone in the police has the time or inclination to sit through months of dashcam footage of your driving looking for potential speeding and red light jumping just for the sake of it.

The scarier thing when I worked on 24H in PC were the sheer number of interviews that began with “can you explain these images on your hard drive / phone “.  So they do scan stuff, but not for traffic offences.

If the cops got a hold of the monthly data report they could wipe out the entire business by taking the licences away from 80% of the drivers.

We get pretty stern warnings from HR about infringements in our co cars, not heard of anyone being dismissed yet but it does temper ones driving for sure.

It sounds like the officer perceived consent on the part of your wife to taking the sd card. If she’d said no at the outset they’d then have to get some form of legal authority to seize it.

They don’t have to caution your wife as they have no suspicion she has committed any offence, she is just a witness.

Should be a 24 hour ban for posting AI text…

Amen to that.

I dont have an issue with them doing it but what if there was something on that card that incriminated my wife

Is deliberately belching diesel smoke and fumes into the faces of cyclists an offence ?

Hmmm

Presumably the OPs real worry is that some of HIS bad driving is on the dashcam!  Did he not realize that risk when he installed it?  Common sense says they won’t pursue anything unrelated as otherwise people would be reluctant to hand over footage and they need to go to the trouble of getting warrants etc.

im not sure they have the “power” to seize it immediately but given most people install a dash cam to be useful in precisely this situation I’m not sure they will ever get much resistance from genuine witnesses.  It’s certainly far better seized before a witness or her husband tampers with the footage by trying to be “helpful” and copy just the relevant part – of posts the nasty bit on line.  So I think they 100% did the right thing.  If you were to be prosecuted for your driving I’m sure your lawyer would try to argue this footage was secured inappropriately and could not be used.  They may or may not succeed.

as to whether you ever see the card again – could be over a year before any trial and they will keep the original that long in case there is a dispute

im not sure they have the “power” to seize it immediately but given most people install a dash cam to be useful in precisely this situation I’m not sure they will ever get much resistance from genuine witnesses. It’s certainly far better seized before a witness or her husband tampers with the footage by trying to be “helpful” and copy just the relevant part – of posts the nasty bit on line. So I think they 100% did the right thing.

It’s been a (long) while but I think that PACE covers it https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/19 The video loop-recording over “the evidence” if left until later would destroy it.

A car is “premises” (s23 PACE) so the only question is that of “lawfully on”, which will depend on circumstances on the day

It’s better to ask for co-operation from a witness that you might need to get more detail and statements from later than to go in with all legal guns blazing, but not everyone is helpful. Some even lie to the police 🫢

Might just go and purchase another SD card. Seems like we wont be getting it back.

Carry a spare in the car 😉

Poly, why so aggressive?  Cannot fathom your reasoning for it but i will try to answer your assumptions with some calm answers.

Presumably the OPs real worry is that some of HIS bad driving is on the dashcam!

How you have reached this presumption i have no idea.  I have already, repeatedly said the car belongs to my wife.  I hardly ever drive it unless there is an emergency.  Why would you also say that i drive poorly?  Have i given any indication about any of my driving styles?  In fact as ive gotten older my cars have gotten faster and faster but my driving style has gotten slower and slower.  I dont really like driving these days much.

Did he not realize that risk when he installed it?

I’m not stupid Poly.  Of course i realize a dashcam can work in giving evidence on both sides of the steering wheel.

Common sense says they won’t pursue anything unrelated as otherwise people would be reluctant to hand over footage and they need to go to the trouble of getting warrants etc.

Others, including yourself have taken this tack, however i have never been bothered about this.  My wife had zero involvement in the accident and is a good safe driver in general.  If you look back and find me worrying about it, i cant think of any.

im not sure they have the “power” to seize it immediately but given most people install a dash cam to be useful in precisely this situation I’m not sure they will ever get much resistance from genuine witnesses. 

Ahh, something constructive

It’s certainly far better seized before a witness or her husband tampers with the footage by trying to be “helpful” and copy just the relevant part – of posts the nasty bit on line. 

And back to being nasty to someone you dont know, has not aimed any comments towards you but somehow deserves to be boxed off.

So I think they 100% did the right thing.  If you were to be prosecuted for your driving I’m sure your lawyer would try to argue this footage was secured inappropriately and could not be used.  They may or may not succeed.

Once more, no idea what my driving has anything to do with this thread but I dont have much interest in spirited driving these days.

as to whether you ever see the card again – could be over a year before any trial and they will keep the original that long in case there is a dispute

Finish off with some reasonable input.

Thanks for starting my day off nicely Poly.  Hope you have a good one too

TheLittlestHobo – I hope your daughter and wife are alright. What a nasty thing to witness.

Thanks Bunnyhop.  I wasnt sure to begin with as they got home and were pretty shook up.  She is dreading anyone calling her up to give any details as she starts questioning what she remembers is correct (One of the things the footage may have helped with).

Anyhow, they seem fine thanks for asking.

One of the things the footage may have helped with

If their experience was anything like mine, they probably won’t need the footage. I also hope they are both OK. Have them write down what they recall now as an aide memoir. It can only help, send it by email to yourself.

How would she incriminate herself as a witness to the collision?

Thats not a bad shout TiRED.  I must admit from what they described it isnt going to be a case of needing anything other than the dash footage.

I guess all you people telling him off for not telling the wife (who knew anyway but had forgotten) also tell their wives every time they spend money on biking…??😀

Poly, why so aggressive?  Cannot fathom your reasoning for it but i will try to answer your assumptions with some calm answers.

@littlesthobo – I’d suggest you take a deep breath and consider how your OP comes across before getting ratty at people who have responded.  Your OP has an overtone that you think the police either acted improperly in investigating a serious accident or that your wife has accidentally done something to incriminate herself.  Now I will confess to both having put two and two together to make five and having a little gentle humour – that perhaps your real fear wasn’t that you were worried that she had incriminated herself but rather that you were worried she’d incriminated you.  if your wife is as good a driver as you say, and your driving is impeccable too, and you almost never drive that car anyway what exactly was your concern?   Your OP seems surprised that they could take this footage so I’m not sure you really had thought about the fact it could work for you as well as against you (I certainly don’t think its generally understood by dashcam users – because as far as i can see they are visibly in use by a lot of people who are catching incriminating evidence of their own driving almost every day).

Others, including yourself have taken this tack, however i have never been bothered about this.  My wife had zero involvement in the accident and is a good safe driver in general.  If you look back and find me worrying about it, i cant think of any.

Its almost like you don’t recall writing your OP, selected parts below as to why people go the impression you thought the acted

My question is about how the police took the evidence.  They asked if she had a dashcam and she said yes.  They told her they needed to take the SD card for evidence and just went and removed the card.
Are they allowed to do this?
what if there was something on that card that incriminated my wife.
I wondered if they would have a process to inform us that we were handing over evidence that may self incriminate a bit like being read your rights when being arrested.
Maybe i am reading too much into it

(I put the us in bold to hightlight the bits that seemed to imply YOU rather that YOUR wife were concerned what else was on the vide0)

And back to being nasty to someone you dont know, has not aimed any comments towards you but somehow deserves to be boxed off.

I think you are missing the points.  1. If you copy/edit the video and screw it up you lose them potentially important evidence; 2. simply having edited or modified the video might see the defence argue it should not be admissable, or at the very least see you sitting around court for a day waiting to give your own evidence as to what you did/did not remove and why (I assume the situation is similar in England – that a video of itself is not automatically evidence and needs either a witness to speak to it or the parties to agree it); 3. the cops don’t know you either.  I’m not suggesting that YOU would take the video and post it online – I’m saying that there’s a lot if idiots in the world who would, and the cops have no way to know if you are one of them are not.

Once more, no idea what my driving has anything to do with this thread but I dont have much interest in spirited driving these days.

Whether its your driving, your wife’s driving, some other illegal activity that the video incriminates you with etc – you’ve missed the point again.  If the video incriminates you about something other than it was seized for your lawyers will earn their money by arguing about its admissibility.  The outcome of that is not clear cut, and pivots on the facts and circumstances.

Thanks for starting my day off nicely Poly.  Hope you have a good one too

Your thanks don’t seem very sincere.  The answers to the questions you posed in the OP were essentially all there even if you didn’t like how they were delivered.  The only point I didn’t cover was the PACE issue which grants them the power to seize it without a warrant; sorry for not being up-to-speed on English legislation.

Thats not a bad shout TiRED.  I must admit from what they described it isnt going to be a case of needing anything other than the dash footage.

It may well be so clear cut that it never gets to a trial but if it were to get there:

1. Its not unheard of for the police / prosecutor to be unable to find the SD card / get it to play in court!

2. For the defence to argue about its admissibility for various technical reasons.

3. For the defence to argue it shows something other that you think it does!

4. For the critical second where the wrong doing happened to be obscured by another vehicle etc

So it is quite possible that she will still need to appear as a witness even if the dashcam is damning for the other driver.  TiRED’s advice is good.  Did the police take a statement at the scene?  If they didn’t his advice can be particularly helpful – becuase it can be weeks later before they finally send someone to get a statement and (a) your memory may fade (b) the defence may argue that it would have faded!  Its also useful to have a clear coherent version of events to give to the cops – some are better at others at turning a rambling witness into something the court will understand, but in those cases statements can come across as though they were created by the cops (when they use language that your wife wouldnt normally) and that at least partially undermines the statement.

If she has (near) “contemperaneous” notes, and she is called as a witness she should offer to consult them when in the witness box (its easier if she has a printed copy in her handbag than needing to produce on the phone).   If she has not given a statement yet she should mention she took notes XXX hrs after.

She may also find writing it out is actually helpful for closure and moving on.

Have a nice day Poly

Just to add: as well as a spare SD card mine’s backed up to my personal cloud. Great for a rainy Sunday afternoons entertainment.

Caher we dont really have much to review, truth be told.  We both tend to go from A-B without any drama.  Thats why this shook us up a little.  Its also why my wife honestly forgot she had a dashcam and why i reminded her (My wording was truly terrible of course) because we are the kind of people who definitely want to help.

I tried to begin the post with a bit about not accusing etc because i was just interested in how the police approach taking evidence/dashcam footage but of course this hasnt come across too well for some.  I have had some informed answers so thats STW done its job.  I was interested to know in general how they approach it if someone had something on their dashcam that incriminated themselves and felt comfortable enough to ask on a situation where there was zero involvement.  Again a mistake.

How long will this time and effort impediment remain? I’m pretty sure somebody somewhere will be working on ML systems for identifying likely offences in dashing footage right now, and initial analysis will be entirely automatic. You could feed in months of video and potentially very quickly get a list of itemised footage of speeding, red light infringements, dodgy overtakes and so on.
Lets hope so, I hope all vehicles will be required to have such a camera fitted and working before they can be driven, might encourage saome road users to improve their standards. If you choose not to install a dashcam in case it reveals that when driving you do not always obey the law then perhaps you need to have a good hard think

I don’t have a dashcam fitted, I did buy one some years ago, but when I was driving for BCA, and went to fit it, my team leader told me to stop pissing around, because my job was time critical and I couldn’t afford to fanny around trying to fit the bloody thing into every vehicle I drove, often three different vehicles a day. As I’m not doing even a tenth of the mileage I was doing back then, I really can’t be arsed to spend the money.

And you need to mind your own business as to whether people fit them or not, it’s got sod-all to do with you.