Self driving cars

 I question car manufacturers ability to implement systems when something as simple as infotainment systems are so buggy.

Different teams, different processes, different criteria, different levels of testing, different levels of regulation, different platform, different hardware – in fact, the only thing that’s the same is that it’s some form of program running on some form of silicon processor. Everything else is different.

Surely with all these AI robots on the way you could make *any* car autonomous by simply telling the robot to drive the car.

Some of you need to change the way you think about them as they are brilliant

I ‘m sure they are brilliant and will only get better… like cars are getting better.  But that’s the problem.  I know that I’m wasting my breath and that there is so much inertia in the car and tech industries that the progress is unstoppable.

But… my point is that that this will be a new level of motornormaitivity the like of which we have yet to see. And if autonomous vehicles are the answer we have got the question wrong.

AVs will continue to improve but will still have ‘requirements’ that planners and policy makers will strive to accommodate.  They do that now with cars which get prioritised over everything else… to the detriment of so many aspects of our lives.  Their needs will dominate in decision making; public transport and active travel will be remain an afterthought. Our urban planners will design streets where AVs will work… streets where pedestrians and cyclists will remain at a disadvantage.  Governments will submit to the will of large corporations who will make lots of money from the adoption of AVs.

This is a conspiracy theory/technology fear thread.

I’m not sure it is.  I don’t think that the rise of self driving cars is occurring as a result of any conspiracy.  I think it’s due to a combination of technological advances and the fact that AVs will make money.  We know that the motor industry has prevailed for decades and cars have shaped our settlements in a way that can’t be easily undone.  That happened because there was cash to be made,  but it wasn’t the only way that towns and cities could have been organised and it wasn’t the best way.

As I say, I am wasting my time saying this but if the rise of self driving cars was replaced with investment in smart integrated transport systems where public and active travel was made the overriding priority and cars, self driving or otherwise, were heavily regulated and treated as the transport choice of last resort… I think our urban areas would be healthier, happier and more sustainable.

I’m in Scottsdale at the moment and waymo driverless cars are everywhere. Some of you need to change the way you think about them as they are brilliant. They are based on a jaguar I pace with spinning radars on the roof,rear and front bumpers and the side doors

We were outside our hotel when one came to drop a passenger off and we stood Infront of the car to see what happened and it would not drive off untill we moved.

Gosh! well I’m convinced. I take it all back, the Tech Bro’s are definitely not treating the real world like their own wide open test lab.

Hang on, there’s two things in play here.  One is the luxury feature of having your car drive itself, which is fun and all but no big deal. The other is having fully autonomous cars that can take you around the place, and you don’t need to own it.  But, you’ll say, silly billy – that’s just a taxi – well kind of, but taxis need to be driven by drivers who have families to feed and so on, which means it is prohibitively expensive to use them all the time.  There is the possibility of fully autonomous cars improving personal transport and linking it better with mass transit.  Now this needs a lot more than just self-driving car tech, but it won’t happen without it so someone’s got to develop it.

Plus when self driving works properly, lives will be saved, so there’s that.

* Obviously some will say that we need humans to drive taxis so that they won’t end up unemployed, but that’s not really a risk as long as it happens relatively slowly – there are plenty of other jobs that need doing.  We won’t run out.  Paying people to do a job that can be done by a computer just for the sake of paying them isn’t a great way to run a productive economy IMO.

I honestly don’t care about the imaginary future ownership/rental/private hire models, that’s just how the someone else (with disgusting amounts of hoarded wealth) is going to try and make (even more disproportionate) profits from people’s general need for transport. The “silly fun” that’s “no big deal” is just novelty that is used to push an idea that in the long run won’t benefit most people and novelty tends to wear off. As far as I can see all the tech Bro’s do is reinvent things that already work but with a touchscreen, crippling software issues and a higher price tag.

You are of course right ultimately the Elon’s of this world do want to reinvent the Taxi without the expensive meatsack behind the wheel, which is fine I guess we should start getting used to the idea of tech-redundancy… All of us.

Of course deleting the human OS from taxis is intended more so the Billionaire Tech-tosspot class don’t have to deal with paying other sweaty humans for their labour, I’m still not sure why rich people should get to dictate such things, or indeed be allowed to fellate and fund their preferred Rapist/Liar/Manchild into office just so they can have an easier time with regulators (who’s primary function is ensuring public safety not profitability). But it seems I’m in the minority and the world is generally more happy to embrace a new tech-oligarchy cos it means  cool phones and Jonny cabs…

The idea that FSD cars only need to be 1% less deadly to be a worthwhile endeavour is horseshit the “Tech” will never be infallible it will encounter unfamiliar situations that exceed it’s programming, it will continue to make new and more novel mistakes than the meat based alternative would have and accountability for such things will inevitably become fuzzy. You’re just exchanging one set of safety risks for a whole host of others that are still not fully understood. We will end up slowly redesigning our towns and cities for the convenience of yet another piece of transport technology, at public expense, mostly so that private capital can extract the benefits…

It just feels like a huge waste of resources, the next internet bubble, massive overvaluing of those Jags with LIDAR glued on charging around cities like San Francisco where the money, innovation and effort could be better expended addressing homelessness, or dealing with climate change more mundane but very pressing problems… The funny thing is I’ve been to SF and didn’t really fancying driving, thus I discovered that their public transport system is actually pretty good.

If FSD lets the Car industry drag on for another 20 years great, stick another £10k on the price of a car so all the autonomous doodads and gizmos can be bolted on only for the old duffers that can actually afford them to turn it all off anyway. Humanity is doomed…

Of course deleting the human OS from taxis is intended more so the Billionaire Tech-tosspot class don’t have to deal with paying other sweaty humans for their labour

I dunno, a taxi driven by computer can only be safer than the current crop of taxi drivers who have seventeen phones scattered around the steering wheel, the seat so low they can’t see out anyway, a total disregard for any road laws or driving standards, an internal sat nav that instinctively knows the best traffic jam to sit in, a pathological dislike for vulnerable road users, and an attitude that regular maintenance and testing is below them.

You are of course right ultimately the Elon’s of this world do want to reinvent the Taxi without the expensive meatsack behind the wheel, which is fine I guess we should start getting used to the idea of <em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-border-spacing-x: 0; –tw-border-spacing-y: 0; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246/0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’;”>tech-redundancy

Jobs will become redundant, as has been happening since the start of the industrial revolution, but the last 200 years should demonstrate to you that people don’t become redundant.  Were you all upset about filing clerks  becoming redundant once electronic databases were invented?  No, because it meant that people doing productive work could get the information they needed immediately instead of having to wait a few hours.  It’s not a zero sum game, it is possible for both sides to win.

I hate taking taxis. Most of them drive badly, they’re too hot and they’re really expensive.  So yes whilst tech bro billionaires will make money, the travelling public will also get a better service IMO at the same time.

It just feels like a huge waste of resources, the next internet bubble, massive overvaluing of those Jags with LIDAR glued on charging around cities like San Francisco where the money, innovation and effort could be better expended addressing homelessness, or dealing with climate change more mundane but very pressing problems

Sure, much of what we do is a waste of resources (probably more so than that) but that’s the system we have and changing that is a far harder problem than working out the difference between a wheelie bin and a cyclist.

@Flaperon I once got an official taxi at Cardiff Central and the driver had his phone resting on the dash in front of the instruments and he was watching telly.

Meanwhile the simple cheap Stuff That Works like trams and buses gets ignored

I don’t think those things are being ignored, more a case of overlooked as the big financial wins for the transport industry are still centered on personal cars.

It needs a fundamental, mental shift in people’s heads and politicians heads.    Lots of people will spend £10k or even £15k a year on owning/leasing, fuelling and insuring a car.  But **** me, you mention taxing them another £500 in order to start to provide better public services, inc public transport, and the right wing meeejah go bonkers and all the bleating sheeple are up in arms.

Oh dear, a sure sign someone has lost the plot when they start calling people they disagree with Sheeple.

Self Driving cars are an expensive distraction from the real and obvious way forward

https://theconversation.com/im-a-neuroscientist-who-taught-rats-to-drive-their-joy-suggests-how-anticipating-fun-can-enrich-human-life-239029

In fairness, public transport is quite difficult to get right. You need to build your city around the concept right from the start – which we used to do, then from the 60s onwards we gave up.  This was a major blunder on the UK’s part.

The big issue that going back is incredibly expensive and unpopular.  Near me, they wanted to demolish a nondescript 90s build house in a large development full of thousands of the damn things so that they could provide walking and cycling access to another estate they are building and provide a joined-up walking/cycling route which I have to say was badly needed. The local residents kicked up a massive fuss as if their way of life was being persecuted and their campaign was based on all sorts of bollocks. Fortunately, they failed, and the house has gone.  That was ONE single house.  Now imagine how much work it would be to stick a train line through the suburb to link up with the other train lines through Cardiff that were ploughed through in Victorian times when no-one gave a shit about the poor people.

What’s even sadder is that there was a swathe of countryside between here and the place with the railway line and they couldn’t even leave a gap for a future link just in case.  So now the ten thousand of us who live out here face tortuous bus service or we drive.  Remedying this ongoing planning ****-up is nearly impossible in the current political climate.  You can come up with the ideas but you can’t get people to vote for them.

We were outside our hotel when one came to drop a passenger off and we stood Infront of the car to see what happened and it would not drive off untill we moved.

I’ve just come through a mainline London station which has a robot cleaning machine. About waist height to an adult, a big boxy vacuum cleaner type thing that moves slowly around the place with cameras and sensors.

It reached a floor-standing advertising hoarding with a picture of a man on it, paused and then its robotic voice said “excuse me please, stand back”. Maybe it recognised the shape of a person and just assumed it was real?

It repeated this a couple of times and when the advertising hoarding (unsurprisingly) didn’t move, it seemed slightly put out, paused for a moment then turned around and slid off elsewhere.

What a lot of commentators here seem to ignore that (particularly in cities) autonomous electric vehicles will drive a paradigm shift in urban transport.  There will no longer be a need to own a car.  Car usage will be much cheaper without the need to own a car.  Cars can be small and basic without the need to have all the frills and shit that increases weight and bulk to get people to buy the latest thing

This is not autonomous cars replacing the way we currently use cars, this will engender a paradigm shift in urban transport creating less congestion, less harm and less cost

We need a car for a journey – say to get the weekly shopping?  Call one up on an app on your phone, go outside and tell it to go to the supermarket.  Call up another to get home.  While you are in the supermarket the car is off doing another trip instead of sitting in a car park

This is not autonomous cars replacing the way we currently use cars, this will engender a paradigm shift in urban transport creating less congestion

I agree, and this is what I was trying to say earlier.  Robotaxis could be basic cheap cars since you are only doing a short trip in it, and because each one doesn’t have to fund someone’s livelihood they can be deployed differently – they can allocate themselves to certain areas where they’re likely to be needed. This would make it really easy for me to summon a car from my phone and have it there in a few minutes – or I could walk towards it and it meets me etc.  I reckon people might still want their own cars, but these things would be so easy you’d just jump in one and use that and it would be actually easier than using your own car. You don’t have to find a place to park or walk back to it when you’re done with whatever.

Of course they would need to be integrated with mass transit, for example I’d get one down to the train station a few miles away, from my door when I need it.  If it weren’t integrated we would end up with massive traffic jams of robotaxis and it would be rubbish.

The deer example above is terrible.  You’re assuming you’re better than a LIDAR system at spotting marginal stuff in the dark.  I doubt that you are, and the example of whether it’s deer, dogs, small children on space hoppers or drunk cyclists isn’t relevant.

This is a conspiracy theory/technology fear thread.  People in general like to laugh at such threads, forums, but here we are

Well, a LIDAR system can only see what’s actually in front of the vehicle, it almost certainly won’t pick up a fleeting glimpse of light from a moving animal in a field the other side of a six foot high hedge, the gap is the width of a tractor, the deer were travelling at an angle across the field towards another narrow gap in the corner of the field. LIDAR systems aren’t even fully developed yet anyway.

Aerial view of the actual road and field, I was traveling from the left, at roughly 30-40, the road actually has a 60 limit, the actual chance of spotting the brief flash of reflected light from a deer travelling almost as fast as I was through the tiny gap must be tiny; it’s only due to the fact that I’ve driven that road countless times over many years, and seen deer come through the access gaps that now make me very, very wary when driving it, especially in the dark.

I dunno, a taxi driven by computer can only be safer than the current crop of taxi drivers who have seventeen phones scattered around the steering wheel, the seat so low they can’t see out anyway, a total disregard for any road laws or driving standards, an internal sat nav that instinctively knows the best traffic jam to sit in, a pathological dislike for vulnerable road users, and an attitude that regular maintenance and testing is below them

I for one would be glad to see the back of the Addison Lee or whatever they are now minicabs. They used to all chaos around in Toyota Prius’, it’s all about the Kia Nero. You can spot them a mile off, unable or unwilling to use one lane at a time and best avoided.

Of course they would need to be integrated with mass transit, for example I’d get one down to the train station a few miles away, from my door when I need it.  If it weren’t integrated we would end up with massive traffic jams of robotaxis and it would be rubbish.

Sadly I have a feeling I know what’ll happen of the two scenarios.

I may have come across as anti self driving cars, but I’d love it. I could have had a kip whilst taking half an hour to join the A3 from the M25 today.

What a lot of commentators here seem to ignore that (particularly in cities) autonomous electric vehicles will drive a paradigm shift in urban transport.  There will no longer be a need to own a car.

There is arguably already no need to own a car, it is a choice (one I have made and can change at any time).

Car usage will be much cheaper without the need to own a car.

Will it? The favoured model seems to be “Johnny Cabs for everyone” a Taxi without the driver, that vehicle still cost it’s owner’s money, it still has running costs and overheads and the price per mile I travel as a hypothetical customer needs to bear all of that plus a profit margin… A bit like existing meat sack operated taxis.

 Cars can be small and basic without the need to have all the frills and shit that increases weight and bulk to get people to buy the latest thing

Sure, capitalism will shun optional extras and luxury features that they can mark up on the spec sheet…

This is not autonomous cars replacing the way we currently use cars, this will engender a paradigm shift in urban transport creating less congestion, less harm and less cost

I feel like the internet should ban the use of the phase “paradigm shift” more than once by any user in a 24hr period. But if you understand that to mean a fundamental change, in an already very car-centric culture, will somehow happen because FSD/AV is available, I’m not seeing it. Less congestion? When your Robo taxis are charging about the place at rush hour to maximise their number of pickups? Owned or hired all of the visions offered (by the companies that want our money for their concept products) all still seem very focussed on the idea of individuals and small groups in Car type vehicles, just without the driving, all of the underlying problems with cars are still there…

We need a car for a journey – say to get the weekly shopping?  Call one up on an app on your phone, go outside and tell it to go to the supermarket.  Call up another to get home.  While you are in the supermarket the car is off doing another trip instead of sitting in a car park

What you’ve described there is currently known as a Taxi (or an Uber in some parts), you could be a smidge more efficient and use a bus to travel to the shops (when you’re unladen) and a Taxi to get home after, or even (God forbid) bicycles if you’re not buying huge quantities (these can be purchased or hired these days I hear)… I’m not sure what value a self driving Taxi really adds to the scenario beyond it’s owner needing to recover the additional cost of the FSD systems, offset against employing a stinky human being. I’m aware that People seem to think FSD improves safety (or will) but the evidence to date doesn’t seem to support that, and I’m not booking a Robo Taxi till it actually does…

Call one up on an app on your phone, go outside and tell it to go to the supermarket.

My taxi arrives, I get in, and the seats are covered in dog hair, melted ice cream and vomit from the previous occupants. Now what do I do?

I’m not seeing it.

Because there will be no need to own a car. shared ownership is much cheaper than sole ownership.  these will also be more convenient as no need to find parking, get them services, etc etc

My taxi arrives, I get in, and the seats are covered in dog hair, melted ice cream and vomit from the previous occupants. Now what do I do?

You report it.  another one arrives, the previous user gets fined.  Just like car clubs at the moment.  It is very rare that it happens.

I’m not sure what value a self driving Taxi really adds to the scenario

Cheapness, convenience, safety

As I said – it will force that paradigm shift in how cars are used 🙂
(its more than 24 hours)  🙂

You report it.  another one arrives, the previous user gets fined.  Just like car clubs at the moment.  It is very rare that it happens.

Or you’ll never even know it happened, because the autonomous vehicle will identify the mess itself, order your replacement vehicle, bill the previous customer and take itself off to the depot to be cleaned.

Who are these people who are going to be overfeeding hairy dogs with ice cream in taxis anyway? Won’t they be too busy jumping in front of autonomous vehicles all day?

Don’t forget that Elon hates public transport Any Utopian dreams anyone has of utilitarian transport can be binned off right now. The idea that these will be some sort of mass transport revolution is not the future that Tesla has in mind.

Cheapness,

It’ll either cost the same or more, there’s still greedy humans somewhere in that supply chain that will want their margin, no matter who owns what.

convenience,

You’ll summon transport from a mobile phone, already a thing.

safety

TBC (at best). Even with all the deck stacking they currently do the tech-Bro’s aren’t exactly demonstrating flawless safety for the technology.

I honestly just think FSD/AV is a scam to extend car dependency and paper over the glaring issues with our current car-centric culture, the promise that even if you don’t own one there’s still going to be a hire car ready and waiting on demand means an at least an equivalent level of vehicles on the road and infrastructure to support them…

We could go in circles but I think it’s fair to say we’ve made our points now, you see the convenience as worthwhile and believe profit focussed businesses can deliver SIL rated complex systems for a target price. I am focussed (perhaps a bit much?) on the problems which FSD/AV doesn’t seem to actually be solving. I guess we’ll find out in a couple of decades…

As I said – it will force that paradigm shift in how cars are used ?

Spoiler alert.

It won’t. Cars need to move to a model of shared ownership for any number of reasons but the best, easiest, cheapest, most reliable system is simply a Car Club arrangement. No need for AV nonsense, no need for cars that drive themselves around waiting for their next pick up.

Just a scheme that replicates the dockless bike hire model but for cars. Anything else is massively overcomplicating the issue.

I’m curious as to what people think public transport in low population areas looks like in the future if it isn’t an ‘on demand’ shared vehicle?

I’m curious as to what people think public transport in low population areas looks like in the future if it isn’t an ‘on demand’ shared vehicle?

Busses and Trains?

Imagine if the money being spunked at Johnny cabs were instead spent on boring old public transport, including for lower population, rural areas?

I honestly just think FSD/AV is a scam to extend car dependency and paper over the glaring issues with our current car-centric culture, the promise that even if you don’t own one there’s still going to be a hire car ready and waiting on demand means an at least an equivalent level of vehicles on the road and infrastructure to support them…

This! ^^

Well said. The current “scam” is EV. Yep, we can all carry on driving as we are, we don’t need to change anything, we can keep building roads cos we’ll all be in EV and there’ll be no pollution*

The next scam, once everyone owns an EV but is still sitting in gridlock traffic, is to sell AV as a concept/subscription model. If we all give up our cars, we can summon an AV instantly.

EV and AV are not here to make your life more convenient or to save the planet. They’re here to save the auto industry.

*Meaning no direct tailpipe emissions but conveniently ignoring the lithium mining…

Oh dear, a sure sign someone has lost the plot when they start calling people they disagree with Sheeple.

Doesn’t automatically mean they’re wrong though. The amount of money people chose to spend on their cars is baffling to some of us.

But instead you have, as people often do, chosen to insult the human rather than engage with their point.

The point may or may not be valid, but how about trying to discuss it rather than dismiss it out of hand because of one of the words they used.

There’s a secondary psychological thing in that “the public” in trains, planes etc are not in control whereas in their own private car they believe themselves to be in control (and most people believe themselves to be above average drivers) so they’re usually more accommodating of autonomy/AI in their own car than they would be if it were in a plane.

im not convinced that the public care about train drivers being automated.  Obviously that would change if trains started crashing more due to software flaws but the barrier in my mind to automated trains is not the passengers – it’s the drivers who being very unionised will refuse to drive the old trains if their jobs are at risk (the irony being that one of the main downsides of human train drivers is they can go on strike / work to rule etc).  Presumably on detecting a system fault an automated train just shutdown and an engineer comes out.  Thats a bit more difficult for an aircraft at 30000 ft.

Crazy-legs – Edinburgh has had a car club for years.  It’s quite good.  It’s ideal for people who occasionally need a car for a short period.  But it doesn’t collect you at your door, it doesn’t park itself (or go and do other useful work) when you get to your destination.   The vehicles are based at fixed locations and can’t move themselves to area of high demand.  Like any hire vehicle there is a little bit of faff in checking / familiarising with controls / working out the unlock arrangement on this vehicle etc.  I have no doubt that there is a market for on demand AVs.

Don’t forget that Elon hates public transport Any Utopian dreams anyone has of utilitarian transport can be binned off right now. The idea that these will be some sort of mass transport revolution is not the future that Tesla has in mind.

I know some people think Elon is some kind of messiah, but he’s not the only innovative disruptor “in town”.  It very much IS in the Uber plans.  Uber have already done more to disrupt consumer transport than Tesla and would love to get rid of the biggest headache in their operation – the drivers.

But instead you have, as people often do, chosen to insult the human rather than engage with their point.

Ironic you say this when by calling people with a different viewpoint “Sheeple” the poster had based their argument on denigrating and insulting them.

I dunno, a taxi driven by computer can only be safer than the current crop of taxi drivers who have seventeen phones scattered around the steering wheel, the seat so low they can’t see out anyway, a total disregard for any road laws or driving standards, an internal sat nav that instinctively knows the best traffic jam to sit in, a pathological dislike for vulnerable road users, and an attitude that regular maintenance and testing is below them.

that’s the problem isn’t it?  People don’t really understand statistics and risk so to convince the public, or even regulators or legislators that AVs are safe you need to convince them not that they are safer than idiot humans but that they are better than the best driver.  Count Zero is a great example of this – he wants the car to anticipate a particular unique experience that he happened to avoid but which plenty of other drivers would probably fail to, and perhaps even he would fail to if the weather/deer/etc had been slightly different on the day.

by the way – I suspect AVs can be that safe already… but they would achieve it by stopping and saying “unable to proceed due to hazards ahead”.  They won’t have the human ability to realise that eg bumping up a kerb might be wrong, but might occasionally be the least worst option, or that squeezing through a gap below official tolerance at walking speed is ok etc.

It very much IS in the Uber plans.

I will bet money that Tesla will not let Uber use their cars in any plan Uber may have for driver-less transport schemes. Tesla might have their own scheme (I doubt it) what I think they’ll aim for is lobbying for separated traffic and regulation for their cars over and above other self-driving and possibly human driven vehicles. Elon is not about sharing, he’s very much for individualism, and where he goes, the other makers will follow

we have seen two ( at least) major shifts in transporting of people.

1) the advent of railways.  Prior to that people lived worked and died in a small area. Now they could travel.  One branch of my family never left the parish until the railways arrived

2) the advent of cheap reliable cars in the post war years.  This allowed a much increased mobility around and led to huge changes in society.

I believe self driving cars have the potential to produce changes in society at least as radical and that these changes will produce all sorts of secondary effects in the way society works

This is not a next year or even 5 years timescale but over 30 – 50 years

EV and AV are not here to make your life more convenient or to save the planet. They’re here to save the auto industry

If the auto industry are making and selling EVs to save their industry, can you explain to me why they’re being heavily fined in the UK if they don’t sell them?

What you’ve described there is currently known as a Taxi (or an Uber in some parts)

What you (and a huge number of entrepreneurs) overlook is that often not the principle that makes an idea successful, it’s the execution.  When there are loads of options, sometimes people gravitate towards one for the silliest reasons.  I would much prefer a self driving pod to a taxi, and I suspect I am not alone.  Why?  Because taxi drivers often drive badly and make me feel ill, they have the heat on too high, their car smells funny, they try and talk to me, they don’t know where they are going, and the fact you’re in someone else’s car with them is a little bit stressful on some basic level.  On top of that, taxi pods are likely to have less wait and be much cheaper.  It costs about £15 to get to town from here via taxi – that’s out of the question unless I am on expenses.

EV and AV are not here to make your life more convenient or to save the planet. They’re here to save the auto industry.

The auto industry doesn’t need saving, as we are all driving cars in high volumes already.  Specific manufacturers might though.

In any case, EVs are going to help save the planet.  Restructuring our society and city design is very much needed, but it’s extremely difficult at this point, if not impossible.  Switching to EVs though is going to save a huge amount of CO2 and is really pretty easy to do.  Working out what to do for an extra hour on a 11 hour trip is not that hard of a problem to solve, but rebuilding society in a new utopian image? That is.

Of course, we absolutely should be working hard towards societal change for many many reasons, but whilst that struggle is going on you can still buy an EV when you need a new car.