Secondary school allocations….grrr

Who the **** decides these things ? We live a 60 second walk away from a secondary school.
This school was top of the list of choices for our son, one of the reasons being good SEN support ( let’s call it mild autism, but he’s mainstream), as well as the obvious closeness.
The wife is distraught at the prospect of the school he has been allocated ( probably 3/4 mile away across 2 busy roads). It has a very poor reputation generally, more so with its SEN provision.
Living so close to the school we see the kids being shipped in by car everyday.
In my elder sons case ( he went to this school),some of his friends lived anything up to 2 miles away !
I’m guessing it’s something to do with limited SEN places, but Jesus , life’s hard as it is for the kid , without now having to go to a school that none of his close friend are going to ( they got into the one by us)
Looks like it might be home schooling in September. That didn’t go down too well a couple of years ago though ( for us , not him 😂😂)

The system doesn’t really work. Youve got no more chance than anyone else effectively (within the catchment) and all the multi kid families already there do as you know. We chose to send ours to a more obscure school out in the sticks, undersubscribed at the time in order to avoid the local lottery. It means a longer day for the kids but it’s a good school, just remote and hence struggled for numbers. However since then it’s become fully subscribed and the village it’s in is getting a massive estate built that will mean more pressure so I face the challenge of getting #2 in when he finishes primary, as we’re outside the catchment. You can’t win I’m afraid.

Good luck, I hope it all works out. One consolation is that not going to the same school as most of your friends is no impediment, I did it (I knew just 1 person on day 1) and now so has my daughter, although it turned out half a dozen kids from her year ended up there wnrn it all shook out.

There should be an appeals process, my experience of SEN education is that the parents who shout loudest get heard the most and the use of solicitors amps this up significantly. If he has a formal diagnosis / EHCP lead with these.

As above, look into the appeals process and be quite active. A friend has been through this. They got given their 4th choice school but eventually ended up with their 2nd choice. There will be lots of shuffling going on.

Who the **** decides these things ?

It’ll be published on the admissions procedure but that’ll be pretty similar to all the other schools. No-one ‘decides’ really, it’s then all computerised

Assuming not a selective religious intake, it’ll then be kids with varying learning needs / looked after, kids with siblings at the school, and proximity is then somewhere down the list. Although I’m surprised if living that close you lose out, it can happen with a lot of siblings.

You either have to game the system and get a proper SEN statement. Or should have not had the gap between kids, etc. Not saying it’s right, but that’s what you have to do. Appeal though, places do become available and you might be able to get an idea where you are below the line.

Last bit and harsh truth. The system we’re advising how to defeat is then perpetuating the issue. Does the school have poor SEN because everyone with SEN goes to the good school, hence SEN not a priority?

Are results poor because high achieving kids tend to (not exclusively) come from wealthier families that live in the best catchment areas and employ lawyers to do their appeals.

Unless we let our kids go to these schools and then demand the opportunities and provision of support that they get elsewhere these schools will remain below ideal

This’ll test our supposed left leaning credentials. All good on paper, but not for my kids 😉

(we got given 4th choice, on appeal got rejected but then via waiting list got moved into 3rd. I didn’t pay a solicitor though. Two kids through now, both had issues from time to time they may not have had at the nicer school in the posher catchment area, but do you know what … I think they’re stronger and better people as a result)

Assuming not a selective religious intake, it’ll then be kids with varying learning needs / looked after, kids with siblings at the school, and proximity is then somewhere down the list

For us catchment is straight after siblings, but your eligibility is further determined by your crow flies distance from the school whilst also being in the catchment area. This caught us out on my son’s infant school, as while we are less than 500m from the school, the catchment has a weird boundary that follows the centre of a road and we’re on the wrong side of the road. Managed to get in for his year, as it was undersubscribed, but my daughter couldn’t. By that point my son was at a different junior, which also had an infant, and is the one we are actually in the catchment for even though it’s further, so only one trip to school required.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a8563b26-3b49-45d6-ad76-b9b9295ec652?shareToken=d1ef7102fffbd94bb9f9aeb125ffc998

Article in the Times on how to appeal.

some areas deliberately avoid sending kids to just the nearest school and raffle places instead to avoid “getto”ing of schools in pooerer areas. Dunno if that’s the case near you, but the overall outcomes of the policy seem positive even if the individual outcomes may be poorer

Gutted for you OP. Does your lad actually have a diagnosis and EHCP?

My boy has got into the school two mins walk away, they had told us it was guaranteed because he was so close.

Still sitting waiting here, first choice is 1.1 miles away which as we are in London means it’s the 5th closest school to our house and on an average year we would be 0.2 miles out of catchment. Second choice is about 0.1 miles from the house and we are probably in the 100 closest houses to it so should get in there fine. Filled up the other 4 choices just in case but would be amazed.

As above, appeal, ask to be put on a waiting list, periodically ring up to make sure they didn’t clear the waiting list. Works better at primary schools when more kids move in and our though

Not all schools are catchment based, which is how you can end up not getting in to a school on your doorstep.

It’s worth keeping your son on the list at your preferred school: our daughter got a place at our first choice about a month after term started. Of course, it’s an upheaval and you have to buy another uniform.

What do people think about school choice – was it better back in the day where catchment area determined school (essentially primary school catchment as it flowed through), or is an, albeit flawed, system of choice better ?

I don’t have kids so never had to go through it.

Tough question, no kids here. Choice in theory allows people to choose the most suitable school, but if in practice there’s a single choice axis of “best to worst” it sounds bad for premium-ghetto segregation and social mobility etc.

But everyone wants the best for their kids (don’t blame them), even if often it’s at the expense of other people’s kids and society. Social mobility means kids can go down too, can’t have that can we.

Hope you get a resolution OP.

Gutted for you OP. Does your lad actually have a diagnosis and EHCP?

He was diagnosed at an early age ( around 2) and we had great support with 1:1 at nursery and had a couple of well supported years in key stage 1 .
Then it all went to shit with quite frankly appalling SEN provision at his school. Finally got a decent SEN lead last year , who has unfortunately left due to personal reasons. Probably something to do with being spread between 4 schools in the group and also being expected to teach to cover absent staff. He has not been given an EHCP as he is not deemed as being bad enough to have one 🙄
We have been asking for a copy of his ICP for months now , and are fed up with promises of support being made but not fulfilled.
Another parent in the same boat complained about this higher up which triggered an ofstead investigation . They have put in place a team to provide support , but seeing as this is made up of teachers, the head and deputy , no one is holding out much hope as they have their day jobs to do.
My wife has been in contact with the school we want him to go to and he is third on the waiting list , so holding out some hope there. Apparently we have to build a case, and present to a panel if we get that far. I just want to present my son to them and let them explain why he has to go to a school where he doesn’t know anyone . As far as I’m concerned , current school needs to step up and get involved . The SEN lead who left had indicated that the school we want him to go to would be the best to fulfill his needs.
Oh and apparently living 100 metres from the school is irrelevant if you live to the left of the school 🙄

Should be nice and simple. You don’t bloody chose but go to your local school. I’ll make allowances and agree to going out of area for limited numbers eg travelling to a grammar school as the dimwits in power have chopped most of them.,

We got ours late last night.  We’ve been lucky, our daughters in the top girls school in the borough, and very high up the England league table.

I must admit to having a dusty moment last night.  There are times when despite the unwritten rules and effort of bringing up kids for years you feel you’ve actually done something right by your children with a little bit of luck thrown in.  This is one of those moments I’m very grateful for.

As above though, this means a 20 minute journey each way on a London Bus for her, it’s going to be tough letting go to see my little 11yo girl doing that on her own (we will go with her the first few times).

Not meant to be harsh – “critical friend” advice

Apparently we have to build a case, and present to a panel if we get that far.

https://www.gov.uk/schools-admissions/appealing-a-schools-decision

Link with process and prioritisation.

I just want to present my son to them and let them explain why he has to go to a school where he doesn’t know anyone . As far as I’m concerned , current school needs to step up and get involved .

No on both counts. First wouldn’t be allowed, second; if they haven’t already then they won’t or even if they did now it’ll almost certainly be disregarded.

The process is very factual; first bit is around whether the admissions criteria is right and followed properly. If not, then your appeal has to be allowed. There’s links in the website above to what is considered legit.

So in respect of

apparently living 100 metres from the school is irrelevant if you live to the left of the school

there has to be more to it than that and if you want any proper advice you need to say what their criteria really is. Because it won’t be that and if it was then it would have been challenged before and changed. If it’s on their criteria, however it’s written, I’m pretty sure it’s enforceable. But if you don’t, pay for a specialist solicitor to confirm it and you’re home and hosed.

So then to your SEN needs – in that case you have to persuade the panel that your reasons for your child to be admitted outweigh the school’s reasons for not admitting any more children at all, and TBH without documented statements, etc. you run the risk of coming across as someone making excuses that the panel won’t like (IME – my daughter’s appeal wasn’t around SEN, rather that she really struggled and got frustrated by low level disruption in class, and would shut down and not participate as well; the school she was assigned had this as a problem in their OFSTED. The panel asked if there was any diagnosis, etc., of ADHD or similar, I had to say no, and I got pretty firmly put back in my box – ‘so she’s no different to the majority of children in that respect then?’)

The SEN lead who left had indicated that the school we want him to go to would be the best to fulfill his needs.

is not the same as other schools won’t fulfill his needs, and I suspect won’t sway the panel that letting him in is more important than any other similar (in their evidence driven eyes) kid, or more important than the school not exceeding their PAN

Good news though…. being third on the wait list, I’d be relatively confident enough will happen between now and Sept/Oct to get above the cut anyway. Stay close, make friends with the school secretary for updates (definitely don’t try to appeal direct, you’ll really piss them off and the school sec is almost as powerful as the Head!! – my wife now works in the school my two ended up at) and be prepared to switch even after term starts if needs be and you really want to.

Imagine being the allocations people. Whole thing is a nightmare.

Do you simply do on proximity (so have the property hotpots and folk renting/faking)? Or

some areas deliberately avoid sending kids to just the nearest school and raffle places

Which is why it’s traffic carnage around them.

Saw K57’s post after my long one. Good news

it’s going to be tough letting go to see my little 11yo girl doing that on her own (we will go with her the first few times).

NO!!!!!!!!

Kids are brutal, that minor indiscretion will haunt her for the whole of school life. Especially if you hold her hand all the way to the gate as well!!

We live practically next to a shiny new school set up by pushy parents in about 2018 IIRC, that kicked it off as an academy and then hoovered up LEA budget

But it turns out we’re not actually in catchment, the rougher estate a bit further over is. Turns out they also have extra SEN provision, primarily for all the bonus emotionally disturbed kids you get by targeting deprived areas. Despite having fistfuls of cash thrown at it the schools performance hasn’t been stellar and the head has changed twice as I understand it.

We were unimpressed when we visited and finally decided to bus our kids several miles out of catchment to a school with crumbling buildings but a far more positive culture that draws most of its catchment from local villages (a more middle class demographic basically), and recent results have bourne that choice out.

We were bloody lucky to get in there too, they’ve been over-subscribed since our eldest got in and other parents in the area spotted the school on league tables and that they’d aced their recent Ofsteding.

There’s a limit to what you can get for your kids from comprehensive education but you can at least shop about, geography isn’t the only determining factor.

Not wanting to be harsh but none of the admission criteria should be a surprise as it is very detailed in advance for all schools. Catchment areas (so you would have known you lived outside) and the hierarchy of SEN, siblings etc. are published.

The only unknown is how many applicants you are competing with and how close you need to be…

I empathise quite a lot here – we went through the same last year. I 100% agree with everything theotherjonv has said though. Every case is different, but the first hurdle is to demonstrate that the admissions criteria were not applied correctly. If you get through that, then you go to the appeals panel. This is just you and the panel – no presence from either the school or the child. In our case the panel was conducted through Teams (yay!). We were successful. As qwerty says in the third post, if you have an EHCP, lead with this. Our argument was based on the timing of our childs formal autism diagnosis (between completing the application form for school entry and getting the decision), combined with the management of his CAMHS referral and EHCP by his primary school – in essence, if things had been managed better he would have had the diagnosis before we applied and the original decision would have been different. It was a similar position to yours in that the school he was initially allocated to was further away than the one we appealed, and none of his close friends from primary school were going to it (90% of his primary class went to the one he got in to on appeal). We also made arguments with regard to getting to and from school (the nearer school being safer as he could walk with friends), but these were secondary to the argument about the original decision being different. It might have helped that the school we appealed to was mentioned specifically in a report alongside his formal diagnosis as being appropriate for his SEN needs.
At the end of the day, you need to give them the evidence they need to change their decision, and evidence = facts.

Catchment areas (so you would have known you lived outside) and the hierarchy of SEN, siblings etc. are published.

The only unknown is how many applicants you are competing with and how close you need to be…

510 applications for 220 places
Apparently they start at the coastline and sweep up toward the school for the “catchment” area. We of course live on the “other” side. I’m looking at the school now as I type .
Missed out on the sibling thing by 1 year as his brother left last July 🙄
Booked a meeting with the SEN team next week to find out what supporting documentation they can provide / have given.
I’m going with the positive that being third on the list is a good thing , however if kids move into the area with a higher need he could go down the list. And also advised to keep the offer of the other school as if it goes , then the closest school is in the next town over 5 miles away !

And still they build more and more homes with no new infrastructure to support them.

Fingers crossed

Catchment areas (so you would have known you lived outside)

in our case , looking at the catchment area map in their admissions policy, we are right bang smack in the middle of it. Someone has decided to start at one side of the boundary and work back in to the middle.
Funnily enough , trying to find a map of the catchment area for the school he has been allocated has proved fruitless, so can’t even check if we are even in it for a bit more ammo

Someone has decided to start at one side of the boundary and work back in to the middle.

Are you saying they haven’t measured home to school distance for all ‘within catchment’ applicants, then filled places nearest first until they’re full?

I’m trying to imagine this

Apparently they start at the coastline and sweep up toward the school for the “catchment” area. We of course live on the “other” side. I’m looking at the school now as I type .

can you say what school?

In my mind it then makes it the last school before the coast and so you have to give preferential treatment to those between the school and the sea, they can hardly go in the other direction! [edit – maybe not have to – but have chosen to, and probably could be challenged on that if they didn’t] And if they don’t get this school they’ll be travelling out past the school and past you on the other side. So while they may not technically be closer to the school than you are; they’re (considerably) further away from the next school than you are.

Is that right? Because if so doesn’t seem unreasonable and IMHO you’ll struggle to persuade the panel their interpretation of catchment areas and proximities is wrong.

Trying to be positive – I wrote on the basis of getting a teacher to support your application (won’t happen and wouldn’t matter to the panel anyway) but if as NS suggests you can get an ICP out of your primary school and make the case that it should have been assessed as part of the application but the school let you down you might have a chance. Having been told he doesn’t warrant an ECHP, not sure if that can be reviewed similarly and if so added to the case.

Are you saying they haven’t measured home to school distance for all ‘within catchment’ applicants, then filled places nearest first until they’re full?

as per my post, if I’ve interpreted correctly then I suspect the admissions policy gives preferential treatment to those between school and coast and distance is secondary.

Which makes

apparently living 100 metres from the school is irrelevant if you live to the left of the school  🙄

not exactly representative of the situation.

Yes @theotherjonv accomodating kids with no other choice makes sense in that scenario. Having been through similar last year (in a city) we discovered that being in a catchment means **** all if more folk live nearer. She now walks past the local one to hers twice as far away…

So while they may not technically be closer to the school than you are; they’re (considerably) further away from the next school than you are

If memory serves, our council’s criteria (for primary) was distance to the chosen school minus distance to the nearest school for this reason. Not sure what they did if they then had the school oversubscribed by kids for whom this was zero.

Woo hoo , we won the appeal to get him into the school he wanted. The wife came into my office in tears earlier after making the phone call to find out the decision, so naturally I braced myself for bad news. Turns out it was tears of joy ( and relief).
Thank to her for all her hard work and to the panel who overturned the schools decision.
Onwards and upwards

good news. On what basis?

Brilliant news!

Does your son now have an EHCP or have you started the process for provision? We found that having one essentially meant we could dictate which school he went to & they’d have to accommodate. We live 50m outside of the catchment for our desired school which has extensive  SEN provision – in particular it has a discrete unit dedicated to providing support to ASD-diagnosed pupils. All three kids attend a feeder primary which is next door to it, so it makes sense for him to attend there. Having the EHCP allowed us to bypass the regular admissions process and, with the help of the council SEN team, simply book a place in the school.

good news. On what basis?

we get a letter on Thursday I believe , explaining everything. The call was just a matter of yes or no if you couldn’t wait to know .

Hmmm EHCP. Current school was very reluctant to get involved in him getting one. To the point where the SEN lead said they weren’t worth the paper they were written on 🤷‍♂️. I’m not really allowed to talk to grown ups at the school as I tend to tell it how it is ( or how I see it anyway) . Hence why my wife has done a sterling job of dealing with all this 😁

said SEN lead left the school a while ago and has not been replaced ( she covered several schools in the group). Now the head , deputy head and a few teachers are having to organise things. Whilst trying to do their own jobs at the same time . Complete shambles

What was your appeal based on then?

The Scottish system has it’s flaws but one of its great positives is that pretty much everyone just goes to their local school.

What was your appeal based on then?

mainly the SEN issues. We also highlighted that at the other school they have mixed ability classes ( similar to current setup at primary). At the school we want him to go to the classes are based on ability. He often shuts down because he sees himself as dumb as the other kids are “better” than him. He is a whizz with the maths though (although he struggles with accepting praise). The other school has major issues with bullying , drugs , poor SEN support  where kids are punished wrongly due to things they do linked to their autism. ( real issues from local online support support groups not just hearsay). You are not allowed to slag off the other school during your appeal hence why I was kept away from the zooms 😂.

We did have some nice statements from his primary, that said he had a better chance of thriving with the set up of the school he is going to , along with being amongst his friends who are going there .

It’s really upsetting how different SEN support can be between teachers within a school, between schools, between councils. A SENDCo should be a role for a person who understands differing needs, a kind, conscientious, diligent individual. My son’s autism is pretty high functioning, but he has issues around sensory input, loud noises, transitions. At his previous primary school the sendco was a witch. A proper evil Ms Trunchbowl character that I seriously considered doing physical harm to following an incident where she couldn’t motivate my son.

I won’t go into details but we pulled him and his siblings from the school the next day, found a different school, in a different county with a totally different approach (different council primary recommended by his forest school leader, by some miracle they had three places). He went overnight from being a little boy terrified of school, reluctant to get out of bed, out the door, to someone who literally skips to the car every morning. Truly transformational. Cost an absolute fortune as we had to move house and in the meantime we had a 12mile each way school run for about a year, but ultimately the best thing we’ve ever done for our kids. Then we discovered the supporting SEND team in the council were utterly brilliant – dedicated, caring, knowledgeable, showed us how to play the system to get the best outcomes all round. Couldn’t want for more.

This disparity between the new council and the old, who basically closed ranks to support the witch was disturbing. We’re fortunate, we had a good income to fund the move, have flexible jobs, I’m bold and cocky won’t be told no by people supposedly in authority. What happens if you’re not like that, think that playing the system is somehow wrong, are subservient to officials and their judgement?